Hurrican SANDY 2012 - Prediction as to LIGHTS OUT?

EZO

EZO

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I think the sequence of phone companies went something like this - New York Telephone, bought out by Bell Atlantic, bought out by NYNEX, bought out by Verizon....

Not sure if it was New York Telephone or NYNEX that installed the underground conduit.

I am referring to a suburban area, not rural. They buried the conduit on the major roads, where it gets to the actual houses, it comes above ground.

The path was similar here but Verizon eventually sold off their land lines in these parts to FairPoint.

Yes, most of the conduits are along major roads and the last mile, or whatever goes to the houses via wires and poles. On the other hand it is quite common now that telephone and electrical power are also taken from the utility poles and run underground to homes and businesses. There are several reasons for this. It is less unsightly to eliminate the wires, it is far more reliable during storms and it is much less expensive than having to install extra utility poles (sometimes at the property owner's expense). Here in Vermont there are many (very well maintained) dirt roads, so it is no big deal to dig a trench across a road to install conduit to a building since it doesn't require tearing up and repairing pavement.
 
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will

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There are no dirt roads, they are all either asphalt, or concrete, ( in some cases, asphalt over a concrete base )
 
Poppy

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Big pot-little pot:

waterpurificationsurviv.png

Exactly but if you don't know what's contaminating your water plain distillation may not help at all.


If you are trying to trying to remove chemicals distillation will not (always) be enough. You will need fractional distillation to remove many chemicals from water (by distillation.)

Without fractional distillation the lighter chemicals 'come over' before the water boils and the heavier chemicals come over after the water boils, giving you pretty much the same soup you started out with, minus the bacteria.

As an example, if you try to do a straight distillation of water contaminated with acetone, it will turn to vapor and run through the condenser at 134 degrees F while your water is still just warming up.


...Start out with the steam line from the cooker set (with valves) to vent all vapors. Once you get to 212 DF set the valves to go into the condenser and on to the product tank. When the temps in the cooker begin to climb much above 212 DF it means that (all) the water is gone. Go back into 'vent mode' and kill the heat source. You're done.

With this M.O. you must be attentive and observant but you will divert any contaminant with a boiling point below that of water's and you stop before the temps go high enough to bring across any chemical with a boiling point above water's.

Another benefit is that with a tight fractional distillation you don't have to know what chemical is in the water (which would often be the case in an emergency). This method just excludes them all.

.

Sorry Guys, I just wanted to revisit this section of the thread.

I just want to get some clarification regarding fractional distilling.

Considering the fact that I am not about to build a still, complete with valves, thermometers, cooling tubes and such, I'd like to know if this would work.

Let's say that I have a 6-8 quart pot and fill it half way with water and bring it to a boil. How long would I have to let it boil until I'd be able to consider it safe to start distilling? IOW for acetone and other more volitile products to evaporate out?
Then I could do the cup in a pot trick noted in the picture to distill water. When the water level gets low enough, I can toss it and start over (considering that it might contain heavy metals or whatever).
 
T

TEEJ

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Sorry Guys, I just wanted to revisit this section of the thread.

I just want to get some clarification regarding fractional distilling.

Considering the fact that I am not about to build a still, complete with valves, thermometers, cooling tubes and such, I'd like to know if this would work.

Let's say that I have a 6-8 quart pot and fill it half way with water and bring it to a boil. How long would I have to let it boil until I'd be able to consider it safe to start distilling? IOW for acetone and other more volitile products to evaporate out?
Then I could do the cup in a pot trick noted in the picture to distill water. When the water level gets low enough, I can toss it and start over (considering that it might contain heavy metals or whatever).


You want to evaporate the water to steam, and then condense the steam, and collect the water that results. This leaves the particles and heavy metals, etc, behind.

Of course, the VOC evaporate sooner than the water itself, so you can start by NOT boiling the water, just getting it hot enough, and aerated enough, to drive off the VOC from it. If you know your VOC of concern, you can use ITS boiling point to drive it off, etc.

