I lived my entire life without debt

jtr1962

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It's seldom the easy explanation though and to excuse Cloward & Piven's strategy off as stupidity is to keep the public from fully understanding how this 'stupidity' is becoming reality.
Keep in mind though the original goal of their strategy was a guaranteed basic income (termed universal basic income, or UBI, nowadays), something I personally support, especially as automation makes employment scarcer or more sporadic. The unintended effect instead was bloating welfare roles. Also, in the 1970s the system was designed to keep people on welfare, mostly to benefit the college-educated white people working in the welfare system, not to help them be more self-sufficient. The nice thing about UBI is first off everyone gets it. That would include you and I. Second, there's no bureaucracy involved beyond whatever is needed to send out the money. Nowadays that function can be mostly automated. Notice how easily those pandemic payments went out. If UBI were implemented, you can get rid of traditional welfare programs, unemployment insurance, food stamps, probably a lot more. The bureaucracy for these programs would be gone also.

I personally loathe any government program which functions primarily as a jobs mill, with whatever mission it supposedly has taking second fiddle. To some extent national defense falls into that category. In my city the MTA definitely qualifies. Lots of people there are doing obsolete jobs and/or overstaffing. They're basically a jobs program which provides transit service, or at least claims to.

It's unfortunate some on the left are still using Cloward & Piven's strategy for things it wasn't intended for.
 

LuxLuthor

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The original point of so-called sanctuary cities was to give safe haven to victims of political oppression.

There should NEVER have been sanctuary cities. Period. That is the bankrupt moral philosophy to take care of the poor and downtrodden by giving them such handouts like welfare, easy qualified disabilities, free phones, cash for clunkers, forgiving student debt, etc. etc. It rarely, if ever works to give handouts to people who then become dependent on the government--which is exactly what the liberal left wants--socialism in disguise.

If there are politically oppressed people, there should have been an orderly processing of claims within limits. It's not the USA's responsibility to take care of all the world's downtrodden and poor.

All of the liberal sanctuary cities and states deserve to be overwhelmed---even more than they already are.
 

jtr1962

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There should NEVER have been sanctuary cities. Period. That is the bankrupt moral philosophy to take care of the poor and downtrodden by giving them such handouts like welfare, easy qualified disabilities, free phones, cash for clunkers, forgiving student debt, etc. etc. It rarely, if ever works to give handouts to people who then become dependent on the government--which is exactly what the liberal left wants--socialism in disguise.
There's a difference between a hand out versus a temporary hand up. As I mentioned earlier (maybe in another thread-I lost track with all these threads going in every direction) unfortunately by design many of these programs were made hard to get off just to keep those employed by them in make-work jobs. Case in point was the so-called "occupational therapy" the institutionalized relative I mentioned in another thread received. I think he said they were stuffing plastic forks, spoons, knives and napkins into plastic bags. Even back then (1970s) that kind stuff was done by machines. There were training people for a job which didn't even exist, instead of giving real occupational training. He even told the trainer the whole thing was BS just to keep her in a job.

I don't know why you included student debt in your list. For starters it would have been a one-shot deal, not a continual handout. For another, the proposed amount (no more than $20K) certainly wasn't going to make anyone dependent on government. It would have been a shot in the arm for people who were struggling. Also, much of the forgiven debt was never going to repaid anyway. People just didn't have it. On top of this, the "problem" of excess debt was largely created by government in the first place by privatizing student loan collection to for-profit companies. Of course these companies did what any company does, seek to maximize profit, often by violating guidelines. That included not informing people of programs like income-based repayment, adding illegal collection fees amounting to multiples of the original principal, getting people into "rehabilitation" loans where the entire outstanding debt (principal, interest, collection fees) was capitalized and subject to interest, plus another 25% added. Point of fact many of the so-called deadbeats already paid enough towards their loans such that they would have been repaid had the payments been applied the same as with any other type of debt.

