I lived my entire life without debt

raggie33

*the raggedier*
Joined
Aug 11, 2003
Messages
12,698
payed cash for my new home and all my new toys but im now broke again. but that just becuase i didnt relize how much it cost to move and how much stuff id have to repair. but everything is now new.. well not my toilets or dishwasher but im working on that
 

Monocrom

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Not directly via a line item, but it's absolutely passed on to you via increases in rent come contract renewal time.
Not if you look for a new place near renewal time, and then simply walk away if your current landlord tries that nonsense. I get it.... Not a good option in certain parts of the world, but it is in America. Last place the whole family lived together, the landlord was fond of saying he could easily rent the place out for thousands of dollars more if we moved out. Well, got to the point that my dad got sick of his mouth. So, we moved out. Found out from the landlord's business partner (different business) that he did jack up the rates. And, no one bit!

Place hilariously sat empty for 9 months. Yup, 9 months of lost rental revenue. Finally, someone moved in.... after the landlord reduced his Asking Price by $200 a month less than what my dad was paying him. Stupid, greedy pig got what he deserved. So, if you're a renter, moving out is an option if the landlord gets too greedy.
 

Monocrom

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payed cash for my new home and all my new toys but im now broke again. but that just becuase i didnt relize how much it cost to move and how much stuff id have to repair. but everything is now new.. well not my toilets or dishwasher but im working on that
Get you a couple of large buckets at Home Depot. 😉
 

idleprocess

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decamped
Not if you look for a new place near renewal time, and then simply walk away if your current landlord tries that nonsense. I get it.... Not a good option in certain parts of the world, but it is in America. Last place the whole family lived together, the landlord was fond of saying he could easily rent the place out for thousands of dollars more if we moved out. Well, got to the point that my dad got sick of his mouth. So, we moved out. Found out from the landlord's business partner (different business) that he did jack up the rates. And, no one bit!

Place hilariously sat empty for 9 months. Yup, 9 months of lost rental revenue. Finally, someone moved in.... after the landlord reduced his Asking Price by $200 a month less than what my dad was paying him. Stupid, greedy pig got what he deserved. So, if you're a renter, moving out is an option if the landlord gets too greedy.
Tactical victories can be had, but that doesn't change the fact that landlords are pass-through entities and renters pay property taxes and market rates routinely adjust to reflect increased assessments.

I gather there are some weird incentives in the commercial real estate market to accept vacancies rather than reduced rent that center on building valuations and typical 5-year financing periods. The TL;DR as I understood it is that vacancies hurt valuation considerably less than reducing rent and a good valuation means lower interest on financing or selling the property to another operator. There are limits of course as there's a minimum level of income to manage note payments, upkeep, etc.
 

Fuzzywuzzies

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
124
There's a brilliant verse in the Bible, spoken from God to the nation of Israel:

"…only if you carefully obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe with care all these commandments which I command you today. For the LORD your God will bless you just as He promised you; you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you."

I've found this excellent wisdom to live by. Debt-free is the best strategy.
owning your own business is better in this regard, as you can work the increase better.
It was 10 years of saving to afford to upgrade our vehicles, but we did it carefully and adjusted the amount regularly, and in the end the vehicles were far better options than we originally envisaged. Same goes for housing and property.

The reduction of stress is hugely beneficial too, as you don’t have the “I owe” mentality hanging over you 24/7. So I would argue you are better off in every dimension, anyway!
 

bykfixer

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Rent is always dead money, a house loan permits for the building of assets and as you have to pay rent anyway why not pay off YOUR loan and not your landlords, additional to which equity loans are a cheaper rate (than comparable loans) and loan redraw is even better for urgently required purchases (like a replacement vehicle), doing so keeps your repayments to one entity.

The biggest "speedhump" to this approach is inequitable divorce laws.

I too avoid CCs and thus have a poor credit rating (but no defaults), go figure? 🤣
When Mrs Fixer and I got married the housing bubble was still expanding and instead of paying way too much for a house we rented for a lot less than a mortgage would have been. When the bubble finally burst we bought a house for half what one would've cost during the peak. So yeah, I paid for rent for a time, but paid about 1/2 of what a mortgage payment would've been then when we bought we paid less for the mortgage than we'd been paying for rent.

