Incandescent Spot Light vs. LED Flashlight

[clspruiell]

I have a question. I have had several pretty powerful LED lights (Fenix TK45 and a few others). I bought a big incandescent rechargeable spotlight today. It's got like 2.5m candlepower or something like that.. Anyway, here is my question. Up close, this is not that bright. When I shine it on my feet its not any brighter than my Streamlight. But it throws for miles! Of course its a bit more concentrated of a beam, but still. I would have expected this light to be blinding at close range.

So is this a property of incandescent vs. LED? My LEDs shine super bright on close ups. I know the spot has a much larger and deeper cone, but shouldn't it still be SUPER bright up close?

Does this even make sense? Thanks for all the info..

 

[Mr. Tone]

If your new 2.5 mil light is similar to mine it is only around 40,000-60,000 true candlepower. My Cyclops 2.5 mil is about the same throw as my Thrunite Catapult V3 neutral white. LED has better potential for throw because the surface brightness is higher. For example, the reflector on my Thrunite Catapult is much smaller than the incandescent Cyclops I have but has similar candlepower.

The ratings on the incandescent spotlights are outrageous. They are advertised many times higher than they really are. I had a big Peak 10 million candlepower spotlight that had a huge 8-9" reflector and it threw the same as my Titanium Innovations N30 HID. That light has been measured to be 225,000-250,000 candlepower. So that means that Peak rated this light at around 40x the true candlepower measurement. The worst of all is the Cyclops Thor which advertises that as 18,000,000 candlepower!

List some of your LED lights for us. You may not even have any real throwers in your collection yet.

 

[Juggernaut]

It's all about surface brightness and reflector size, Incans have more surface brightness and with a bigger reflector it will always throw farther, if you gave a better reflector on the LED it would throw just as far.

 

[Soda]

My 10 lumen dorcy mag-clone throws more than my fenix pd30 in complete darkness.

 

[yellow]

in the application mentioned You are more to notice the spill part of the beam and the color/tint of the light.
Here the white light fools the eye in comparison to the halogen.

then there is that the halogen bulb "possibly" is able give the power listed, but the battery source can not - at least not after a few mins of use

 

[Mr. Tone]

It's all about surface brightness and reflector size, Incans have more surface brightness and with a bigger reflector it will always throw farther, if you gave a better reflector on the LED it would throw just as far.

I am pretty sure that I remember both Ra and saabluster saying that LED's have surpassed incans as far as surface brightness goes and that was comparing LED to overdriven incan filament. I don't remember what the thread title was, though. I can not remember where LED vs. HID is on surface brightness but LED vs. short-arc is not even close. Short-arcs are waaaay brighter than LED at least currently.

To the OP, there is/was a thread started by saabluster that went into great detail and explanation about throw(distant illumination). It makes sense of a lot of confusing things.

 

[Juggernaut]

I am pretty sure that I remember both Ra and saabluster saying that LED's have surpassed incans as far as surface brightness goes and that was comparing LED to overdriven incan filament. I don't remember what the thread title was, though. I can not remember where LED vs. HID is on surface brightness but LED vs. short-arc is not even close. Short-arcs are waaaay brighter than LED at least currently.

To the OP, there is/was a thread started by saabluster that went into great detail and explanation about throw(distant illumination). It makes sense of a lot of confusing things.

I have been away from the forums for a while so I have missed much as far as the progress of LED advancements but when I was still very active here I experimented much with super long throwing Incans from my own research I found it impossible for any LED to match the surface brightness of an Incan, the problem is filament design and reflector design is much more important. Bare Tungsten when brought to it's absolute highest Temperature before losing it's structural stability is nearly as bright as a short arc, however there is no such thing as a micro sphere of tungsten in any bulb to make a flashlight with. Thus all surface brightness is limited to the gaps and proper alignment of the coiled filament in Incans. The best I could ever build was a know as the L.Y.L.L. it was the best reflector I had available to me and out of over 15 "of the best" bulbs I could find and through many levels of over drive, one bulb produced a 0.98 degree beam it only made about 50 lumens but it could throw over 500 yards. At a PF event I used it alongside a DEFT, it blow the DEFT away, though you must understand that it is entirely unpractical, if not useless, the beam was WAY to narrow it just lighted a pin point at that range so in the real world the DEFT or any reasonably good throwing light would be actually better at long range illumination. A long time ago I posted a horrid:sick2: photo of the super high surface brightness bulb but it was impossible to see it, here is a new MUCH better shot showing the 1.5x 0.125mm filament😱!

