How much do you know about RCR's batteries?

[SemperFi]

Hi,

I may have but was also sure in thinking I knew about the increase of mAh sustaining and prolonging power supply however, and this is where I am unsure of.... when I received the PM from another member here who is trying to assist but I want a third opinion if not, more & qualified advises/opinions if you will, to give me a clear understanding on where I am heading next before stocking up much more with the right choice of rechargeable batteries and that includes the regular CR123s too.

Here's the situation for my part:-

The flashlights that can accept CR123s are also able to operate with RCR123s but according to the company we both place our purchases from at Hands & Tools, it is ill-advised to attempt using RCRs123s with 3.7v.

I can certainly abide that caution and therefore decided to have only the charger suited for accepting one and only 3.0v.

Having realized that, I do still need to know, whether there are RCR123s with higher voltage say like 1200mAh or even 1800 mAh perhaps and of course, equipped with 3.0v, will these when 'doubled' into one flashlight, are not regarded as "excessive" for the circuitry in the T1?

Where is the line and safety for good continuous and unhindered lighting performance be guaranteed or there isn't any with such an output?

I am not at this point knowledgeable about flashlights and/or Cree's or batteries to tell which is the better that those now sprouting up from all about esp. from Chinese makes which I am not doubting either as making better headway with demands to meet the growing needs in rechargeables.

Mine began with Duracell CR123s and on it showed no voltage mAh capacity so basically, I havn't a clue what is it or how strong is the mAh like as opposed to the CRCR123s (from HQ brand see pictures & probably of Chinese origin too) I have now that is only 600mAh.

I wondered, can I safely insert RCR123s on 3.0v with 1200 0r even at 1800 mAh to safely power a Fenix T1 that accepts two batteries at a time? this again, if there is such RCR123s with that high a capacity?

I was informed to steer clear from any rechargeable 123s that runs on 3.7v, so, what is good caution to heed and abide?

I hope some seriously knowledgeable experts among you can help answer my learning interests on this area, thanks.

Here are pics of my new charger and RCR123s... click the following>> Unnamed Charger on 3.0v ~ Blue RCR123 with 600mAh.

Cheers & my thanks in advance on any helpful answers, - SF.

What brand of RCR123 did you buy? A lot of people recommend only using Li-Ion batteries that are protected. That means that there is a small IC circuit that protects the battery from being over-charged or over-dissapated. AW on this forum sells these batteries and it is very popular.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=173892

You can read more about batteries here. There's a lot of good info:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161536

Also, I think you misunderstand that mAH rating. This Amp-Hours is basically a measurement of how long you will have power for. Kinda of like a gas tank for a car. So a 1200 mah battery will power a flashlight twice as long as 600 mah.

BUT, its the voltage that can make a flashlight brighter. CR123 lithium batteries are 3.0 volts, but the rechargeable RCR123 lithium-ion batteries are usually 3.6 volts. So the extra voltage will give you extra brightness. But be very careful to make sure that the bulb can handle the extra voltage. For example if you use 3.6 volts in a incandescent (xenon) bulb that can only take 3.0 volts, it will break/burn the bulb.

Hope that helps.

I'd like another opinion as advise if you can, on the following.

I have a T1 and it uses 2x cR123s.

I bought a set of RCR 123s with 600 mAh.

Is there a higher mAh that could power safely and are there any consequence in whatever probability like burning out or whatever if I go beyond a 600 mAh capacity?

If you can also, where and how good a bargain can I source the higher mAh firmly maintaining 3.0 volt RCR 123s?

Thanks for yr help on these minor points, I'm new on this as of only three weeks since.

Cheers.:thumbsup:

 

[SilverFox]

Hello SemperFi,

A battery has 3 basic components,

Size,
Voltage, and
Capacity.

Obviously, you can't stuff a D sized cell into an AAA sized battery tube. So you have to pay attention to size.

Voltage is determined by chemistry and sometimes circuits that are added to the battery. The R-CR123 cell is available as 3.7 nominal volts, and two version of 3.0 nominal volts.

The 3.7 nominal volt cells operate in the 4.2 - 3.0 volt range. Fully charged they are at 4.2 volts. When they reach 3.0 volts under load, they are fully discharged, yet some discharge to a little lower voltage.

When you stack two of the 3.7 volt cells that are fully charged to 4.2 volts, you are providing your light with 8.4 volts. Some lights have a circuit that is capable of handling this increased voltage, and in others the higher voltage will burn up the circuit board and your light will stop working.

There are 2 versions of the 3.0 nominal volt cell. One version takes a 3.7 volt cell and adds a voltage drop down circuit to it. This cell requires a special charger because it needs to be charged to a higher voltage. Off the charger it has a voltage of around 3.8 volts, so when you stack two of them together you end up starting with around 7.6 volts. Once again, if your circuit board in your light can handle this voltage, fine, if not it burns up.

The other 3.0 nominal volt cell is actually a different chemistry, and it requires a different charger. It is a Lithium Iron chemistry and is sometimes listed as LiFe. It comes off the charger at 3.6 volts and settles down to around 3.3 - 3.4 volts. This is very similar to primary CR123 cells in voltage, so you don't have to worry about blowing your light up.