In the end I was about $100k ahead vs if I had bought a house during the peak. Even my pop was impressed. I said "it won't me pop, believe me I aint that smart. No, it was divine intervention".
 

idleprocess

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When the bubble finally burst we bought a house for half what one would've cost during the peak.
My timing was fortuitous - bought in 2008 - before prior to the corporate relocation wave in the DFW area and also prior to the financial crisis tightening up lending requirements.
 

Lights and Guns

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Dec 25, 2016
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Not using credit cards the right way is a huge mistake.

I have about 5 credit cards in total.

Have been using them the past two decades or so.

All my purchases will go on them.

I pay them off on time in full, and never charge more to them then I can afford to pay.

In all these years I have never once missed a payment or paid ANY interest.

What I have done however is accrued TONS of “points” which if you know how to redeem them (the right way) for travel …. It is just AMAZING

Just one example… was able to redeem points to fly first class to Japan. I used about $1,100 worth of points had I redeemed them for cash… guess how much a first class ticket cost? In the ballpark of $18,000-$20,000…

The value was tremendous and gave me an experience that I’d never be able to afford otherwise…. All because instead of paying for daily life things with cash I would pay with a CC…

The banks hate people like me… They have never made a dime off me, but I’ve taken them for every free incentive they’ve offered.

Banks always offer incentives for opening checking /saving accounts. The accounts are free and don’t effect your credit at all…. And they will reward you with $200-$600 for doing so.

I’ve made close to $2,000 this year from taking advantage of these offers… the best part once the bank forks over the incentive money to me… I close the accounts out next day, once I withdraw all the money in there. - beauty of it all is after about 2 years (depending on the bank), you qualify for the sign up incentive again! So you rinse and repeat…

It’s not life changing money, but the way I look at it is, $2000 of play money to buy lights and whatever else … that I didn’t work for.

I used the credit cards and banks to my advantage… I never used them to the banks advantage… if that makes sense

Also, like you I have never once been in debt my entire life. Paid everything off in full including my JEEP…

The only one thing I’d say debt is OKAY for is real estate. It’s better to take on a mortgage (one that you can comfortable afford) … then rent forever and never build any equity at all…

Building equity in a home takes a long time, but once you have been there for 15-20 years, you’ll have a ton of cash in the property accessible to you…. VS a renter for 20 years who doesn’t have a dime in equity… (given both individuals paid the same per month)…

Lastly, don’t feel bad about your situation it could always be worse… some people in certain countries around the world live in sheds held together by mud… they make in a year what some of us make in a week or a month… life is all perspective, we can see the bad and dwell on it, or see all the good that surrounds us and allow that to drown out the bad.
 

Eldan

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Joined
Aug 20, 2023
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USA
I have to disagree with a couple of points in this thread. First, rent is not "dead money." Rent is an expense, just like most of the cost of owning a house is. Much of the time, when you consider all costs, you can rent a home for less total monthly cashflow than if you purchased an equivalent home. When you buy that home, a bank is requiring you to pay back principal over time and people with a vested interest in selling you real estate call that "building equity." Nothing wrong with this plan if it's what you want. I'm doing it too. But you can also "force" yourself to build equity by renting and investing the monthly cash you saved by renting. In the long run you there's a fair chance you come out ahead financially. There's nothing wrong with renting if you like the place you live and nobody should feel bad about it.

Second, banks don't "hate you" if you don't carry a balance. They love you, because you use the card a lot and have a very low risk of default. As long as you use the card and they collect the merchant fees, you're a great customer.
 

jtr1962

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Nov 22, 2003
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Flushing, NY
Zero debt, ever. No credit cards, no bank loans for anything, no auto loans. I always thought - If you want something, save your pennies until you have enough. I always borrowed from myself, from my emergency fund. At zero percent interest loan you might say.
After the fiasco with my student loan, I vowed never to borrow for any reason ever again. Sure, I have credit cards for convenience, but the balances always get paid in full at the end of the month. I don't like owing people money. If you can't pay, which was the case with my student loan, eventually the debt becomes multiples of what you borrowed. Student loans are actually the worst kind of debt other than loan sharks. $8,400 principal eventually turned into over $1 million to pay it off, at least according to one of the collection agencies my loan got assigned to.