 

[fivemega]

Even if claimed brightness is honest rating, it is based on bulb manufacturer's specification.
Most of spot lights are using automotive bulbs which are designed to work at 13.8 volts which is voltage of system when engine is running.
All car incand bulbs are designed to work long time (300 hours) so they are yellow (2700~3000 K) and not shining like high power incand flashlight.
Not to mantion that your spotlight battery is much smaller than any car battery and voltage will drop quickely after short time.
If you can convert your battery to 4 serial IMR 26650, then you will see the difference. In this case, you will need new Li-Ion balance charger.

 

[Mr. Tone]

I have been away from the forums for a while so I have missed much as far as the progress of LED advancements but when I was still very active here I experimented much with super long throwing Incans from my own research I found it impossible for any LED to match the surface brightness of an Incan, the problem is filament design and reflector design is much more important. Bare Tungsten when brought to it's absolute highest Temperature before losing it's structural stability is nearly as bright as a short arc, however there is no such thing as a micro sphere of tungsten in any bulb to make a flashlight with. Thus all surface brightness is limited to the gaps and proper alignment of the coiled filament in Incans. The best I could ever build was a know as the L.Y.L.L. it was the best reflector I had available to me and out of over 15 "of the best" bulbs I could find and through many levels of over drive, one bulb produced a 0.98 degree beam it only made about 50 lumens but it could throw over 500 yards. At a PF event I used it alongside a DEFT, it blow the DEFT away, though you must understand that it is entirely unpractical, if not useless, the beam was WAY to narrow it just lighted a pin point at that range so in the real world the DEFT or any reasonably good throwing light would be actually better at long range illumination. A long time ago I posted a horrid:sick2: photo of the super high surface brightness bulb but it was impossible to see it, here is a new MUCH better shot showing the 1.5x 0.125mm filament😱!

That is one tiny filament! Your 50 lumen spotlight sounds cool. Did you ever get a lux measurement at any distance?

 

[Juggernaut]

That is one tiny filament! Your 50 lumen spotlight sounds cool. Did you ever get a lux measurement at any distance?

In stead of talking about the L.Y.L.L. (Here) I finally stated a thread on Here:thumbsup:

 

[Mr. Tone]

In stead of talking about the L.Y.L.L. (Here) I finally stated a thread on Here:thumbsup:

Sweet, thanks!

 

[jh333233]

And no one remember incan beam is less refracted(apparently) than LED beam

 

[peterharvey73]

Mechanical Power (Watts) = Force (Newtons) x Speed (m/s)
Mechanical Power (Watts) = Torque (Nm)/time (s)
Electrical Power (Watts) = Voltage (V) x Current (amps)
Likewise, the Power of Light (Lumens) = Brightness (lux) x Lateral Surface Area of Illumination (square meters).
Thus doubling the surface area of illumination, will actually double the lumen count.
The brightness in lux determines the longitudinal throw.
Remember that we need to increase the lux four times, in order to just double the throw!
Similarly, with hi-fi systems, we need to increase the power eight times, in order to double the decibel volume.

Those old incandescent filaments are tiny in size and surface area, so their surface brightness is naturally high.
Thus, they throw a long way.
Although the brightness in lux is great [for great throw], the surface area of illumination is poor!
The incan's hot spot size is tiny.
Their lateral spill is also very dim.

It's a similar with the old XR-E R2 emitters.
They have the highest surface brightness of the LED's, however the hot spot size is tiny and therefore less practical.
Their lateral spill is also very dim.

A modern day XM-L emitter has a little less surface brightness, but it has a huge surface area of illumination.
Since lumens = lux multiplied by surface area, the slightly reduced lux multiplied by a huge increase in surface area of illumination, still equals a huge lumen count.
Thus, XM-L's have a huge lumen output.
The incans have super brightness in lux, but a tiny surface area of illumination, and therefore only a small lumen output.

Thus, lights aren't just about the brightness in lux or candelas; nor longitudinal throw either.
They are also about the lateral width - the lateral surface area of illumination too.
Unlike a laser, light needs width to be practical.
Double the lateral surface area of illumination, and you double the total lumen count...


In both incan and led's, a reflector and lens acts like a motor car's gearbox, or an electrical transformer; it increases one factor, at the expense of decreasing another factor.
Just as the gearbox increases the torque, at the expense of decreasing the rpm speed.
An electrical transformer will increase the voltage, at the expense of reducing the current.
Likewise, the reflector/lens further increases the brightness in lux, at the expense of decreasing the surface area of illumination.

A gearbox cannot increase the total mechanical power; the total power output stays the same.
An electrical transformer cannot increase the total electrical power in Watts; the total electrical power stays the same.
Likewise, a reflector and lens cannot increase the total lumen count; the total lumen count stays the same.

The reflector/lens can be a conventional reflector only, it can be a hybrid of both - like Surefire's Total Internal Reflection TIR optics, or it can be an aspherical lens only with no reflector at all; in all cases, their principles are similar to a motor car's gearbox, while the incan or led is similar to a motor car's actual engine...