I could talk for hours about the merits and failures of socialism versus capitalism but that's material best saved for the Underground. Only thing I will say is the primary reason socialism failed is because up to now humans were the primary means of production. People obviously will resent it if they work harder than others but get the same, so socialism devolves to everyone doing the bare minimum. It usually also requires an element of force to get people to do even this bare minimum (hence the association of socialism with communism/authoritarianism). Socialism could work well if machines did most or all of the production, letting people "work" if/when they want at things they enjoy. That's all I'll say on the subject here.
 

LuxLuthor

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There's a difference between a hand out versus a temporary hand up.
I'll just say that I profoundly and vehemently believe that socialism is a social disease that destroys everything it touches.

I added student debt because it's typical of the left's mentality to give money and benefits away solely for the purpose of currying votes. All the people like me who paid their student debts should then get a full refund with interest. They never do hand ups. They only know hand outs.

All I have to say and again hoping 10x more illegals flood into liberal sanctuary states and cities.
 

jtr1962

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All the people like me who paid their student debts should then get a full refund with interest.
I actually suggested that to some of the people who opposed the idea. Since the amount being forgiven was either $10K or $20K, depending upon whether or not you also received a Pell grant, refund everyone who already paid off their loans what they would have had forgiven, with interest.
 
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All I have to say and again hoping 10x more illegals flood into liberal sanctuary states and cities.

They probably will continue their illegal invasion.

However, sooner rather than later, they will realize what they've landed in and then move to much better cities and states like Texas and Florida for 1st world opportunities like jobs, lower crime rates, and a lower cost of living. That's when the Electorial Colledge will have its intended effect.
 

idleprocess

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However, sooner rather than later, they will realize what they've landed in and then move to much better cities and states like Texas and Florida for 1st world opportunities like jobs, lower crime rates, and a lower cost of living. That's when the Electorial Colledge will have its intended effect.
I mean. Texas has been dealing with the "flood" of immigration for many many decades now. Even when it's not in the news. It's just a fact of life.
 

Falcon9h

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The problem is that incarceration in NYC costs something like $100K annually. Don't get me wrong, I'm against just processing these people, then releasing them without doing anything. Maybe do house arrest with an ankle bracelet so they can't shoplift again. Prison should be for violent criminals only who pose a danger to society if they're out.

Part of the answer is finding where the stolen goods are brought to and fenced. If you shut that down, you just took all the profit out of the operation. Do it repeatedly until these shoplifting rings have no way to fence their stolen goods.

Keep in mind the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, higher even than totalitarian regimes like Russia and China. That's saying a lot. It's not like we're not putting people in prison. We are. The problem is all the prison system currently does is turn them into better criminals, not reform them into productive members of society. Yes, there's an opportunity cost for someone losing their ability to participate in society due to a felony record. I'm not a bleeding heart but we can do far better in the area of criminal justice by focusing more on rehabilitation and less on punishment. Or better yet keep them from becoming criminals in the first place with proper education at least through high school, along with college or trade school after that.
That would mean getting rid of the entire left wing apparatus-never happen. The corruption and invalidated election system runs too deep. Colleges are marxist indoctrination centers.
They mean to have their communist police state, and they're going to get it. Glad I'm old.
 

bykfixer

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I don't want a d@m thing from the government except adequate roadways, a good national defense and a safe place to raise a family. Too many strings attached to all of those programs to "help me" and what was once a safety net is now a hammock for far too many ungrateful people including all of those people crossing the border since sleepy man took over.
 

jtr1962

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I don't want a d@m thing from the government except adequate roadways, a good national defense and a safe place to raise a family. Too many strings attached to all of those programs to "help me" and what was once a safety net is now a hammock for far too many ungrateful people including all of those people crossing the border since sleepy man took over.
That's why I think we should replace all those safety net programs with UBI. Everyone gets it, working or not, so it creates no disincentive to work. You'll always be better off working in fact than not. There's no strings attached. There's no need for a huge bureaucracy of government workers in make-work jobs administering it.

