Hella LED Luminator driving lamps…cool!

LEDBE
Hmmm. I wonder what LED's they are using, and what the output is, realistically. Neat idea.
 
Yes, the Cadillac Escalade Platinum Edition has all-LED headlamps from Hella. These headlamps have come up before; they were discussed in a thread in which someone disbelieved the necessity for extensive thermal management in present LED headlamps.
 
someone disbelieved the necessity for extensive thermal management in present LED headlamps.
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The design parameters for thermal management of LED headlamps is no different than thermal management for any other LED device. It's an engineering problem, not a technical problem, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop claiming otherwise simply because BMW/Audi/Mercedes, etc. aren't owning the technology. If anything the thermal lifespan of an LED platform can be more readily determined with a simple multimeter and temp probe unlike a halogen or HID bulb where lifespan and spectral performance varies from bulb to bulb. I also recall you stating in other threads that the lack of thermal produced by LED's represented a problem in snow / ice, so, which is it? In Cree lumens I've calulated the surface area for simple wrap around headlamps could produce lumen values over 1,500 at 115F ambient, which is well beyond what the best halogens can achieve, especially photopic. This is entirely passive and doesn't assume anything internal aiding thermal transfer.

Like anything else in the automotive industry LED add-ons are going to be treated as any boutique item that dealers can make a quick buck off of. Current Halogen / HID fixtures are injection molded for a coupla buck in Mexico or Asia, and you can't make LED's head lamp fixtures this cheap, so we have the high price tags. Plus, the optical designs for these current lamps are primitive and based on flashlight params. They are meant to draw as much if not more attention to the vehicle and not be practical. The last two high end Escalades I saw also had spinning hub caps - go figure.

Strangely, biking enthusiasts are building more efficient and likely better color rendering LED lights for off road use. Some are likely brighter than your stock European halogen.
 
Blasterman,

Ice and snow will build up on my Truck-Lite LED spots and floods pictured here but not my JW Speaker headlights; the Speakers have a fan in front of the heatsink that blows warm air to the lens through a passage.

TruckLiteDrivingLites010.jpg
 
blasterman said:
I also recall [it stated] in other threads that the lack of thermal produced by LED's represented a problem in snow / ice, so, which is it?
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It's both. The LED needs to be kept cool enough to not burn up (with the majority of the heat they emit is at the rear of the LED, not out the front), and that heat must be moved to where it can defrost the lamps. Whether this is done with simple fans and ducts, or with heat pipes, or through elfin magic (but not Elven magic, which requires passing a saving throw).

The automotive environment is harsh and unforgiving. 115F ambient temperature is scarcely extreme, considering the variety of locations cars are operated; -40F (-40C for those who prefer to work with the metric system) is also not unheard of, albeit rare.

Then there's the wide variances in humidity (dry, still air is an insulator) that can change the performance of simple ducting/venting of heat. Dust in the air can collect in passageways, clinging to condensation. Fans can fail. Heat pipes can fail. Elfin magic can fail. All these things make thermal management a problem (whether it's an 'engineering' or 'technical' problem is a distinction I choose to blur).
 
blasterman said:
The design parameters for thermal management of LED headlamps is no different than thermal management for any other LED device.
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Who's ever seriously and knowledgeably debated this…?

It's an engineering problem, not a technical problem
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It's both, actually. Remember, automotive service means constraining factors of cost and packaging and physical and environmental robustness come into play; they have a way of making technical problems that wouldn't exist without those constraints.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop claiming otherwise simply because BMW/Audi/Mercedes, etc. aren't owning the technology.
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I'm not sure how to respond to this because it's unclear what you mean by it.

I also recall you stating in other threads that the lack of thermal produced by LED's represented a problem in snow / ice, so, which is it?
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It's both, actually. The challenge is to move heat from the backs of the emitters (where it does harm) to the front lens of the headlamp (for thawing)…and to do it as effectively, simply, reliably, durably, inexpensively, compactly, and cost-effectively as required by the specific parameters of the lamp and vehicle being designed.

In Cree lumens I've calulated the surface area for simple wrap around headlamps could produce lumen values over 1,500 at 115F ambient, which is well beyond what the best halogens can achieve, especially photopic. This is entirely passive and doesn't assume anything internal aiding thermal transfer.
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Those are nice numbers. Perhaps you can explain, with support for your assertions, why today's best LED headlamps (e.g., Mercedes and Audi) don't approach your calculated numbers and do require specific design features and components for thermal management.

Like anything else in the automotive industry LED add-ons are going to be treated as any boutique item that dealers can make a quick buck off of.
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It will probably be more productive if we keep the focus of this discussion on OE headlamps and other serious products without looking at aftermarket toys and fashion accessories.

Current Halogen / HID fixtures are injection molded for a coupla buck in Mexico or Asia
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The very simplest, most basic headlamps, yes, but in general, no; surely this isn't your actual impression of the costs and techniques involved in the design, tooling, and production of an OE current-model halogen or HID headlamp…? If it is, you are far off base.

the optical designs for these current lamps are primitive and based on flashlight params.
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That is flatly not correct. Not in any kind of a general way. It doesn't apply to any of the OE LED headlamps presently on the market, though it could legitimately be applied to the Truck-Lite 7" round unit. It appears to me that you don't have very close familiarity with the optics of the OE LED headlamps presently on the market and forthcoming in development. That would explain some of your other statements, which appear to be based more on guesses and assumptions than actual knowledge.

biking enthusiasts are building more efficient and likely better color rendering LED lights for off road use. Some are likely brighter than your stock European halogen.
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Perhaps, but perhaps not. How about some support for the assertion, in the form of beam isoplots, colorimetry test results, and other hard data? Also, you mean "brighter" in what sense? Total flux in beam? Peak beam intensity or illuminance? The term "brighter" is not formally used by those actually involved in engineering, making, testing, or studying the performance of headlamps, because it is a subjective term (like a louder sound or a stronger smell or taste) with no quantifiable meaning.
 
scheinwerfermann will immediately reply that the differences would be obvious in an isoplot (did I just make that word up?), but some anecdotal "evidence" attesting to the complexity of modern headlamp optics is the FX35 headlamps some years back. I had just gotten into the retrofit crowd, and this was right when Infiniti recalled the FX35 headlamps. Well, the recalled ones were being pawned off at crazy cheap prices on the forums by assumed nissan employees. "tests" were done by fairly reputable members, and I myself even got a pre and post recall projector and visually couldn't tell the difference in output. Apparently, the redesign was so small as to not be immediately noticeable by the human eye, which is what the headlamp was meant to aid to begin with. Yet the difference was so big that infiniti was forced to recall all these headlamps.

So, any bets on what emitter was used?
 
bshanahan14rulz said:
scheinwerfermann will immediately reply that the differences would be obvious in an isoplot (did I just make that word up?), but some anecdotal "evidence" attesting to the complexity of modern headlamp optics is the FX35 headlamps some years back.
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Isoplot is a real word that actually means something.
"Anecdotal evidence" is on much shakier ground, keeping company with "red-hot ice cube" and "full-race street motor" and "dry rain"
duh2.gif


Apparently, the redesign was so small as to not be immediately noticeable by the human eye, which is what the headlamp was meant to aid to begin with. Yet the difference was so big that infiniti was forced to recall all these headlamps.
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Yep, I remember that recall. The headlamps did not meet the photometric requirements, and so were recalled and replaced with units that did. I don't recollect the exact nature of the noncompliance, but I'm pretty sure it was insufficient uplight at the overhead-sign test points (2° and 4° above horizontal, 8° left and right of center) and/or excessive foreground light (4° below horizontal at various lateral angles). Not much light is required for overhead sign light, but some projectors don't produce even the small amounts needed. "Not immediately noticeable by the human eye" is probably true; it is an example of why subjective impressions of light aren't reliable.

any bets on what emitter was used?
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I'm working on finding out. No luck yet, but I'm not out of phone numbers and e-mail addresses to hit yet, either!
 
You didn't mention the elves at all.

Do you think Hella wants to give me a set of lights to test against the Truck-Lites?
The 7" spots put out stinkloads of raw splooge-light. It's mostly straight-line but it goes all over the place. It's wonderful offroad but gets too messy for faster speed.
The floods are wonderful offroad and completely worthless on the road. Nothing unexpected there.
 
I am not quite sure what prompted all that, but I'll comment on the more amusing portions.

blasterman said:
In Cree lumens I've calulated the surface area for simple wrap around headlamps could produce lumen values over 1,500 at 115F ambient, which is well beyond what the best halogens can achieve, especially photopic. This is entirely passive and doesn't assume anything internal aiding thermal transfer.
Click to expand...

What exactly are Cree lumens? Which LED are you referring to? You are talking about ambient temperature, but what about junction temperature? That has a great affect on luminous flux and especially longevity. In Arizona, where a large number of car manufacturers have their testing grounds, 110F is common and that typically translates into much higher temperatures inside the car and anything in it. 150-160F ambient inside the car is common, surfaces get even hotter. That's all even before the engine is turned on. Further more, when you say "passive", what does that mean? LED unattached to anything? Attached to a penny? A half-pound copper heatsink?


blasterman said:
Like anything else in the automotive industry LED add-ons are going to be treated as any boutique item that dealers can make a quick buck off of. Current Halogen / HID fixtures are injection molded for a coupla buck in Mexico or Asia, and you can't make LED's head lamp fixtures this cheap, so we have the high price tags.
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How about the cost of electronics required to power LED properly? Automotive power is not suitable for LEDs and designing power regulation systems is complex and expensive.
 
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