I am suddenly not pleased at all with Surefire.

[asdalton]

Yes, "useable light"--which is the wrong standard to use, since people see the runtime numbers and naturally interpret them as full output. (And if I need to use the high beam for some purpose, then 10% of that output is probably not useable.)

If Surefire wants people to know the runtime for "useable" output, then they should at least accompany those numbers with the regulated output runtime.

 

[Marduke]

If Surefire wants people to know the runtime for "useable" output, then they should at least accompany those numbers with the regulated output runtime.

But that would mean they would be like..... like...... Fenix!!!!


But seriously. Listing the regulated runtime on a regulated light?? That doesn't make sense at all. :shrug:

 

[D-Dog]

But that would mean they would be like..... like...... Fenix!!!!

😀 oh nooo... next they might start using Q5's/R2's too...(Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

But yes, I think that this is a legitimate concern as I for one believe the runtime is time until 50% at which most people would notice the dimming and consider switching the batteries. Not unless I was completly out of every cell would I ever run a light down to nothing... what if I needed the high mode and didn't have it? (this is considering I am using a multi-mode light of course)

Especially with Surefire's being built primarily for military/LEO's/ etc... I am very surprised they rate this way as it could even be dangerous in certain situations

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I edited my post, #54.

Bill

 

[maxa beam]

😀 oh nooo... next they might start using Q5's/R2's too...(Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

But yes, I think that this is a legitimate concern as I for one believe the runtime is time until 50% at which most people would notice the dimming and consider switching the batteries. Not unless I was completly out of every cell would I ever run a light down to nothing... what if I needed the high mode and didn't have it? (this is considering I am using a multi-mode light of course)

Especially with Surefire's being built primarily for military/LEO's/ etc... I am very surprised they rate this way as it could even be dangerous in certain situations

Cause the military doesn't know how to read runtime charts. :shakehead

 

[kongfuchicken]

So, you would have NO PROBLEM with every company listing runtime of a REGULATED light as a point at the tail end of the moon mode??

Nah, I don't see any issues with that at all.... Completely clear and honest.... Just like how LED Lenser does it.....

I'm not a fan of these misleading numbers any more than the next bloke but thinking in their shoes for a minute, the alternative is that SF might lose a lot of potential business from clueless mass of people (and I don't mean that in a negative way; let's face it, the percentage of people who are either a cpf'er or of EE background in the general populace is fairely small) who would otherwise think "that led-lenser will get me 5 more hours of light from my batteries than the SF. NEAT! I'll take that one!"

The fact that SF makes output graphs available shows they aren't trying to fool anyone, just trying to compete on a market where their reputation doesn't have as much reach.
Just picture an average guy reading a SF package and trying to decipher arcane wording the likes of "6 hours of regulation followed by 5 hours of usable moon mode"

And I'll use a real example to illustrate my point:
A friend who is also a EE graduate once bought a lightwave 4000 because it was advertised to have a runtime of over a month (over 800 hours). He still doesn't have the faintest and when I asked him, he was completely satisfied with it.

 

[Marduke]

Cause the military doesn't know how to read runtime charts. :shakehead

Because your average John Q. Public soldier or LEO has to buy their own lights and doesn't know the first thing about bins or regulation, so they trust the company they know and have heard of. Apparently that blind trust is not such a good thing.

The fact that SF makes output graphs available shows they aren't trying to fool anyone, ....

Where?? For every light they make?? Their 2008 light catalog has a single graph.

 

[maxa beam]

Because your average John Q. Public soldier or LEO has to buy their own lights and doesn't know the first thing about bins or regulation, so they trust the company they know and have heard of. Apparently that blind trust is not such a good thing.

And what if they did?

"Hey, John, my light puts out 100 lumens! That's 10 more than they said it would! Hehe!"
"Mine puts out 100 too, and with a similar runtime but it's a different type of LED! =("

By the way, graphs are in the catalogs.

 

[jzmtl]

Cause the military doesn't know how to read runtime charts. :shakehead

Um dude, I think you need to go back and catch up what's going on in CPF for the last year. Surefire has been overrating runtime for a while now.

Maybe you have super duper night vision, but if I buy a 80 lumen light, 3 lumen is not useable for what I need 80 lumens for.

 

[maxa beam]

Um dude, I think you need to go back and catch up what's going on in CPF for the last year. Surefire has been overrating runtime for a while now.

Maybe you have super duper night vision, but if I buy a 80 lumen light, 3 lumen is not useable for what I need 80 lumens for.

But they tell you that it's that period of time untill that particular output.

 

[Marduke]

But they tell you that it's that period of time untill that particular output.

