Humans = good for earth????

L.E.D.

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yes ted it's quite sad. Think about this: Everytime you breathe air anywhere on earth, you are inhaling minute amounts of Strontium-90, which was dispersed throughout THE atmosphere when atomic bombs were detonated. Strontium 90 is a mutagen, (carcinogenic). it causes cancer. Every human now contains strontium-90, as well as many other harmful elements.

Humans are experiencing what you call "exponential growth". Most organisms do too, but they are exposed to many limiting factors (i.e. temperature, sibling rivalry, food, predators, water, etc.) once they reach a maximum due to limiting factors, their population chart goes into a sinosoidal movement. there was a term i learned in biology regarding the sinosoidal graph, i forgot it though. Now us, we have destroyed almost all limiting factors for us (ie. Air-conditioning, our babies don't kill each other, we horde food, we have guns to kill any predator, we have flowing water from our faucets, there's MANY other factors we deleted. compare this to limiting factors listed above) so, our population will keep growing until something REALLY bad happens (nuke, all natural resources drained, etc.)
And to make it worse, we are all over-consumers, I'm sure I don't need to explain what an overconsumer is. and, we're pissing in our own pool figuratively speaking (we are polluting like crazy). If you really think about it, Humans ARE DETRIMENTAL TO THE EARTH! We haven't helped it one bit, and if you say we created Carbon Dioxide for plants, large mammals (elephant, rhino, etc.) easily do enough of the job. It's as if we DON'T BELONG on earth. please help Ted the LED this is starting to get really creepy.
 

papasan

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humans aren't detrimental to the earth...the earth will be around long after we are gone...humans are detrimental to humans...and anything that gets in our way of killing ourselves...
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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friends, get a hold of "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn...perhaps you will find a little solice in it, as I did, if only because our predicament is spelled out so well, and so, so, entertainingly...
--a tear, and a smile face...TTL
 

L.E.D.

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sure we are (detrimental to earth) papasan.(I.E.: Species extinction, air pollution, Oceznic "RED ZONES" red zones are toxified water areas where marine life swim into it and die almost immediately., more water pollution, Ozone destruction, Habitat fragmentation, carcinogenic pollution, override of natural reconstruction [we take up natural resources to fast for nature to replenish them], more) We ARE making an impact on the earth, it's not as if we have no effects on earth. So please, since we don't have detrimental effects on earth, tell me some benefits earth has from us being here? Producing Carbon Dioxide? Sorry, large mammals, like I said, do a good enough job already. Don't think I'm a pescimistic jerk, I'm just pointing out facts about what our effects on earth are. Some of them could be relatively long term. We could easily eradicate all life on earth and any chance of it springing up again, too, by having world war III and even WWIV (such a horrific thought, i really HOPE were not stupid enough to have WWIII, but we ARE pretty stupid sometimes!)
 

The_LED_Museum

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColdLight:
by having world war III and even WWIV (such a horrific thought, i really HOPE were not stupid enough to have WWIII, but we ARE pretty stupid sometimes!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, at least we don't have an arsenal of antimatter weapons or nucleonic weapons yet.
Now that would f**k s**t up.
blush.gif
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shocked.gif
frown.gif

It's bad enough that we already have such nasties as fusion & fission based weapons and neutral particle weapons at our disposal.
mad.gif
 

K Horn

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Anyone who thinks that humans are detrimental to the earth should set
the example and leave the planet.
That way when the rest of us destroy
it, you'll get the last laugh.
OTHERWISE live your life and for
crying out loud stop watching the
"Lion King" (that circle of life crap
will make you dizzy until your head
explodes)

Living in excess and loving it!!!
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K Horn:
Anyone who thinks that humans are detrimental to the earth should set
the example and leave the planet.
That way when the rest of us destroy
it, you'll get the last laugh.
OTHERWISE live your life and for
crying out loud
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...hey K buy me a ticket and I'm outta here!
But in the meantime, since I can't get off the planet, I have gotten off the grid...you can have your indulgences, I have mine, no one is blaming you. It's just that every one can see the obvious (in this case any way) and the problem is to find what the root cause is, and I think it starts in the attitude that the universe has created and finally, after a few hundred million years of evolution, perfected mankind to this present point; nature's final and un-improvable expression, and there is no need to change any further, and earth and nature is here for our disposal, and anything we do is fine because this is our dominion...which it ain't.
ahhhhhhhhhhh-mehhhhnnnnnnn.......
 

papasan

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColdLight:
sure we are (detrimental to earth) papasan.(I.E.: Species extinction, air pollution, Oceznic "RED ZONES" red zones are toxified water areas where marine life swim into it and die almost immediately., more water pollution, Ozone destruction, Habitat fragmentation, carcinogenic pollution, override of natural reconstruction [we take up natural resources to fast for nature to replenish them], more) We ARE making an impact on the earth, it's not as if we have no effects on earth. So please, since we don't have detrimental effects on earth, tell me some benefits earth has from us being here? Producing Carbon Dioxide? Sorry, large mammals, like I said, do a good enough job already. Don't think I'm a pescimistic jerk, I'm just pointing out facts about what our effects on earth are. Some of them could be relatively long term. We could easily eradicate all life on earth and any chance of it springing up again, too, by having world war III and even WWIV (such a horrific thought, i really HOPE were not stupid enough to have WWIII, but we ARE pretty stupid sometimes!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to paraphrase george carlin...maybe the earth just wanted plastic and didn't know how to make it...so she made us...

99% of the species that have gone extinct on this planet have done so long before we came about...

it's pretty damn concieted to think that we're so powerful, i think...the earth has taken much mroe abuse in it's history then we have done to it...imagine the billions of years of massive volcanic activity and bombardment from space debris...what re a few nucluer missles?...

i don't think that any of the 'life threatening' illustrations you made are all that life threatening...just human threatening...life will go on...it will adapt to the messes we leave behind...they are also very short term thinking...maybe we could 90% eradicate life for a million years, but so what?...just a drop in the bucket...

but thanks for trying to elevate us to walking gods with complete control over the universe...
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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uh oh, some one needs a hug ...by posting "ignorance is bliss, isn't it?" I meant it as truism..but stated it as a question...
truism
\Tru"ism\, n. [From True.] An undoubted or self-evident truth; a statement which is pliantly true; a proposition needing no proof or argument; -- opposed to falsism.
...but I posed it as a question.
...and it is, isn't it?
Papasan, send me your mailing address and I'll send you, free of charge, one copy of "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, perhaps, hopefully, you will find it more valuable than my last post...
..
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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From some of my general science reading (Science News, Scientific American, etc.):

- Enough species have already been driven to extinction due to human activity to qualify as one of the 5 or 6 largest extinction events in the geological record. That includes events like the K-T extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs (not by any means the biggest one).

- If every human on the planet used as many resources as the average American, we would need an additional 4 Earths to supply those resources. (And I think that's already at a non-renewable rate.)

Are human beings bad for the biosphere? I'd say so.
 

K Horn

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eccentrich:
From some of my general science reading (Science News, Scientific American, etc.):

- Enough species have already been driven to extinction due to human activity to qualify as one of the 5 or 6 largest .....

- If every human on the planet used as many resources as the average American, we would need an additional 4 Earths.......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

77% of all statistics are made up right on the spot
smile.gif

I think everyone would like to work at keeping the planet clean. Its just those other hidden agenda's that most EARTHFIRST people have that I DON'T CARE FOR!!! They won't be happy until humans are extinct. They would also like to see the U.S. kicked down a few notches economicaly and politically as well. IN FACT, I would bet that many of them were secretly cheering on 9/11....(PROOF would be some of Clinton's comments since Sept.).
ONCE AGAIN I state: If you don't like what the humans are doing then....Get out of your environmentally controlled house, walk to your nearest rainforest, and commune with nature.......stop complaining and set the example. If your successfull, others will follow. HEY JIM JONES DID IT!!!!

I will leave this thread alone now.....
 

L.E.D.

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but thanks for trying to elevate us to walking gods with complete control over the universe...-Yea, right. by the way, i said earth, not universe, i didn't say we have total control over it you .... nevermind. you're totally confusing points here. Funny you assumed i was trying to say that.

uhhh, papasan!!!!! You think that I'm saying we're POWERFUL??? YOU ARE PRETTY DAMN WRONG THERE!!!! I'm saying we're total a**holes. and, yes, we ARE the most powerful species on this earth, papasan, and it's a fact, a sad fact, don't try to say we're not the most powerful. It's not being arrogant I'd have to say it's rather humbling to know that we're the only species capable of damaging earth. If you think it's aragont to point out that we're the only species capable of damaging earth, I suggest that you go to a psychiatrist. Eather that or a CAT scan. Tell me another species (on earth) that could easily destroy earth. Trust me, we COULD easily destroy earth using all of our 300,000 (i think there's actually more, it's just a conservative estimate) nuclear weapons. What am i talking about?? we already ARE destroying small parts of earth rapidly as i speak! but, the Earth HAS been around for so many millions of years, and it hasn't been damaged as bad as the small amount of time we've been here!! If you compared the planet's lifetime to a week (monday-sunday), we only came here a few seconds before the next week would start, bet yet we've done worse damage (not talking species extinction, the big comet already beat us to that, I'm talking carcinogenic pollution, etc. Radiation.) what does one nuke do? it puts out an unnatural mutagen called "strontium 90". what does a volcano do???? No Carcinogens or Radiation, just a lot of CO2 and maybe CO1. Papasan, you're breathing it right now! isn't it FUN! Let's breathe in free radicals papasan, it feels nice for the LUNGS! sorry I was just kind of angry at you for thinking that i was being arrogant. I was NOT. I guess i was going insane just looking at all the FACTS.
Oh yeah, about that guy who said mother earth didn't know how to make plastic, we did, and by making plastic (polystyrene) We also made a fun mess of cancer causing particles (Polystyrene). I REALLY don't think the earth wanted plastic, WE did!! We are unnatural, and bad for the earth papasan. Nature could never create Strontium-90 (please, tell me how a Plutonium reactor would form naturally), Polystyrene, like that guy said about plastic, Red zones, etc. there are MANY more i could list here.

KHorn, it's not that everyone needs to go to the jungles or rainforest or whatever and start living very primively. It's just overproduction needs to be toned down a LOT. there are a lot of ways we could fix things up a bit without having to go to drastic measures like you said (go live in the forests).
 

papasan

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ted, i would call what you said a cliche, not a truism...but thanks for the definition anyhow...ignorance = making stupid decisions and helplessnes...i appreciate your offer but i don't spend nearly enough time reading any more to get to the ones i have lined up already...

(son playing with power socket.....play with him for awhile to distract him....)

now yes...we are, by far, the most powerful species around...perhaps not in all time (there is signifigant proof of a globally spanning civilization about 10,000 years ago) but definatly right now...i don't think the dolphins could destroy the earth if that's what you're eluding to =P...

this earth is *at least* 4.5 billion years old...4.5 billion...with a 'b'...in that time it has seen volcanic activity, tectonic upheaval, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, bombardment from massive asteroids, comets and the like, numerous ice ages, the magnetic poles shifting...these are just the ones that i could think up of the top of my head, i'm sure there are many more 'devistating' 'natural' happenings...

so you're telling me that humans have done more damage to this world in the last 1000 years (since our industial revolution) than it has seen in the 4.5 *billion* years before us?...i just find that hard to believe...

i do agree that we have some pretty devestating weapons...i do agree that if we wanted to we could put a hurting onto the eco system of this planet...a devistating hurting the likes of which probably hasn't been seen in a long, long time...but i do not agree that we could end all life and keep it from springing up again...

i say again, humans will kill themselves...the earth will go on...
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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I am exasperated at the prospect of trying to present you with some facts, and your unwillingness to read a book..and I can't very well give you a tutorial in world ecology and evolution of man on a message board...I recall Darrell's expression of exasperation; "..9 inch needles in my eyes!..." when I offered some evidently ignorant opinions about the relationship between petroleum and the production of electricity..
wink.gif

...right right, lots of natural disaster in the world, billions of years old, right, we're still here, so we must be doing it right? right?...what about the population? Around the time of the bible I understand the world population was about a million..When I was a kid the world population was 3 billion. I think it's over 7 billion today. See any unprecedented problem here?
You think the human species will survive anything , but I say we are crapping up the petri dish...extinct means extinct.
Ever wonder what the 'last days' would be like if it came to that? Just one species of every form of life left...what kind of bird would be the last to go? I think, ravens. They're tough, they're everywhere, they're smart...what kind of plant? Just kudzu, probably, everywhere? What would be the last fish in the sea? The last mammal?
 

papasan

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ted the Led:
I am exasperated at the prospect of trying to present you with some facts, and your unwillingness to read a book.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not unwillingnes...i will give you my address if it will make you feel better...it's just that i have a long line of books and not enough time as it is...i did look up 'ishmael' after you had mentioned it (never heard of it before)...sounds like an interesting flight of fantsy with perhaps some nice anecdotes on the human condition...i'll e-mail you...

we're still here, so we must be doing it right?

not neccassarily...einstein said that god doesn't play dice but was proven wrong by quantum physics...chance that we are here...and i really don't think we are doing all that 'well'...

