HID Flashlights - competition from LEDs?
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StarHalo
Flashaholic
Re: HID Flashlights...
Comsumer LEDs are quickly catching up to HIDs when it comes to lumens/watt (I think the SSC P7 already exceeds it). Odds are that the simplicity and durability of the LED will eventually eclipse HIDs, and you'll see fewer HID lights over time. Though not all HIDs are prohibitively expensive, $140 for 3200 lumens is still a killer deal: http://www.batteryjunction.com/n30-3161.html
Comsumer LEDs are quickly catching up to HIDs when it comes to lumens/watt (I think the SSC P7 already exceeds it). Odds are that the simplicity and durability of the LED will eventually eclipse HIDs, and you'll see fewer HID lights over time. Though not all HIDs are prohibitively expensive, $140 for 3200 lumens is still a killer deal: http://www.batteryjunction.com/n30-3161.html
Re: HID Flashlights...
Who cares about lumens per watt when you're talking about a 3200 lumen flashlight vs. a 200 lumen one with poor color rendition and less throw? :huh:
If you look into the P7 you'll find it's actually less efficient than the latest Cree bins. It's basically a bunch of Seoul SSC's wired together. Which is all fine and dandy, but it's funny when people claim they are a new uber efficient emitter when in fact this is not true.
When you're talking about ten times the light or more, efficiency ratiings becomes a pretty humorous argument.
Now does this mean LED's won't be putting out 3200 lumens in the future? Of course not. But the electrical arc is where it's at for the time being. LED's may become obsolete twenty years down the road as well. Who knows?
Maybe battery technology will progress to the point that we will not care that much about efficiency in ten or twenty years time?
Who cares about lumens per watt when you're talking about a 3200 lumen flashlight vs. a 200 lumen one with poor color rendition and less throw? :huh:
If you look into the P7 you'll find it's actually less efficient than the latest Cree bins. It's basically a bunch of Seoul SSC's wired together. Which is all fine and dandy, but it's funny when people claim they are a new uber efficient emitter when in fact this is not true.
When you're talking about ten times the light or more, efficiency ratiings becomes a pretty humorous argument.
Now does this mean LED's won't be putting out 3200 lumens in the future? Of course not. But the electrical arc is where it's at for the time being. LED's may become obsolete twenty years down the road as well. Who knows?
Maybe battery technology will progress to the point that we will not care that much about efficiency in ten or twenty years time?
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DM51
Flashaholic
At first glance, this thread would appear to belong in the HID section; however it is possible that it could develop into a worthwhile discussion of when (or whether) LEDs will provide serious competition for HIDs.
In the hope of such a discussion, I have edited the thread title, and the thread can stay here in the General section for the time being; however it may need to be moved at a later stage.
In the hope of such a discussion, I have edited the thread title, and the thread can stay here in the General section for the time being; however it may need to be moved at a later stage.
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Even if LED's catch up in lumens/watts, we still have to consider what kind of throw they can produce from a given diameter housing. HID's have an advantage here, since the light they produce originates from a very small point, vs. the large emission area of high power LED's. This translates to a tighter beam from a given diameter reflector.
I think LED's could displace HID in short-range/flood applications pretty quickly. That's all about efficiency. On the other hand I'm not aware of many such HID applications - automobile low beams, maybe? :thinking:
Long throw applications, on the other hand, will require advances in both efficiency AND in optics design. My guess is that we'll see HID around in the long-throw niche for several more years.
Regards,
Bob
I think LED's could displace HID in short-range/flood applications pretty quickly. That's all about efficiency. On the other hand I'm not aware of many such HID applications - automobile low beams, maybe? :thinking:
Long throw applications, on the other hand, will require advances in both efficiency AND in optics design. My guess is that we'll see HID around in the long-throw niche for several more years.
Regards,
Bob
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Ecko
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
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- 121
Re: HID Flashlights...
Yeah but, that light is not suitable for carry. The price for a HID that would either fit in your pocket or a belt holster is over $300.
Yeah but, that light is not suitable for carry. The price for a HID that would either fit in your pocket or a belt holster is over $300.
Fallingwater
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: HID Flashlights...
Current SSCP7s can't touch HIDs yet for amount of light, so if you want an aircraft-sighting light you have to put up with inefficiency.
But if in the future we get single LEDs or P7-like arrays that can produce the same light of a hid while consuming less energy... well, that's always good.
I disagree. More efficiency is always good.
Current SSCP7s can't touch HIDs yet for amount of light, so if you want an aircraft-sighting light you have to put up with inefficiency.
But if in the future we get single LEDs or P7-like arrays that can produce the same light of a hid while consuming less energy... well, that's always good.
PhantomPhoton
Flashlight Enthusiast
For big power and throw HIDs are still king of the hill. But in the smaller hand held... say m@g size area they are gaining rapidly.
The Welch Allyn Solarc 10W HID is definitely surpassed in lumens output and efficiency by new multi emitter or multi die lights. But it is still better for throw.
IMHO it is a toss up currently. Smaller 20-30 watt ballasts are coming around that will keep HIDs in the race for awhile.
The Welch Allyn Solarc 10W HID is definitely surpassed in lumens output and efficiency by new multi emitter or multi die lights. But it is still better for throw.
IMHO it is a toss up currently. Smaller 20-30 watt ballasts are coming around that will keep HIDs in the race for awhile.