So the quick and dirty method is to get the water hot enough and stirred enough to evaporate the lower BP chemicals (Lower than 212º F), perhaps quite a while if there's a lot of crap in there, etc. If you collect whatever evaporates off before the water, you may be able to use it as fuel. If you want a VOC with a PARTICULAR BP, you can bring the water to the target's BP, and collect it separately (How a still to make moonshine works, etc...).

A sub-212º condenser (~ 211º F) set-up can be one direction to allow the distillate to go until ready for clean water....then switch to the potable plumbing to get the good stuff.

Use 212º F for the potable after the VOC's are out. Don't go higher to speed things up, as there ARE things with higher BP too...that you might want to leave behind.

:D
 
Poppy

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Thanks TEEJ, I understand the concept, but here's my thought.
First in a crappy situation, I may not have a thermometer, nor will it be likely that I'd know what VOCs are in the water, who knows?
Without a thermometer, at sea-level water boils at 212F give or take a degee or two. Without a cover, I don't think that you could heat it much over that, maybe a degree or two (correct me if I am wrong). So I'm thinking that it takes time to get to that temp, and by time I get it to boil, and let it boil for idk... ten minutes, by then I'd hope that the more volitile VOCs would have escaped. Leaving me with a pot of water and things that need to get hotter than 212 to evaporate.

Do you think that 10 minutes of boiling would be long enough? If not... can you think of a way to determine when the last of the VOCs have evaporated out?
 
Poppy

Poppy

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I realized that my last question was similar to "How long is a string?" :crazy:

Wondering how hard it would be to separate out deadly hydrocarbons by distilling them I found this table... I hope it presents well.

Fuels and their boiling points at atmospheric pressure can be found in the table below.

  • T(oC) = 5/9[T(oF) - 32]
Fuel
Boiling Point (oF)
Acetaldehyde
70
Acetone
134
Acetylene
-119.2
Benzene
176.2
Butylene
21.2
Ethyl Alcohol
172
Ethane
-127.5
Ethylene
-154.7
Fuels Oil No.1
304 - 574
Gasoline
100 - 400
IsoButane
10.9
Isobutene
19.6
Isopropyl alcohol
181
Iso-Octane
243.9
IsoPentane
82.2
Kerosine
304 - 574
Methane (Natural Gas)
-258.7
Methyl Alcohol
149
n-Butane
31.1
n-Heptane
209.1
n-Hexane
155.7
n-Octane
258.3
n-Pentane
97.0
n-Pentene
86.0
Naphthalene
424.4
NeoPentane
49.1
NeoHexane
121.5
Propane
-43.8
Propylene
-53.9
Triptane
177.6
Toluene
231.1
Xylene
281.1


  • T(oC) = 5/9[T(oF) - 32]
I'm thinking that the most likely contaminents (other than biological) would be gasoline and fuel oils, or that they would be the ones in the highest concentrations, in a flooding scenario. I'm also thinking that for the most part these baddies will float on water. And if we started with a five gallon bucket and skimmed off the top layer to whatever level seemed prudent that we would eliminate the bulk of this stuff without distilling it.

tolulene has the closest boiling point to water of those listed above, but it is also lighter than water and should therefore float to the top.
Actually n-heptane is the closest but it is so much lighter than water it should certainly float to the top.
 
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T

TEEJ

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Notice I used 212º and less than 212º as cut-points.

Water boils at 212º, so, when it boils, that's the temperature...just get it there and hold it for the potable part.

If you get it to boil, and back off ANY AT ALL, it will stop boiling. (You can have hot spots if you have a pot on a burner instead of evenly distributed heat, etc....but this is for EMERGENCY water...)

So, the ~ 211º water loses the VOC that boil at 211º or less.....let it do it, mixing it, etc. (If you see a rainbow sheen on the water, well, its definitely still got VOC. :D

If you put a condenser on the steam coming off the 211º water, it might contain something other than water...and you might be able to burn it, etc.