Beyond that, I want government to help create whatever infrastructure is needed to enable society to function. It's not just roads. It's railways, airports, the grid, education, medical care. Some regulation is also needed to better enable the little guy to compete with large corporations, along with worker protections to keep people from being exploited. However, I expect government to do all these things as cost-effectively as possible. What we pay for infrastructure projects in this country is an embarrassment. Ditto for national defense and medical care.
 

turbodog

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I don't want a d@m thing from the government except adequate roadways, a good national defense and a safe place to raise a family. Too many strings attached to all of those programs to "help me" and what was once a safety net is now a hammock for far too many ungrateful people including all of those people crossing the border since sleepy man took over.

What about water system inspection/certification so you're not poisoned by lead & other heavy metal or made sick by microbial contamination? (USDA handles this)

What about meat inspection/certification so shady slaughterhouses aren't selling meat that was from tumor-laden animals? (USDA again)

What about banking certification and insurance in case a banker takes the money and runs off to South America? (FDIC)

What about regulation, monitoring, etc of electromagnetic spectrum so your radio, tv, wifi, cellular works? (FCC)

The whole 'all I need is my gun, wife, flour, and lard to thrive' is a load of BS.

Good national defense includes educating citizens. Plenty of ways to take down a nation w/o firing a shot or stepping foot on foreign soil.
 
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What about water system inspection/certification so you're not poisoned by lead & other heavy metal or made sick by microbial contamination? (USDA handles this)

What about meat inspection/certification so shady slaughterhouses aren't selling meat that was from tumor-laden animals? (USDA again)

What about banking certification and insurance in case a banker takes the money and runs off to South America? (FDIC)

What about regulation, monitoring, etc of electromagnetic spectrum so your radio, tv, wifi, cellular works? (FCC)

The whole 'all I need is my gun, wife, flour, and lard to thrive' is a load of BS.

Good national defense includes educating citizens. Plenty of ways to take down a nation w/o firing a shot or stepping foot on foreign soil.

So, what didn't you understand about - and a safe place to raise a family.? 🧐
 

jtr1962

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So, what didn't you understand about - and a safe place to raise a family.? 🧐
We also need a society that takes into account other paths and lifestyles. Single people with no children have been getting the short end of the stick since, like, forever. They pay more in taxes but get less in benefits. Their needs are often completely ignored by government and business. Companies especially will think if you're single with no kids, you never need time off, and they can work you 60 or 70 hours a week. With this demographic making up an ever larger share of the population it's time to take their needs into account.
 

LuxLuthor

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We also need a society that takes into account other paths and lifestyles. Single people with no children have been getting the short end of the stick since, like, forever. They pay more in taxes but get less in benefits. Their needs are often completely ignored by government and business.

No, we do not need a society that takes into account other paths and lifestyles, including single people getting the short end of your stick. It's up to them to fix their own situation, not depending on the government mother tit.
Companies especially will think if you're single with no kids, you never need time off, and they can work you 60 or 70 hours a week. With this demographic making up an ever larger share of the population it's time to take their needs into account.

IMHO, it's not government's job to fix all of societies failures or issues, in large part because they never do a good job. They reflect lobby donors when laws are written.

Obamacare was a classic example of starting with an interesting idea, but then having the bullshit worst ever law written by lobbyists from insurance companies, medical institutions, device manufacturers--but not a single practicing physician was allowed to give input. Result: Another worthless government poop show. That's how it always goes, so inserting their ignorant noses into student loans who were responsible for the money they gladly took to get their worthless liberal arts degrees is their own problem. No one should get a rebate or loan forgiven.

I can support FEMA for emergency unforeseen mother nature scenarios.

I don't have a problem with the current minimum wage, as it motivates people to work hard to get ahead...which is sorely missing today.
 
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I don't have a problem with the current minimum wage, as it motivates people to work hard to get ahead...which is sorely missing today.

How do local and/or state government officials go about determining a minimum wage? Do they seek the advice of small business owners who are required to write and cover the minimum wage paychecks? Or, are the government officials former small business owners who have personal experience operating a successful business?
 

LuxLuthor

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How do local and/or state government officials go about determining a minimum wage? Do they seek the advice of small business owners who are required to write and cover the minimum wage paychecks? Or, are the government officials former small business owners who have personal experience operating a successful business?
I'm only talking about the $7.25/hour minimum wage, but as you can see mostly liberal states choose to go much higher--that's their problem, and why businesses and people are leaving them.

https://www.hrministrysolutions.com...F3YS7CpsJW-wPpl4nsC1-9VPHPbK2z7caAv5REALw_wcB
 
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jtr1962

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No, we do not need a society that takes into account other paths and lifestyles, including single people getting the short end of your stick. It's up to them to fix their own situation, not depending on the government mother tit.
I'm talking about stuff like tax laws, and the fact people with kids get a lot of breaks from government single people don't. It's about treating everyone equally. You make x dollars, you pay y dollars in taxes regardless of whether you have kids, own a home, rent, etc. No more mortgage interest deduction, dependent exemptions, child tax credits, or itemized deductions. If a person with a family can't afford to pay taxes once they lose all that stuff, the solution is to just make the standard deduction higher. Not just for them, but for every taxpayer.
IMHO, it's not government's job to fix all of societies failures or issues, in large part because they never do a good job. They reflect lobby donors when laws are written.
Well, if you don't give enough resources to accomplish whatever the mission is, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? Why do some governments manage to do a good job of this stuff in other countries? Your argument is flawed.
Obamacare was a classic example of starting with an interesting idea, but then having the bullshit worst ever law written by lobbyists from insurance companies, medical institutions, device manufacturers--but not a single practicing physician was allowed to give input. Result: Another worthless government poop show.
Sure it was, because we just had to let the insurance companies continue getting their cut, instead of doing single payer like every other civilized country.
That's how it always goes, so inserting their ignorant noses into student loans who were responsible for the money they gladly took to get their worthless liberal arts degrees is their own problem. No one should get a rebate or loan forgiven.
Same root cause of the problem as Obamacare-getting private industry involved in something it shouldn't have been. Student loans never should have existed in the first place. Either grants or nothing. Or if there must be loans, to the parents only. And the loans should have been administered and collected by the government, not by private entities who add their cut of profits. Loan forgiveness is really just the government fixing the mess they created in the first place.
I can support FEMA for emergency unforeseen mother nature scenarios.
With the caveat that building codes require structures to withstand the types of events an area sees on a semi-regular basis. If builders are allowed to build on the cheap in a place prone to hurricanes, then no, FEMA shouldn't cover that. Same thing for people who choose to set up homes in areas prone to forest fires, or along shorelines which regularly see storm surges.
I don't have a problem with the current minimum wage, as it motivates people to work hard to get ahead...which is sorely missing today.
Sounds good until you realize you don't get ahead working hard for other people. 95% of the time the bosses just take advantage of you by piling on more work with no raise. Also, a big part of a wage is paying people for their time, regardless of what they're doing. The current minimum wage is a joke. When I last worked for someone else in 1990 even the $11/hour I was making was a sick joke, never mind the $7/hour I started with. 33 years later, $7.25/hour is a waste of time.

You want people to work harder, it's really simple. Tell them if you do x, y, and z for me, I'll do a, b, and c for you, preferably in writing. I won't bust my behind for anyone for vague promises. The younger generation is a lot smarter than mine was. I know lots of people who did everything they were told but got nowhere. Still living paycheck to paycheck 35 years later.
How do local and/or state government officials go about determining a minimum wage? Do they seek the advice of small business owners who are required to write and cover the minimum wage paychecks? Or, are the government officials former small business owners who have personal experience operating a successful business?
Business owners would want $1 an hour if you asked them. Minimum wage is generally considered a subsistence wage where you make enough to barely get by. That's how it's determined. $7.25 doesn't cut in any state. If a business owner can't afford to pay their workers decently, then their business isn't viable. Let them do the work themselves, or automate it. We don't owe these business owners anything. If the numbers don't work, let them get a job working for someone else at the wages they think they should be paying their workers.
 

bigburly912

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Or ya know. Get kids back to work so they can learn some basic job skills. I started when I was 15. I worked at a local grocery and I cleared brush. When I was 16 I started working as a physical therapy technician on weekends while still working at the local grocery. I quit the local grocery and started working evenings at McDonald's while still working my weekends at the hospital and clearing brush and doing weightlifting and football and track. If I managed it so can kids today.
 
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