Stereodude
Flashlight Enthusiast
jerry i h
Enlightened
I have EL's Wall-of-Fire. It is advertised as 3600 lumens, but this is theoretical max. More realistically:
700 lumens (C bin min) x 4 p7's x 66% M*g efficiency = 1900 lumens, but this is out the front end, not just bulb lumens.
Plus, I can use alkys (at a reduced output) or rechargeables, and the cost was 3 bills.
Certainly this is in HID territory? Granted, there maybe more cost efficient torches, but the LED's also have a longer lifespan than HID bulbs?
700 lumens (C bin min) x 4 p7's x 66% M*g efficiency = 1900 lumens, but this is out the front end, not just bulb lumens.
Plus, I can use alkys (at a reduced output) or rechargeables, and the cost was 3 bills.
Certainly this is in HID territory? Granted, there maybe more cost efficient torches, but the LED's also have a longer lifespan than HID bulbs?
Yoda4561
Flashlight Enthusiast
For flood lighting sure, for throw I doubt it. With some theoretical limit that apparently exists at around 300 lumens per watt with decent color rendition and dies that are around the same size as the ones we have now it's gonna be really tough to do it. I was doing some pondering earlier on when I could expect a 1000 lumen surefire 2 cell type flashlight with decent runtime.
My very hopeful prediction is we might get 250 lumens/watt real world leds in the next 5 years, driven at 5 watts for a realistic runtime figure, and taking off for emitter efficiency loss at high wattage + an 80-90% efficient reflector/optic and we're looking at an optimistic 900-1000 lumens.
With a multi-die emitter perhaps 3000+ is possible, but you'll never get the throw of an HID unless they invent something with a tiny point source of light. Hard to do with solid state devices because unless they're 100 % efficient they're going to have to dissipate alot of heat in a very small area.
I'm actually curious as to what an SSC P7 could do with a properly designed optic. I'm sure there's a reason it won't work well but a 700 lumen pocketlight in something like a malkoff drop-in would be so cool
My very hopeful prediction is we might get 250 lumens/watt real world leds in the next 5 years, driven at 5 watts for a realistic runtime figure, and taking off for emitter efficiency loss at high wattage + an 80-90% efficient reflector/optic and we're looking at an optimistic 900-1000 lumens.
With a multi-die emitter perhaps 3000+ is possible, but you'll never get the throw of an HID unless they invent something with a tiny point source of light. Hard to do with solid state devices because unless they're 100 % efficient they're going to have to dissipate alot of heat in a very small area.
I'm actually curious as to what an SSC P7 could do with a properly designed optic. I'm sure there's a reason it won't work well but a 700 lumen pocketlight in something like a malkoff drop-in would be so cool
Ecko
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Re: HID Flashlights...
A few of the close to pocketable or holster carry lights...
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/productList.aspx?uid=1-17-74
http://www.phoebus.com/terminator.html
A few of the close to pocketable or holster carry lights...
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/productList.aspx?uid=1-17-74
http://www.phoebus.com/terminator.html
Stereodude
Flashlight Enthusiast
jerry i h
Enlightened
...With a multi-die emitter perhaps 3000+ is possible, but you'll never get the throw of an HID unless they invent something with a tiny point source of light...I'm actually curious as to what an SSC P7 could do with a properly designed optic. I'm sure there's a reason it won't work well but a 700 lumen pocketlight in something like a malkoff drop-in would be so cool
Would it change your mind if someone where to come up with an optic for the P7? My 4xK2 Quadlight is a great flood, but also fabulous thrower if you add the small, plastic, conical bits. A similar, small, plastic, reflector thing for the P7 could not be far off.
IMHO, a proper optic for the P7 has been designed by EL (sorry to sound like a broken record): he is making his LT in a P7. Granted, it is a M*g sized thing, and not a mini-M*g thing, due to heat problems.
Yoda4561
Flashlight Enthusiast
You bet! I'd love a surefire C2/M2 sized light with an optic for decent throw. Heat is of course an issue but this would be the sort of light that gets used for max 5 minutes while in hand, so I think it should be okay. Think 20-30 minutes of runtime is possible on a pair of cr123a primaries? Used like a P61 lamp with a bit of throw. Perhaps the limiting factor is a driver board that will run it in regulation small enough to fit into a custom head. I'd prefer a drop-in type upgrade but I don't think a P60 would dissipate the heat safely for more than a minute or two. I doubt there's enough intrest in such a thing for someone to offer a mass production module, probably be a custom job if it ever happens.
Edit: I'll probably be picking up elektrolumens P7 Mag later on to see if it's really the kind of light that I want or if less would be better Actually the surefire UB 2 is looking better and better as time goes on, if only the bezel weren't so wide, or if it were bezel up at least.
Edit: I'll probably be picking up elektrolumens P7 Mag later on to see if it's really the kind of light that I want or if less would be better
Actually the surefire UB 2 is looking better and better as time goes on, if only the bezel weren't so wide, or if it were bezel up at least.
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Gunner12
Flashaholic
I think HID and LEDs are currently pretty similar efficiency wise. But HID has the advantage of a higher output and higher surface brightness(more throw for the same size reflector).
Multi LEDs can match HIDs in output, but it won't match it in throw unless the light is very big and has the right reflectors.
Multi LEDs can match HIDs in output, but it won't match it in throw unless the light is very big and has the right reflectors.