Just one species of every form of life left...what kind of bird would be the last to go? I think, ravens. They're tough, they're everywhere, they're smart...what kind of plant? Just kudzu, probably, everywhere? What would be the last fish in the sea? The last mammal?

this would be fine if evolution just stopped for the rest of eternity, but i doubt that would happen...that's what animal adaptation is all about...new species that are better suited to live in the world will be born, thrive, then die off...at the risk of sounding like the lion king's cricle of life 'crap' that is how it works, how it has worked for millions of years, and how it will continue to work...this human conceit that somehow we broke out of this 'mold' or 'circle' or whatever it is amazes me...we think we are outside of nature now, somehow detatched from every other living creature that is and was and will be...

i am just a bug...

p.s. ted, your e-mail is turned off... [email protected] ...
 

**DONOTDELETE**

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by papasan:

this would be fine if evolution just stopped for the rest of eternity, but i doubt that would happen...that's what animal adaptation is all about...new species that are better suited to live in the world will be born, thrive, then die off...at the risk of sounding like the lion king's cricle of life 'crap' that is how it works, how it has worked for millions of years, and how it will continue to work...this human conceit that somehow we broke out of this 'mold' or 'circle' or whatever it is amazes me...we think we are outside of nature now, somehow detatched from every other living creature that is and was and will be...

i am just a bug...

p.s. ted, your e-mail is turned off... [email protected] ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUT that's exactly my point. Evolution HAS stopped for man, he is no longer at the mercy of the jungle...and he has taken the lives of the other inhabitants of earth, for ever! It takes millions of years for adaptation to occur, if it hurries! Man is wiping out species in a ten thousandth of that time. every day. Forget about adapting -- the otters in the sea north of here are dying of various diseases..no one problem, they're just succumbing to the accumulated onslaught of insults that come to them through the air and water, and they're immune systems are breaking down, and they get sick and die..maybe some day we will be left with a last breeding pair of superotter, and they will regenerate the otter race...? (This was the scenario with the North American black-footed ferret, btw, and you can find books from less than ten years ago that pronounced them extinct--but that's another story) but man kills off other species much faster than that by eliminating their habitats --
you can't adapt if you're extinct...
It's not "human conceit" that you speak of that makes us think we are no lnoger subject to laws of nature, it is obvious; we don't need to hunt or gather, we have agriculture, if the population goes to 9 billion, we'll grow more food and feed them, if some other population pisses us off, we'll carpet bomb them, we go anywhere faster than sound, we make life and death decisions for the rest of the world and it's animal and human inhabitants...all we haven't got completely under control is the weather, but we're working on it...
 

L.E.D.

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this earth is *at least* 4.5 billion years old...4.5 billion...with a 'b'...in that time it has seen volcanic activity, tectonic upheaval, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, bombardment from massive asteroids, comets and the like, numerous ice ages, the magnetic poles shifting...these are just the ones that i could think up of the top of my head, i'm sure there are many more 'devistating' ' Hey papasan, look: ---------->natural<-------' happenings...

so you're telling me that humans have done more damage to this world in the last 1000 years (since our industial revolution) than it has seen in the 4.5 *billion* years before us? yes. Tell me, was there strontium 90 dispersed in the air from all those events you listed? did they make the air carcinogenic for a long time? No. Volcanoes and even large meteor strikes do not emit strontium-90, maybe CO1 and CO2, maybe even some other sh**, but trust me, not as bad as S-90...i just find that hard to believe...Well believe it. Back then breathing the air wouldn't cause cancer, fish didn't have extra eyes due to free radicals in water, there were no holes in the ozone layer, a squirrel would have to walk across a road to get to another place (habitat fragmentation), and there are many more. I find YOU cool because you are transmitting a pattern of photons in your signature line which stimulate my optic nerve to tell my brain that I am viewing a relatively young male homosapien.

i do agree that we have some pretty devestating weapons...i do agree that if we wanted to we could put a hurting onto the eco system of this planet...a devistating hurting the likes of which probably hasn't been seen in a long, long time...but i do not agree that we could end all life and keep it from springing up again...i suppose i was wrong about us being able to kill ALL life, but trust me we could do much more damage than anything else on earth.

i say again, humans will kill themselves...the earth will go on...
 
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