Now let's look at capacity.

Capacity is given in milli Amphours, with these cells. The primary (non rechargeable) cells have a capacity of around 1300 - 1500 mAh. The R-CR123 Li-Ion 3.7 nominal volt cells, regardless of what their label suggests, come in at around 600 mAh. The R-CR123 Li-Ion 3.0 nominal volt cells come in a little under 600 mAh. The R-CR123 LiFe 3.0 nominal volt cells come in at around 325 mAh.

This capacity difference means that if your light runs for 60 minutes on primary CR123 cells with a capacity of 1400 mAh, it will only run for around 25 minutes on R-CR123 3.7 volt cells, if it can handle the higher voltage, around 21 minutes on the R-CR123 3.0 volt Li-Ion cells, and around 14 minutes on the R-CR123 3.0 volt LiFe cells.

Unfortunately, you can't get higher capacity in the CR123 size of the rechargeable cells.

Since this is mostly a battery question, I will move this over to the batteries section of the form.

Tom

 

[z96Cobra]

As far as I know there are no rechargeable CR123 (aka RCR123) 3.0V with a 1200mAh or higher capacity. When I bought mine a couple of years ago, all you could find was 750-1000mAh and they were overrated according to some tests done by members here. As for the RCR123 3.7V batteries, you don't need to stay away from them if you have a light that can handle them. Some lights that take CR123 3.0V batteries can handle higher voltages, but you need to check the specs from the light's manufacturer. There are lots of guys running 2xRCR123 3.7V batts in their lights. IIRC the Fenix T1 can handle 'em just fine. You may also want to do a search on batteries in the 18650 and 17670 sizes.

Roger

 

[Gunner12]

I'm no expert but:

mAh is a measurement of capacity, like volume, and v is the measurement of voltage, like pressure.

Rechargeable batteries naturally have lower energy then primaries, because of the extra chemicals needed to make the battery easily rechargeable (primaries can also be recharged, but it is a very long and tedious process).

For most lights, what you have to worry about is voltage of the batteries (example 12v) and not the capacity (2000 mAh). The T1 can handle 12 (tested, it might be able to handle higher voltages) so technically, you should be able to connect it to a 12v car battery and the light should run just fine. So using 2 3.7v batteries should be fine.

The highest capacity I've seen on a RCR123 is 800 mAh.

From my knowledge, some 3.0v Li-ion batteries use a resistor/circuit to lower the voltage. So some are a 3.7v battery with the extra 0.7v removed via resistor/circuit. Others have a different chemistry for the lower voltage

A good CR123 battery should have 1300 mAh and start around 3.3v.

What voltage an LED light can accept has more to do with the driver then the LED itself.

Some products will fry with a 3.7v battery and even with a 3.0v battery(3.6v fully charged). The T1 runs fine with battery input between 6v and 12v.

As for the batteries and charger,

The charger I'm not sure about but I'd advise to be careful with the batteries. The don't seem to be protected against overcharge and overdischarge. Either one increases the potential of the battery violently venting.

If you'll only use the batteries in the T1 and other 3.7v battery accepting lights, I'd recommend AW's batteries and a fitting charger.

 

[UnknownVT]

The question really comes down to whether the Fenix T1 can be run on 2x rechargeable li-Ion RCR123 batteries.

Many people have run the Fenix P3D series on 2x 3.7V rechargeable Li-Ion RCR123.

I tried this in a Fenix P3Drb100 - please see posts #7 & #8 in Fenix P3D-RB100 Rebel Comparison Review ...

and before you think I've gone off at a tangent -

because of that, I figured the Fenix TK10 and T1 probably could handle 2x 3.7V rechargeable Li-Ion RCR123 -
so I did this in the Fenix TK10 (which I suspect has the same electronics as the T1)

Please see posts #16 & #18 in Fenix TK10 Comparison Review

I have also tried 2x 3.7V RCR123 in the Fenix T1.

Disclaimer: I have not read Fenix recommending the use of rechargeable Li-Ion RCR123 - but neither have I read them NOT recommending their usage.
So it's entirely at your own risk.

 

[TheGreyEminence]

I´m running ALL my Fenix and the Microfire T503 with rechargeables at no problems.
The only difference is the shorter runtime...
Just think of how much money you can save on primaries if you use them frequently!
Regards...:wave:

 

[SemperFi]

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[SemperFi]

to all for the time you took in putting across your understanding and perception on the different voltage in particular plus the functionalities involving on the way sensitive circuitry recognizes & works. [FONT=&quot]My

and appreciation to all and for Tom's decision in relocating this thread to the batteries section. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I can then add about my vendor, "knives & tools" in Holland, were most helpful but when I have q'ns, it usually surface after office hours and or the weekend so that's a bad start... however, from earlier telcons exchanged that led me into ordering on-line and with the subsequent follow-up orders on the R-CR123As, I was cautioned NOT to insert or charge any 3.7v R-CR123s into this charger they sent to me and only to use this same brand and voltage on it.