Credit cards aren't much better. 28% interest is usury. The worst financial decision anyone can make is to keep ongoing CC balances.
My zero credit life never got validated. I have zero debt but also no significant assets.
No savings or retirement accounts? I was so tired of being poor when I was young that I saved virtually every penny once I started working. I HATED going to work. I vowed I never want to be forced to do a job I hate ever again, so I saved money as a cushion against that. Having money means you can be more picky about what you do for a living.
My ex on the other hand, declared bankruptcy and has 5-7 CCs, all behind and banks trust her more than me. She is flooded with CC offers. She is making them money with all their 22.9 APR. I was denied, initially despite my debt load to income ratio was very good. Banks want delinquency and do not want debts to get paid on time so they can collect interest.
Exactly. They want to collect lots of interest. Or even better, they want you to miss payments entirely so they can get collection fees in addition to interest. Just like the student loan system. They want people to default on their loans because that's where the real money starts for them.
I really never understood the concept of going into debt. It doesn't save you any money. You end up paying more for exactly the same stuff.
That makes two of us. I never needed to own a vehicle but that's the last thing I would borrow money for. A vehicle doesn't even qualify as an asset. Sure, in theory it's worth something if you sell it, but get in a bad collision and the value could drop to zero just like that. It's like having a pile of gold that someone can steal at any time.
If you can get into a $700 / month payment plan for a new/newer vehicle *now*, you could have started setting aside funds 6 years ago so by now you would have enough to buy things with cash. It's a sign of inability to plan or unwillingness and in the end you have to pay 30% of the total spent in interest payments.
Yep. I tell people how about just delaying your gratification a bit by not borrowing to buy stuff. When you do buy it with cash, put aside whatever you're now saving on interest for your next big purchase. Or better yet just keep that money aside for a rainy day. I recall an old saying about not spending all your prosperity at once because it won't last.
It's much worse with real estate. Interest payments consume a huge chunk of the whole thing. And if nobody borrowed and actually saved for 20 years before buying, real estate would be much cheaper and affordable. In fact it's easy credit which drove RE prices into the stratosphere. I remember the 1992 election well. One of the major planks of the winning party was economy, easy credit and they did in fact fulfil that promise, made credit far easier to get and as a result, RE prices began to grow at a very fast pace, there was a huge increase from 92 to mid 90's and then again mid 90s to 2000.. and so on.
Making credit easier was the single worst thing we ever did. Prices rising far faster than inflation meant the idea of saving up to buy a house no longer worked. How could you save when prices were going up each year by more than the amount you could save? If prices were stable relative to inflation at least you know if you set aside, say, 10% of the price of a home, in 10 years you'll be able to buy with cash.

The only people who can buy with cash in today's market are mostly real estate investment firms. And I wish it was made 100% illegal for corporations to buy up homes. That's a big part of the reason for price inflation. I hear story after story of people getting outbid on homes by REITs. Traditionally, home prices generally kept pace with inflation. The last 40 years has been an anomaly. We're probably due for a huge market correction but when?

It's a pity doing the right thing like avoiding debt often doesn't pay off. But in the end I like the feeling of not owing anyone anything.
 

jtr1962

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Also, no offense intended. I think I saved the most amount of money by not getting married. It's not the marriage part that's expensive. It's the divorce part that is. I thought about it.... I make a commitment to another human-being who at any point in the future could decide to leave me for any number of reasons. Most of them, not valid and no where remotely reasonable. Plus, having been born with a certain set of private parts, I not only have to give her half my possessions. Which she's not obligated to reciprocate. I then get to pay her thousands upon thousands of dollars every month, for several years, for the privilege of having her leave me. Oh, and that sum increases substantially more, for a longer period of time if we had a child together.

Yeah........ How about screw that mentally diseased nonsense! No! Actually, hell no!
Not having children is an even smarter decision by far. I tell people if you do get married, don't have any children. If you get divorced, you may or may not have to give your former wife alimony. Sometimes if she makes more she'll have to give YOU alimony. But if there are kids, forget it. Alimony and child support at least until the youngest one graduates college.
In fairness, when you rent, you don't have to worry about property taxes going up simply due to greedy politicians. And, you don't have to worry about the septic system on the property. (Assuming there's a lease contract in place that spells out the individual responsibilities of the renter, and the landlord.)

Once saw a Neo-hippie being interviewed by a reporter after a hurricane devastated a local area. Relatively young guy, long hair, shorts and sandals. Hawaiian shirt. Sitting on someone's porch (believe it belonged to a buddy), trying to chop open a coconut with a machete. Had some interesting things to say about property ownership. He advised against it. House he was renting got decimated. He had very few worldly possessions and managed to save all of them. He felt sorry for his landlord. That guy lost everything when the rental property was demolished. Neo-hippie lost nothing. Why own something expensive that can so easily be taken away from you? Neo-hippie had a good point.
The increased property taxes generally get passed through in the form of higher rent. There are a lot of major downsides to renting:

1) Your landlord can refuse to renew your lease, or give you a large increase in rent which you can't afford. End result is you could be forced to move repeatedly. Moving is a huge PITA.

