Help needed with 50W HID - fails to strike

[KevinL]

Well I guess I lost big time (and they still call me lucky - I doubt it)

Picked up one of those 50W/38W HIDs and it was brilliantly beautiful bright for the first couple of minutes I ran it. Next time I lit it up, one brief flash and the light fails to light up. Try re-igniting it a few times, charging the pack (12+ volts at the terminals which is already over 4V for 3S3P li-ion), same effect. Brief flash and no arc is struck.

Any suggestions on what I might be able to try before I send it back and lose money in shipping? (and before the "buy from a US dealer" comments start, I would lose even MORE money if I bought from the US - it's more expensive to get this to the US than back to HK because of where I live.).


I'm kinda frustrated.. I think this may be the last HID on my watch since I can't afford the asking price for a 'real' HID.

I might have to turn to LEDs to get to the 3-4K lumen class where I was hoping to get to with this 50W. I came up with a dumb as a brick direct drive/resistored drive design, safe chemistry A123 (LiFE) cells powering nine XP-Gs 3S3P, and I know it'll work when I need a floodlight in an emergency. Mac's already shown me the front end and how it could be.. I just need to buy the stuff.

 

[dudemar]

Re: 50W HID issues - fails to strike

Sorry to hear about your light going out.

Unfortunately not a whole lot can be done at this point. To power up the ballast you need the batteries, and to test the bulb you need the ballast. Your best option is to return the light and hopefully get an exchange/refund. The "buy from a US dealer" is only for those who are in the US, just an afterthought for a good chunk of the US based CPFers.:tinfoil: IIRC you're in Oz so whatever works best for you is all the better.

Again that just sucks. It's a definite heart breaker when you have a massively bright light and it goes . :mecry:

.

 

[KevinL]

Re: 50W HID issues - fails to strike

Sorry to hear about your light going out.

Unfortunately not a whole lot can be done at this point. To power up the ballast you need the batteries, and to test the bulb you need the ballast. Your best option is to return the light and hopefully get an exchange/refund. The "buy from a US dealer" is only for those who are in the US, just an afterthought for a good chunk of the US based CPFers.:tinfoil: IIRC you're in Oz so whatever works best for you is all the better.

Again that just sucks. It's a definite heart breaker when you have a massively bright light and it goes . :mecry:

.

Oh, I was only in AU for a year, moved home a few years ago. Still in the far east though.

The quality really sucks on these. The beam, while I kept it lit for a minute, is ringy, blotchy and uneven. Doesn't even appear to have a regular hotspot, it's rough and uneven. Quantity of light seems fine, lights up a whole indoor room brighter than daylight so we at least have that down if nothing else.

They didn't even bother to clean off the oil on the surfaces of the light, it feels sticky to the touch.

I bought on a CPF recommendation.. if I had known quality was such a crap shoot, I would have thrown all the funds into my super-Mag project.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=288560

The front end is going to be almost the same.. it's just that I'm using a different design for the powertrain.

Sure I bought cheap, but how can one justify $2K for top-of-the-line?

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Re: 50W HID issues - fails to strike

Sure I bought cheap, but how can one justify $2K for top-of-the-line?

Good luck on the refund. You've seen the value for money when it doesn't work - as low as nothing, minus whatever it costs to think you had a working light. When it Has To Work, you pay a premium for that assurance. with your diy design, the batteries are about all that could go wrong. Maintain them and keep the voltage right for your Vf and you're set.

 

[ma_sha1]

You could look at it as an opportunity to go for a 75W mod ? :devil:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=296410

It's a legit excuses to get "replacement" ballast, wife would understand how upsetting it is & ballast must be "replaced" .

On ebay the 75W kits are about $130 a pair.

 

[KevinL]

Good luck on the refund. You've seen the value for money when it doesn't work - as low as nothing, minus whatever it costs to think you had a working light. When it Has To Work, you pay a premium for that assurance. with your diy design, the batteries are about all that could go wrong. Maintain them and keep the voltage right for your Vf and you're set.

Yeah.....maybe I should have more faith in my own engineering skills than those of the cut-rate race-to-the-bottom factories. These guys will tell you I'm no stranger to magmods, been chopping 'em up and sucking down solder fumes since '04. My "Triple TWAK" (Lux3s with that particular bin code) performed superbly for five years till it was put out of business by more efficient LEDs. It was reborn as the Quad Cree. Both are 100% DD designs, no resistor.

I was thinking of the 50W as the last hurray for HID before I migrated to LED, but it looks like that migration will come along much sooner.

You could look at it as an opportunity to go for a 75W mod ? :devil:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=296410

It's a legit excuses to get "replacement" ballast, wife would understand how upsetting it is & ballast must be "replaced" .

On ebay the 75W kits are about $130 a pair.

The Flamethrower Nine (XP-G) will come first for that price (it will cost me about that much)

I have a nice Vector 35W HID in a similar style, but sadly it is not waterproof and thus only good for a show light - and only when the weather is good.

The light that failed is one of those tube torch style HIDs. Doubt the aftermarket ballasts (which are square) will fit. They use custom bulbs too rather than the standard D2S burners.

No wife to take it out on me, just me hating myself for thinking I could get lucky

 

[KevinL]

They're offering me a replacement bulb.... I'm wondering if I should take it.

If I do a refund I might be out shipping both ways (ship to me and ship back to them).

I can't quite seem to figure out how to get the head open though. It should be the same design as the Oracle HID and Tactical HID, anybody have experience with those?

 

[richardcpf]

I work a lot with cheap and high quality hid kits for cars and this is one of the most common reason in HID failure.

When it only emits a short flash everytime you turn it on, it is because the ballast fails to supply a constant voltage of around 25kv to the bulb, it only flash because the initial current draw is very high. When the bulb fails they are either burnt (the bulb would look black) or defective. If the bulb was defective, it would not even flash, but you can hear the ballast emit a buzz or similar noise.

You should probably work out with the seller to get a new ballast. If you decide to get the bulb make sure he sends it for free, since they are are $20 a pair shipped. Yours uses a D4S type bulb if I'm correct.

 

[KevinL]

I work a lot with cheap and high quality hid kits for cars and this is one of the most common reason in HID failure.

When it only emits a short flash everytime you turn it on, it is because the ballast fails to supply a constant voltage of around 25kv to the bulb, it only flash because the initial current draw is very high. When the bulb fails they are either burnt (the bulb would look black) or defective. If the bulb was defective, it would not even flash, but you can hear the ballast emit a buzz or similar noise.

You should probably work out with the seller to get a new ballast. If you decide to get the bulb make sure he sends it for free, since they are are $20 a pair shipped. Yours uses a D4S type bulb if I'm correct.

Thank you for your insights! This is the kind of technical expertise I was counting on CPF for much appreciated.. knowing how the beast fails is sometimes as important as knowing how it works, so you can make an accurate diagnosis when SHTF.

I am sending out the ballast and bulb assembly today, I made it clear to the seller that it was glued together so I could only send both. I'll also be expecting back a new ballast and bulb

At least it gives me hope that this is fixable with the right parts.

The photos of the carnage are here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=296460

 

[KevinL]

Weeks drag on and still no resolution. I'm really REALLY mad and upset that I've spent so much on so little. Seriously, I'm from the far east and all, but I'm starting to think that the "made in china" stuff I hear on CPF.. there is actually a point being made. It certainly is bearing out to be true in this situation.

The seller claims they never received the ballast after I sent it back. Unfortunately, I sent it regular airmail without tracking. This light has just been one long series of bad decisions.. almost like a curse.

Should I just buy a new ballast, write off the light, lodge an ebay/Paypal dispute? I am aware Paypal was of no help at all the last time someone took the money and ran out on me.

 

[ma_sha1]

Sorry to hear that, you'll never know what really happened.

I'm starting to think that the "made in china" stuff I hear on CPF.. there is actually a point being made. It certainly is bearing out to be true in this situation.

>90% of all flashlights & spot light are made in China, some are bad & some are of great quality, can't assume generally "made in china" = bad just because a bad experience with a specific model.

Unfortunately, I sent it regular airmail without tracking.

Should never have done that

Should I just buy a new ballast, write off the light, lodge an ebay/Paypal dispute? I am aware Paypal was of no help at all the last time someone took the money and ran out on me.

There's not a place to buy round ballasts, especially dual out put.
Maybe alibaba express, again, they'll be made in china & usually don't sell one at a time.

Your best way out is to file a PP claim & then follow instructions to send it back with tracking#. You have 45 days from the date of PP payment date, after that you'll be out of luck.

 

[PowerLabs]

I work a lot with cheap and high quality hid kits for cars and this is one of the most common reason in HID failure.

When it only emits a short flash everytime you turn it on, it is because the ballast fails to supply a constant voltage of around 25kv to the bulb, it only flash because the initial current draw is very high. When the bulb fails they are either burnt (the bulb would look black) or defective. If the bulb was defective, it would not even flash, but you can hear the ballast emit a buzz or similar noise.

You should probably work out with the seller to get a new ballast. If you decide to get the bulb make sure he sends it for free, since they are are $20 a pair shipped. Yours uses a D4S type bulb if I'm correct.

You are right; it IS the ballast. But your description of how it works is not correct.
The way the HID bulb/ballast works is pretty simple. The arc is struck with a high voltage pulse, but that pulse only lasts a few mS: After the arc has been struck and an ion channel is in place the resistance of the bulb drops several orders of magnitude and the ballast supplies a few hundred volts to keep the arc going and the bulb lit. No HID ballast is capable of supplying 25kV continuously; not even close. That strike voltage is produced by discharging a small capacitor into something that looks like a miniature car ignition coil and it only lasts for the few thousandths of a second it takes for the capacitor to discharge.
Incidentally it also doesn't take anywhere near 25kV to strike a flashlight bulb.
What the OP is observing when he turns his light on and sees a brief flash is the low current/high voltage strike arc. The ballast is not providing the bulb with the low voltage/high current current the arc needs to stay alive. The striker is working, the rest of the ballast is not.

 

[BVH]

Don't take this is a rebuttal to the low Voltage reference in the above post. For the enthusiasts among us, I'm just posting what my ballast measurements have been over the years. I have a range of ballasts from about 24 Watts to 300 Watts to the bulb. With the exception of the 300 Watt ORC Locator military spotlight, most of the other "automotive" and a few round style ballast Voltages once the starting cycle have completed (typically about 15 to 30 seconds) , range from about the 75 Volts to just a little over 100 steady Volts - usually AC Voltage. The starting cycle Voltages (not to be confused with the millesecond ignition Voltage in the 23KV area) occur immediately after ignition and are about 10 to 15 Volts higher than the final steady Voltage and are reduced over the 15 to 30 seconds.

I see the higher steady Voltages on ballasts that output between 80 and 110 Watts to the bulb.

The Locator is a 28 Volt military light and outputs only 38 Volts DC to the bulb. Lots of Amps though - between 8 & 9. The bulb is good for a whopping 25 hours.

Sorry about being a little off-topic.