It was then when I saw the 600 mAh on the rechargeable that I began to wonder more on the possibility of a higher capacity and after reading some of yours, I guess, I will stick to the 600mAh supply instead as I plan to buy more as a frequent back up power from regular use and save the spare Duracell CR123s for the very last option left when all power are used up on every available RCR123s on my reserve holsters.... that's how I have come to understand how my situation will be like after I get another similar flasher that utilizes 3.0v RCR 123s with 600mAh so I only need to tag along one and only charger suitable for all the batteries.

Thanks guys, your response were adequate to follow where I need to understand and from here became a little wiser on the workings of my newly acquired torchlight....!

Cheers to all you beacons out there and I'll soon put it to the test on the greens when darkness creeps in if I don't make it back from the 18th hole in good time when I go back to our golf course again in May.

[/FONT]

 

[glenda17]

You should reconsider using 3.7V RCR123's. You will need a charger, and there isn't a safe charger on the market.

The UF-139 can be used if you take the batteries off when the light turns green, leave them on too long and they can catch fire.

Don't use the popular Pila, it sends too many mA (600) which is higher than the recommended 1C and can catch fire.

Basically the only safe chargers are ones people rig up from $125 model airplane chargers and there are no instructions anywhere on how to convert them to RCR123 use. No one wants to share the technique because if you rig it wrong, it could catch fire.

Reputable companies like Surefire, Sanyo, or Panasonic don't make a RCR123 charger because if they miss a component in assembly -it could catch fire.

Basically the whole 3.7V RCR123 charger product is a hot potatoe that no one wants to touch. Investing in 3,7V LiIon equipment at this point is futile because it will soon be obsoleted.

Look for 3.2V LiFePO4 rechargeables and chargers, they are safe. If you're hard headed like me use AW RCR123's w/ a UF139 in a metal ammo can outside on your concrete patio.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Glenda,

I guess I don't agree with you...

I think the Pila IBC charger does a very good job of charging R-CR123 Li-Ion cells.

I do agree that the hobby chargers give you more options and are probably better for these cells, but as you have pointed out, they do cost a little more.

Tom

 

[Mr Happy]

mAh is a measurement of capacity, like volume, and v is the measurement of voltage, like speed of flow.

Just thought I'd respond to this since it's not quite right. mAh is indeed a measurement of capacity, like volume, but V (voltage) is a measurement of pressure, not flow. The measure of electrical flow is amps (A).

If anyone has a garden irrigation system, you may know that if you set the water pressure too high it will blow the top off the sprinkler heads. It is the same with voltage: if you set the voltage too high it will damage the equipment being supplied, sometimes spectacularly.

 

[Gunner12]

Just thought I'd respond to this since it's not quite right. mAh is indeed a measurement of capacity, like volume, but V (voltage) is a measurement of pressure, not flow. The measure of electrical flow is amps (A).

If anyone has a garden irrigation system, you may know that if you set the water pressure too high it will blow the top off the sprinkler heads. It is the same with voltage: if you set the voltage too high it will damage the equipment being supplied, sometimes spectacularly.

That makes more sense. Post fixed, Thanks!

 

[Centropolis]

I´m running ALL my Fenix and the Microfire T503 with rechargeables at no problems.
The only difference is the shorter runtime...
Just think of how much money you can save on primaries if you use them frequently!
Regards...:wave:

With your P1D with RCRs.....do you lose the low and med modes?

 

[glenda17]

Hello Glenda,

I guess I don't agree with you...

I think the Pila IBC charger does a very good job of charging R-CR123 Li-Ion cells.

I do agree that the hobby chargers give you more options and are probably better for these cells, but as you have pointed out, they do cost a little more.

Tom

It charges at more than 1C, even Pilla doesn't recommend it. You are playing russian roulette. The UF is much safer if you pull the battery after it turns green.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Glenda,

Let's look at the math on this...

I have some AW R-CR123 cells. They are rated at 750 mAh. If I am charging at 600 mAh, I am below 1.0C.

After some use, the cells capacity will drop. When it drops to 600 mAh, it is at 80% of its initial rated capacity, and if it drops below that it should be recycled. At 600 mAh, I am still charging at 1C.

Now, I do have some MP 700 mAh R-CR123 cells. Charging at 600 mA I am at 0.86C, so I am still good, but when the cell drops to 80%, I will end up charging at 1.07C. Since I am at the very end of useful life, I don't see this as much of a problem even though I am slightly over 1C.

What is the rating on the R-CR123 cells that you are using?

Pila only recommends charging new style Pila cells with the IBC charger. I believe that is a marketing ploy and an effort to limit their liability, rather than a valid safety consideration. After doing extensive testing on this charger, it does everything right and is well suited for charging all Li-Ion cells 600 mAh or greater.

Tom

 

[glenda17]

600


But I would be very surprised if AW is really a 750 mA battery. I hope I am wrong. Just seems a little too close to the edge if you aren't very well versed. For a newbie I can't say a Pila + RCR123's is a good idea.