2) You can get vermin from your neighbors. That's far less likely if you live in a detached house.

3) You have to deal with noise from your neighbors. Again, if there's some distance between you and your neighbors, less of a problem.

4) Rent isn't tax deductible, mortgage interest is.

5) There are often stipulations on what you can do if your rent in terms of alterations or other changes.

I won't even count equity as a plus because the only way to cash in on it is to sell the home. Then you'll need some or most of that equity to buy your next place to live.

Good point you made if you own a home in an area prone to natural disasters. I would never buy a home in a very hurricane or flood prone area. In fact, I think people who buy homes near the water are nuts. It's all great until a Cat 4 or 5 comes, then the storm surge washes your home into the sea.
 

Lights and Guns

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Not having children is an even smarter decision by far. I tell people if you do get married, don't have any children. If you get divorced, you may or may not have to give your former wife alimony. Sometimes if she makes more she'll have to give YOU alimony. But if there are kids, forget it. Alimony and child support at least until the youngest one graduates college.

Children are a blessing. They are totally worth having in life, especially as one gets older...My parents are going on 40 years of marriage, with no end in sight. Raised a few really good children of their own, who have now given them grandchildren. The amount of joy spending time with their grandchildren they get is priceless. - Sure not all marriages work, but you have to find the right person, who shares your set of values and religion helps a lot.

Many times I find myself thinking what my parents' life would look like today had they never had children, a lot different I'd say. Probably in a negative way, the reason I say that is because the only regret they shared with me is not having 1 more child when they were younger! So clearly they loved raising children.

Imagine, not having any family to spend the holidays with, not having anybody to come over and visit with them on a daily basis, not really having anybody to go out and do fun things with in the world. We take family vacations all around the world together, it's a very good time and making great memories together, if anybody ever needed anything at all we are all there for each other, that's what family is all about. I understand not everybody has a great home-life but that doesn't mean you cannot create one for yourself. Lastly, if its money you are worried about in terms of marriage and children. Get a prenup before you get married. Prenups are a fantastic way to ensure that what you have going into the marriage will remain yours if the marriage doesn't work out. You can also both keep your own personal bank accounts even when married if you so choose and create 1 joint account that each of you will contribute to equally each month, then use that joint-account to pay for monthly expenses such as utilities, mortgage, groceries ect. This way throughout the relationship no one person is paying more than the other, it remains equal throughout.

The only times alimony is even a part of the equation is when you make a SUBSTANTIAL more amount of money per year then your spouse. The easiest way to avoid that, is not to marry somebody that doesn't make anything near what you make. Or even better, find somebody that is in a career field that makes more than you do. That way it is impossible for you to ever have to pay her any money. For example, my EX who I was with for 3 1/2 years wasn't really applying herself, wasn't "Getting after it" in life and never trying to better herself professionally. She seems content with what she was doing (equivalent to what a college student would do at the time). That was a huge red flag for me, and of course the relationship ended once the realization set in that I'd be having to support the both of us entirely for the rest of our lives. I make decent money, but didn't seem like a logical choice to make. Why not venture out and find somebody who is more like-minded when it comes to aspiring to achieve in life? -- Well, thats exactly what I did, and found myself a super family-oriented woman who loves children and family above all else, and who for the first 4 years of our relationship was making more money than I was!... Until I finally caught up to her.

As far as child support goes, unless you are a deadbeat, in and out of jail ... doing drugs... cheating on your spouse throughout the marriage ect. What you could do is get joint-custody of the children, and nobody can stop you from that unless it can be shown that you aren't fit to be a parent. That way no money is being given to anybody. Each parent can have the children equal amount of the time.

Obviously the goal isn't to break up, once you make that vow to once another, you need to be self-less and continue to work on the relationship day in and day out. But at the end of the day, it's well worth it. With a good foundation you can build an extremely successful and strong marriage. -- I see too many people treat relationships as "throw away" things that are easily replaceable. They also don't seem to give their children the time of day, the proper guidance, the tools to succeed in life... Then they wonder why their children are disrespectful to them as they grow. It's hard, but again... well worth it. If you choose the right partner and don't neglect your duties as a significant other and parent... Life will be filled with blessings.
 
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I have to disagree with a couple of points in this thread. First, rent is not "dead money." Rent is an expense, just like most of the cost of owning a house is. Much of the time, when you consider all costs, you can rent a home for less total monthly cashflow than if you purchased an equivalent home. When you buy that home, a bank is requiring you to pay back principal over time and people with a vested interest in selling you real estate call that "building equity." Nothing wrong with this plan if it's what you want. I'm doing it too. But you can also "force" yourself to build equity by renting and investing the monthly cash you saved by renting. In the long run you there's a fair chance you come out ahead financially. There's nothing wrong with renting if you like the place you live and nobody should feel bad about it.

Second, banks don't "hate you" if you don't carry a balance. They love you, because you use the card a lot and have a very low risk of default. As long as you use the card and they collect the merchant fees, you're a great customer.

First - Those are two good points.

Second - Welcome to CPF! :party:
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
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Flushing, NY
Children are a blessing. They are totally worth having in life, especially as one gets older...My parents are going on 40 years of marriage, with no end in sight. Raised a few really good children of their own, who have now given them grandchildren. The amount of joy spending time with their grandchildren they get is priceless. - Sure not all marriages work, but you have to find the right person, who shares your set of values and religion helps a lot.

Many times I find myself thinking what my parents' life would look like today had they never had children, a lot different I'd say. Probably in a negative way, the reason I say that is because the only regret they shared with me is not having 1 more child when they were younger! So clearly they loved raising children.

Imagine, not having any family to spend the holidays with, not having anybody to come over and visit with them on a daily basis, not really having anybody to go out and do fun things with in the world. We take family vacations all around the world together, it's a very good time and making great memories together, if anybody ever needed anything at all we are all there for each other, that's what family is all about. I understand not everybody has a great home-life but that doesn't mean you cannot create one for yourself. Lastly, if its money you are worried about in terms of marriage and children. Get a prenup before you get married. Prenups are a fantastic way to ensure that what you have going into the marriage will remain yours if the marriage doesn't work out. You can also both keep your own personal bank accounts even when married if you so choose and create 1 joint account that each of you will contribute to equally each month, then use that joint-account to pay for monthly expenses such as utilities, mortgage, groceries ect. This way throughout the relationship no one person is paying more than the other, it remains equal throughout.

The only times alimony is even a part of the equation is when you make a SUBSTANTIAL more amount of money per year then your spouse. The easiest way to avoid that, is not to marry somebody that doesn't make anything near what you make. Or even better, find somebody that is in a career field that makes more than you do. That way it is impossible for you to ever have to pay her any money. For example, my EX who I was with for 3 1/2 years wasn't really applying herself, wasn't "Getting after it" in life and never trying to better herself professionally. She seems content with what she was doing (equivalent to what a college student would do at the time). That was a huge red flag for me, and of course the relationship ended once the realization set in that I'd be having to support the both of us entirely for the rest of our lives. I make decent money, but didn't seem like a logical choice to make. Why not venture out and find somebody who is more like-minded when it comes to aspiring to achieve in life? -- Well, thats exactly what I did, and found myself a super family-oriented woman who loves children and family above all else, and who for the first 4 years of our relationship was making more money than I was!... Until I finally caught up to her.

As far as child support goes, unless you are a deadbeat, in and out of jail ... doing drugs... cheating on your spouse throughout the marriage ect. What you could do is get joint-custody of the children, and nobody can stop you from that unless it can be shown that you aren't fit to be a parent. That way no money is being given to anybody. Each parent can have the children equal amount of the time.

Obviously the goal isn't to break up, once you make that vow to once another, you need to be self-less and continue to work on the relationship day in and day out. But at the end of the day, it's well worth it. With a good foundation you can build an extremely successful and strong marriage. -- I see too many people treat relationships as "throw away" things that are easily replaceable. They also don't seem to give their children the time of day, the proper guidance, the tools to succeed in life... Then they wonder why their children are disrespectful to them as they grow. It's hard, but again... well worth it. If you choose the right partner and don't neglect your duties as a significant other and parent... Life will be filled with blessings.
I discussed a lot of this in another thread but for me even finding a person I'd have wanted to marry seemed like an impossible hill to climb, never mind the rest. I'm just THAT picky when it comes to the opposite sex. In many ways I'm kind of like that ex of yours, content to have less and never really earn much money. So children would have been out of the question, even if I wanted them. Just couldn't afford them unless she was a high earner. I never really did like or want kids though. I decided this by grade school. Nothing I've seen since has changed my mind about it. I saw myself as lots of things in life, but "father" was never really one of them. I'm not even sure I would have been a good husband, never mind a parent. Most likely my wife would have been mostly supporting me, or she would have had rich parents supporting both of us. In the latter case I might not have been totally averse to the idea of having children. I just didn't want to work a bunch of extra years having to support them. But if I didn't need to work, could spend lots of time with them doing fun things, maybe I'd have been open to it. If neither of us had to work, even better. Work schedules, money problems, and paying for kids are what seems to ruin a lot of marriages which otherwise might have been great.

My parents had a terrible marriage. That obviously colored things in a negative light for me. Hard to think about living some kind of normal life when you've never really known what that was. To me constant fighting seemed like a normal part of marriage. That's why I wanted no part of it. But in the end a lot of their fights were about money, my father's lack of ambition, and so forth. In many ways BOTH my parents were like children. Sometimes my siblings and I had to act like the adults. That said, I really think if my parents had come from money, didn't need to work, they would have been great parents, and had a great marriage. Both of them could be a lot of fun when they were in the mood. In a way, they were both still kids at heart, especially my dad. I'd have loved to build a huge train layout with him, if we had the space, time, and money.

Anyway, I'm 60 years old. I'm certainly not going to get married now, much less start a family. Don't have the money. I'm tied up taking care of my mom. I'm close with my siblings so at least we have that. I'd be well into my 80s by the time any potential kids graduated college. I'd obviously need to marry someone much younger if I wanted kids with her at all.

I'm glad you found a life you're happy in. I'm not unhappy with life. I probably wish I had someone to share it with, but that could happen down the line. No marriage, just share experiences together. If it gets old, go our separate ways.
 

idleprocess

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Much of the time, when you consider all costs, you can rent a home for less total monthly cashflow than if you purchased an equivalent home.
That's going to depend very much on the local market and how you weigh 'equivalent'. In 2008 I bought a house and my out the door every month (mortgage+taxes+insurance) for a 3/2.5 was less than renting a 1 bedroom apartment whose main 'extra' was an attached garage. While the timing cannot be replicated, the general situation in the DFW metro hasn't much changed. In more expensive metros - ala NYC, LA, SFO, Seattle, etc - the table stakes of buying a home are markedly greater thus the choice to rent simpler.

Imagine, not having any family to spend the holidays with, not having anybody to come over and visit with them on a daily basis, not really having anybody to go out and do fun things with in the world.
I don't have to imagine - that's been my entire adult life and it's normal for me. Circumstances were what they were and I effectively spent my 20s and 30s living alone. Now that I'm in my 40s it's too late and my SO doesn't want children anyway. Upside is the finances are far easier, downside is the prospect of spending twilight years alone. Thus it goes.

I don't recommend one choice or the other, simply that people carefully think about how the choice to have children or not will alter the trajectory of their lives.
 

Monocrom

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Children are a blessing. They are totally worth having in life, especially as one gets older...
A blessing to some. Namely those who don't get thrown into Rest Homes when they're elderly and completely forgotten about. But have those now adult children take care of them. As far as the children themselves, look around you. Take an honest look at this disgusting, diseased-mentality world the way it truly is. Actual nut-jobs are not only allowed to run free but prosper! They get elected to positions of power! Unless it was unplanned and an accident, why would anybody bring children into this morally bankrupt cesspool of a world that currently exists?

You can easily find someone who shares your values. Doesn't mean they won't cheat, or decide they can do better and leave you anyway. You get zero guarantees regarding how another human-being with their own working brain will behave in the future. You get to control you, not your spouse. They decide they can do better? They're gone! With Society encouraging their decision.

Yes, imagine not having other people you are financially responsible for. For just over 50% of men who got married, that is their fantasy. An unreachable one until they are too elderly to enjoy life. I go on vacations with my best friend. Sometimes with a Lady friend. We definitely have a good time. And, I have more money to spend on vacation. Plus, not stuck keeping a constant eye on children to make sure they don't wander off or get into trouble.

You can forget about Prenups. Those are constantly thrown out of court for the least little things. "Oh, you had a lawyer before you signed. But you provided one for your soon-to-be future wife before she signed. Well, that's a conflict of interest. She should have had her own lawyer. We'll just toss this out and pretend it never existed."

That's the reality. As far as bank accounts. Sure, you can set one up exclusively yours. One for her. Then one joint account for paying the bills. But.... Oh, turns out in your state, that's illegal. Once married, you both share all the accounts under her name and yours! Meaning, she can take every penny out of all three accounts she wants to at any time, without even telling you about. And, it's all perfectly legal.

As far as alimony, much of the time; the courts don't care. Wife needs to make a major amount of more money compared to you before they'll stop with this nonsense of giving half your stuff to her. And paying her monthly for the privilege of leaving you! 'Bout the only thing we agree on is child support. But instead of calling men deadbeats, it's funny how women get to opt-out of motherhood if they wish. But men don't have the very same right to opt-out of fatherhood if they wish. Funny how that double standard works, and everyone just accepts it. (I know this paragraph will be horribly misinterpreted but no one else is pointing it out.)

I don't have an issue putting in a Herculean amount of effort to make a relationship work, on a daily basis. Thing is, Society does not encourage women to do the same. Quite frankly, encourages them to do the opposite! Oh, things got a bit difficult this month? LEAVE HIM! You as a guy could literally do everything right, and she still could walk away. Or, take the kids and walk away. And, you get the privilege of paying thousands upon thousands of dollars a month for her to do so. Which ironically is MORE likely to occur if she stays at home and does nothing, while you work full-time with every hour of overtime you can get. That's the rub. In this Day & Age, if you're a man; women see you as an ATM or (if your big enough and handsome enough) as a pleasure toy. Only time you get shown respect is when there's a war on, and you go off to fight! Oh, then things are different. Only then. Funny how every single Feminist group remains completely silent when Front-Line Combat roles are assigned only to men. Not one complaint about "equality" from them on those occasions.

EDIT: Clarification.
 
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Poppy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
8,142
Location
Northern New Jersey
Wow!
Can you be more negative?

I'm sorry for you that life sucks so badly.

I met a man who was always happy and smiling. I asked him, "How is it that you are always so happy and smiling?" He replied. "When I get up in the morning, I say, today, I am going to be Happy!"

Another wise man said, "What ever you dwell on grows."

I suggest that you stop dwelling on the negative. Bring that to your U-tube channel.
 

jtr1962

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
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Location
Flushing, NY
Yes, imagine not having other people you are financially responsible for. For just over 50% of men who got married, that is their fantasy. An unreachable one until they are too elderly to enjoy life.
And that in a nutshell is one reason (among many others) I never even wanted kids. Even best case if the marriage works, you raise the kids to adulthood, you're working your behind off to support them. Seriously, putting in 40 or 50 hours a week used to leave the tank empty. I certainly had nothing left after work. Even weekends were mostly spent recovering from the work week. What good is a family you're too tired to enjoy? As I said earlier, maybe if I married into wealth, neither of us needed to work, I might not have been completely averse to having children. Even then, for many of the same reasons you mention with the state of the world, I still might not be sold. But at least if I had them, I'd have the time and energy to actually enjoy them.

I don't have an issue putting in a Herculean amount of effort to make a relationship work, on a daily basis. Thing is, Society does not encourage women to do the same. Quite frankly, encourages them to do the opposite! Oh, things got a bit difficult this month? LEAVE HIM! You as a guy could literally do everything right, and she still could walk away.
I noticed that even in HS. Some girls would have great boyfriends I just couldn't find fault with, then one day they just decide to break up. The weird thing in many cases the guy they broke up for was often less in every category-looks, brains, personality. I guess guys do that also, but it seems to be more prevalent among females. I guess many like a "project guy", instead of someone who doesn't need fixing up. Of course, as they get older, many are happy to marry the latter, but then treat him pretty much like an ATM.

Only time you get shown respect is when there's a war on, and you go off to fight! Oh, then things are different. Only then. Funny how every single Feminist group remains completely silent when Front-Line Combat roles are assigned only to men. Not one complaint about "equality" from them on those occasions.
While on that subject I recall never registering for the Selective Service in college. My reason wasn't that I wouldn't have fought for my country if it came to that, but rather that women weren't required to register also. They enjoy the same freedoms men do. If it comes down to that, they should be drafted to fight also. And yes put on the front line if that's appropriate for them.
 
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