No, they don't. That's the whole point. With most of the models, you have a "max output" and a "usable runtime" figure, which are in no way related.

Those are actually the same values given by LED Lenser, and we all know how they are viewed by the CPF community for specifically those reasons.

 

[maxa beam]

No, they don't. That's the whole point. With most of the models, you have a "max output" and a "usable runtime" figure, which are in no way related.

""Useful" is defined as approximately one lumen"

 

[jzmtl]

But they tell you that it's that period of time untill that particular output.

No they don't. I'm looking at their 2008 catalogue right now and this is what I see

And in the entire catalogue there is one runtime graph, with 6P and G3.

 

[maxa beam]

No they don't. I'm looking at their 2008 catalogue right now and this is what I see

And in the entire catalogue there is one runtime graph, with 6P and G3.

And I'm looking in their 2008 catalog right now and I see "USABLE LIGHT is defined as approximately 1 lumen, enough to light a keyhole, read a map, or find something inside a pack." and " So if a flashlight's max output is listed as 80 lumens with 12 hours of runtime it will initially produce 80 lumens but its output will eventually level off to a lesser but still substantial amount and continue to decline as battery power depletes."

 

[Marduke]

""Useful" is defined as approximately one lumen"

Defined by who? The same people who are telling you that 1 lm is the accepted definition of "useful"?


Where is the line? If you buy a 2 lumen light, sure, 1 lumen is still useful. If you buy a 100 lumen light, is 1 lumen still considered "useful" for that light? What if you buy a 1000 lumen Mag mod? Is 1 lumen still considered being useful for it?

If the sun suddenly sputtered out tomorrow, but glowed at 1 lumen, would farmers still say that everything is ok, it's still putting out a "useful" level of light?

For a police officer needing a tactical light, try telling them that 1 lumen is "useful" when they are trying to blind a bad guy, while they are being kicked in the groin because all they could bring to the table is a perfectly "useful" 1 lumen "tactical" light.

 

[maxa beam]

Defined by who? The same people who are telling you that 1 lm is the accepted definition of "useful"?


Where is the line? If you buy a 2 lumen light, sure, 1 lumen is still useful. If you buy a 100 lumen light, is 1 lumen still considered "useful" for that light? What if you buy a 1000 lumen Mag mod? Is 1 lumen still considered being useful for it?

If the sun suddenly sputtered out tomorrow, but glowed at 1 lumen, would farmers still say that everything is ok, it's still putting out a "useful" level of light?

For a police officer needing a tactical light, try telling them that 1 lumen is "useful" when they are trying to blind a bad guy, while they are being kicked in the groin because all they could bring to the table is a perfectly "useful" 1 lumen "tactical" light.

Good thing farmers don't use flashlights as a substitute for photosynthesis, and good thing police officers don't use flashlights as a substitute for weapons.

Also, read above post for what one lumen is good for.

 

[jzmtl]

And I'm looking in their 2008 catalog right now and I see "USABLE LIGHT is defined as approximately 1 lumen, enough to light a keyhole, read a map, or find something inside a pack." and " So if a flashlight's max output is listed as 80 lumens with 12 hours of runtime it will initially produce 80 lumens but its output will eventually level off to a lesser but still substantial amount and continue to decline as battery power depletes."

But where, in the picture I posted, do they state the 11 hours is not full 80 lumen but "usable output"?

Also, read above post for what one lumen is good for.

I know what it's NOT good for, it's not good for what I need 80 lumen to do.

 

[maxa beam]

But where, in the picture I posted, do they state the 11 hours is not full 80 lumen but "usable output"?

I'm not going to argue what is usable since that's another different mess.

I could post a one micron picture of a specification page of some light manufacturer and say "WHERE DO THEY SAY THIS?! HMMH!?"

It's in the catalog. Check page 44 in the paper version atleast

And are you ALWAYS gonna need a 80 lumen light to go full throttle 24/7? And when will 50% of 80 lumens always be sufficient?

 

[Marduke]

I could post a one micron picture of a specification page of some light manufacturer and say "WHERE DO THEY SAY THIS?! HMMH!?"

It's in the catalog. Check page 44 in the paper version atleast

That wasn't the question. On the product's info and spec page, where does it say that??

And are you ALWAYS gonna need a 80 lumen light to go full throttle 24/7? And when will 50% of 80 lumens always be sufficient?

For a light that is heavily marketed as being tactical grade, when is 1 lumen ever sufficient??

 

[Black Rose]

Soooooo....anyone have any more comments about the LED issue the OP was talking about before this puppy gets locked? :thinking: