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Lights and Guns

Newly Enlightened
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185
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New York
Opinion...

Problem is, facts don't support your opinion. Crime is trending downward, health outcomes are improving, etc.

And immigration would stop tomorrow if people would stop hiring immigrants (legal or otherwise). The simple _fact_ is, we don't have enough people for all the work. And some of the work, the hard backbreaking type, nobody but immigrants will even give it a second glance.

Facts.
Fact:
We need to start holding people who try to gain access into another country illegally, accountable... The same way many big cities are failing to hold perpetrators of crimes accountable nowadays. It's a revolving door. The police arrest an individual, then the courts release the individual to go commit more crimes either that same day or the very next day. There is no accountability today, there are only excuses made for their actions. The rest of the law abiding citizens have to suffer for it. More criminals out loose to commit more crimes.

Look around, how many stores in your neighborhood are closing their doors because of the rampant thefts, that go unpunished. Sure the police go and arrest them, but for what?... the criminals get out before the police finish their paperwork. The system is a joke right now.
Or maybe your the type that is wealthy, so you get to live in a nice quiet affluent neighborhood, and don't have any real idea of what is going on in the real world.

Yeah, I think that's a fact.
 

Lights and Guns

Newly Enlightened
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Messages
185
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New York
In part some are coming here illegally to earn money, but some are fleeing bad circumstances at home, and most unfortunately, many are drawn here due to the social welfare support even if they don't work. Putting them up in nice hotels, etc., and giving all sorts of "humanitarian provisions" at taxpayer's expense is also a reality.
Look at NYC for exmaple.
The mayor just announced a few weeks ago that he's slashing their Police/Fire/and sanitations budgets by 15% to reallocate that money to housing and feeding those illegal immigrants. (aka, criminals)

It's a joke... To house and feed criminals, lets allow our tax paying citizens to suffer longer response times from law enforcement, fire department, and have a dirtier living environment, thanks to less overtime ect. that the extra 15% in the budget would have allotted for.

It's quite odd whats going on in the world today.
Not sure how everybody is okay going to work, only to lose 30-40% of their pay to taxes, for it to be so mismanaged, just like this country has been the past 3 years.

Close the border up once and for all... for good. -- Put more enforcement agents there.. and upon catching anybody...immediate lengthy prison sentence or just deport right away. -- really as simple as that.

Tough on immigration approach is what you need to stop it.
Tough on crime approach in what you need, along with lengthy prison sentences for criminals.
Gets them out of our society, and allows law abiding good people to carry on about their day without any fear like there is a lot of today thanks to so many failed "progressive" policies.
 

turbodog

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central time
...

Yeah, I think that's a fact.

That's the problem... just because someone thinks something is a fact does not make it so.

Fact: The US has the highest per capita prison population on the planet. There's a real monetary cost for this, in housing the inmate, the opportunity cost of them not participating in society, and the lifelong 'former inmate' record they will carry.

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What do you _not_ see on this list? Any modern society...

When your nearest neighbors are not entities you would consider your peer group... then statistically that's interesting and noteworthy. Clearly, we are doing something very wrong as a first world country and leader of the world if we also lead in incarceration rates.
 

turbodog

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...

Close the border up once and for all... for good. -- Put more enforcement agents there.. ...


Tough on crime approach in what you need, along with lengthy prison sentences for criminals.
Gets them out of our society, and allows law abiding good people to carry on about their day without any fear like there is a lot of today thanks to so many failed "progressive" policies.

Sorry, once again, facts don't support your ideas.

The US's border is ~7,500 miles long. You're going to 1) build a wall on shifting sands and/or 2) station agents close enough to manually shut that down? Not physically or economically possible.

Note: this also ignores the coastline, which is roughly another 13,000 miles long.

We've got prison sentences... how do you thing we have the leading per capita incarceration rate?

You want to take a bite out of crime? For real? With real methods which have a LONG track record of actually working?

1. Fund k-12 education properly, which means, more or less, not tying it to local property taxes.
2. Tie minimum wage to inflation
3. Enact single payer healthcare (this is coming regardless eventually)
 

jtr1962

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Nov 22, 2003
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Flushing, NY
Look around, how many stores in your neighborhood are closing their doors because of the rampant thefts, that go unpunished. Sure the police go and arrest them, but for what?... the criminals get out before the police finish their paperwork. The system is a joke right now.
The problem is that incarceration in NYC costs something like $100K annually. Don't get me wrong, I'm against just processing these people, then releasing them without doing anything. Maybe do house arrest with an ankle bracelet so they can't shoplift again. Prison should be for violent criminals only who pose a danger to society if they're out.

Part of the answer is finding where the stolen goods are brought to and fenced. If you shut that down, you just took all the profit out of the operation. Do it repeatedly until these shoplifting rings have no way to fence their stolen goods.

Keep in mind the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, higher even than totalitarian regimes like Russia and China. That's saying a lot. It's not like we're not putting people in prison. We are. The problem is all the prison system currently does is turn them into better criminals, not reform them into productive members of society. Yes, there's an opportunity cost for someone losing their ability to participate in society due to a felony record. I'm not a bleeding heart but we can do far better in the area of criminal justice by focusing more on rehabilitation and less on punishment. Or better yet keep them from becoming criminals in the first place with proper education at least through high school, along with college or trade school after that.
 