What's LEFT is the stuff that DOESN'T boil off at 211º F for your purposes.

Raise the temp just enough to GET the boil, and that will be 212º F for your purposes....condense it with a different condenser (Not the one you used to collect the toxins...), and that's the part you drink.

:D

IE: Unless you pressurize the container, or add salt/have a very mineral loaded source, the water won't go much above 212º on a boil. (Those things won't follow the water after it turns to steam though)
 
PhotonWrangler

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I can understand Verizon not being able to access some buildings for access to conduits. I can't understand them not having enough fiber optic equipment.
 
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Monocrom

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I c an understand Verizon not being able to access some buildings for access to conduits. I can't understand them not having enough fiber optic equipment.

I can.

At one point in time, I had to deal with Verizon rather extensively. Based on simply my own personal experience, I found the company to be very unprofessional. Got rid of Verizon, and will never have anything directly to do with them. Ironically, they still keep contacting me. When I tell them to leave me alone, they keep asking why I was unhappy with them. Next representative foolish enough to ring my door-bell will find out why indeed.
 
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Norman

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If you tell them not to call, and they do, doesn't that fall under harassment? Isn't there somebody that can deal with these complaints? Typically, the telephone company would be the starting point, but since Verizon IS a phone company, you'd need to go above them. Who licences the local phone carriers? The next time you see a cop on the street, ask. They should know the next step because the following one would likely be pressing charges...

Apparently Verizon has too many employees. I ran across another story saying they're trying to cut their staffing levels (don't remember if it was just service crews). So I guess there's no rush on getting these people their DSL & phone service.
 
Monocrom

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Calls I can deal with, but these geniuses ring my door-bell. I live in a building which has an agreement with Verizon. Basically, they use our roof as a cell tower. They enter the building somewhat often. Usually under the pretext of maintenance or to check that everything is still okay with their equipment. In exchange, the building's residents are supposed to get a discount if they switch phone, internet, and cable service to Verizon. But having spoken with many of my neighbors, I know that most got rid of Verizon after switching. We used to have an agreement with Time Warner Cable.

Though not ideal, that agreement was significantly better for us than the one with Verizon. And if all they're doing is maintenance, why is it that the Verizon reps. who ring our door-bells are always young women with manicured fingers, and nice dresses. Not a jumpsuit, tool-belt, or speck of dirt in sight. I'm supposed to be believe that's the standard uniform for their maintenance crews?? They've also pulled some other unprofessional nonsense in the building (and just outside of it) to get residents to switch. Or, more accurately, switch back to Verizon after having gotten rid of the service.
 
PhotonWrangler

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They've also pulled some other unprofessional nonsense in the building (and just outside of it) to get residents to switch. Or, more accurately, switch back to Verizon after having gotten rid of the service.

I'm going to take a wild guess here. Did they mess with the other provider's service?
 
Monocrom

Monocrom

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I'm going to take a wild guess here. Did they mess with the other provider's service?

Not aware of that taking place. But harassing building residents as they come home from work, after admitting they were unhappy with Verizon . . . I'd call that unprofessional. They even set up a "customer appreciation" table right by the front door. The co-ops' Board members responsible with the deal with Verizon, ALL got replaced with new members when election time rolled around. (It wasn't even close.) The new members at least put an end to Verizon's version of "customer appreciation."
 
PhotonWrangler

PhotonWrangler

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Not aware of that taking place. But harassing building residents as they come home from work, after admitting they were unhappy with Verizon . . . I'd call that unprofessional. They even set up a "customer appreciation" table right by the front door. The co-ops' Board members responsible with the deal with Verizon, ALL got replaced with new members when election time rolled around. (It wasn't even close.) The new members at least put an end to Verizon's version of "customer appreciation."

Well that's mildly encouraging.
 
StarHalo

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I loved having FiOS, just not paying for it. In the era of Hulu/Amazon Prime, I'm not really seeing the point of paying more than ~$20/mo for television..
 

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