Monocrom

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One big issue is that in America, it is now severely frowned upon to make fun of or treat any group in a condescending/ disrespectful manner.... Except Ex-cons. That mentality needs to change. Not saying open up the flood gates. But far less would fall back into their own illegal habits if they had better opportunities. Someone convicted of a non-violent felony decades ago should not be getting turned down for work basely solely on that. But, it happens. Broke, no money, about to be evicted onto the streets; prison starts looking like an option if they get caught again.
 

jtr1962

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One big issue is that in America, it is now severely frowned upon to make fun of or treat any group in a condescending/ disrespectful manner.... Except Ex-cons. That mentality needs to change. Not saying open up the flood gates. But far less would fall back into their own illegal habits if they had better opportunities. Someone convicted of a non-violent felony decades ago should not be getting turned down for work basely solely on that. But, it happens. Broke, no money, about to be evicted onto the streets; prison starts looking like an option if they get caught again.
Yep. Many people just want to throw the book at criminals. Put them in jail for the max. If they can't get a job when they get out because of a criminal record, tough luck-they're reaping what they sowed, even if it was for something like possessing a few grams of crack 30 years ago.

You don't have to be a genius or a bleeding heart to realize it's in our self-interests to make sure people don't return to jail because they have no options but a life of crime. Jail is expensive. Crime is expensive. It makes businesses and people leave. When people are incarcerated, they should be educated if needed, given vocational training if needed, helped with substance abuse or mental health issues if needed. Then before they're released we should set up housing and some sort of employment for them. Often the housing is simply going back to live with relatives. The job should be something requisite to their skill and intelligence level, otherwise they're more likely to quit and return to a life of crime. Instead, the focus now is just on making them suffer in prison because that's what many voters want-petty revenge.

And really, we should be better educating children so a life of crime doesn't seem attractive in the first place.
 

turbodog

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.... When people are incarcerated, they should be educated if needed, given vocational training if needed, helped with substance abuse or mental health issues if needed. ...

And really, we should be better educating children so a life of crime doesn't seem attractive in the first place.

Other countries have done just this... and have FAR better outcomes with 1) initial offending 2) recidivism 3) etc than we do.

But short-sighted/ill-informed people keep on beating the drum for long sentences, intolerable conditions, no education, etc.

Prison is basically a make-work program for people in the prison industry.
 

turbodog

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You know, when the personal attacks begin, you're admitting you lost the argument.

I stand behind facts, science, and the reasoning skills that come with thinking and maturity.

Anytime you want an objective debate, using valid sources, reason, logic, and peer reviewed procedures, you know where to find me.
 

LuxLuthor

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Messages
10,654
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MS
Look at NYC for exmaple.
The mayor just announced a few weeks ago that he's slashing their Police/Fire/and sanitations budgets by 15% to reallocate that money to housing and feeding those illegal immigrants. (aka, criminals)

It's a joke... To house and feed criminals, lets allow our tax paying citizens to suffer longer response times from law enforcement, fire department, and have a dirtier living environment, thanks to less overtime ect. that the extra 15% in the budget would have allotted for.

It's quite odd whats going on in the world today.
Not sure how everybody is okay going to work, only to lose 30-40% of their pay to taxes, for it to be so mismanaged, just like this country has been the past 3 years.

Close the border up once and for all... for good. -- Put more enforcement agents there.. and upon catching anybody...immediate lengthy prison sentence or just deport right away. -- really as simple as that.

Tough on immigration approach is what you need to stop it.
Tough on crime approach in what you need, along with lengthy prison sentences for criminals.
Gets them out of our society, and allows law abiding good people to carry on about their day without any fear like there is a lot of today thanks to so many failed "progressive" policies.

The rest of the country is very happy that all these faux noble sanctuary states and cities are finally getting hammered for their ideologies. Nothing will change until the current administration is replaced.
 

kaichu dento

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The rest of the country is very happy that all these faux noble sanctuary states and cities are finally getting hammered for their ideologies.
Ideologies that would never take place if the people enacting them had to do it out of their own pockets. The only way they dare to go where no man has gone before is with the unlimited bank account of the peoples of whom they are supposedly in office to serve.
Take money from those who work and give it away to those who make them look generous and kind.
 

LuxLuthor

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Ideologies that would never take place if the people enacting them had to do it out of their own pockets. The only way they dare to go where no man has gone before is with the unlimited bank account of the peoples of whom they are supposedly in office to serve.
Take money from those who work and give it away to those who make them look generous and kind.

I agree, but it is a rampant ideology that drives and motivates them. "Sure, we will take all the illegal immigrants, come on in!" It's a faux do-gooder mentality. I also believe the current political party believes all these illegals will eventually join their party and keep all of them in power at any cost. There is a seeming intentional destruction of the foundations that made this country once so great.
 

kaichu dento

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I also believe the current political party believes all these illegals will eventually join their party and keep all of them in power at any cost.
It's actually worse than that; much, much worse. Cloward & Piven at work, and since 2008 lots of presence in the White House of their strategy being brought to bear against us.
 

LuxLuthor

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jtr1962

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It's actually worse than that; much, much worse. Cloward & Piven at work, and since 2008 lots of presence in the White House of their strategy being brought to bear against us.
Yeah, it is much worse. I was just trying not to get too depressed thinking about it.

For Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward–Piven_strategy
Don't attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity. The original point of so-called sanctuary cities was to give safe haven to victims of political oppression. Unfortunately, victims of economic, not political, oppression started coming in droves recently in numbers far larger than these cities ever thought they would need to handle. A few thousand a year is easy to deal with. Six or seven figures overwhelms the ability of even the largest cities to cope. It never the intent of sanctuary cities to provide for victims of economic oppression.

Then there's the outright stupidity of some of those on the far left who advocate for completely open borders. I've read this would result in 300 to 500 million people entering the US in the span of perhaps a decade. From a practical standpoint alone open borders is untenable.

None of this is to say that the US economy, for better or worse, needs immigrants to do jobs Americans won't. That speaks to the need to let people in who have the skills matching what's needed. And to vet out the criminals at the same time.

Whether you're left or right, the current situation is a sh*t show. It obviously can't go on but neither the left nor right are currently offering any realistic solutions.
 
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