Is this normal with the M30W?

[ecallahan]

I have my M30W in a solarforce 18650 tube, surefire 6P bezel, Z 59 tail switch, AW 18650 battery. When I push the switch in, the light comes on, when I release the switch it gets brighter. It doesn't get dramatically brighter, but it is noticeable. Does it with both AW batteries.

This doesn't happen with my M60W. Same switch, same setup except the stock 6P tube, when I push it in and release the switch I get the same brightness.

I contacted Gene, and he is willing to exchange it if I'm uncomfortable, but I'd like to know if this is a common occurence first, before I put him through any extra effort. I wouldn't think it's the switch, since it doesn't happen with the M60W. I know they have different drivers.

Thanks!

 

[bullfrog]

My M30W and M60W does that as well on AWs - not sure about my other malkoffs...

 

[Owen]

I wouldn't think it's the switch, since it doesn't happen with the M60W. I know they have different drivers.

Which is exactly why I would normally say it's the switch(makes perfect sense for a voltage boosting M30 to show a tailcap resistance issue that a current regulated M60 doesn't), but you haven't isolated the questionable parts.
How can you have the "same setup" with the 18650 in a stock 6P body?
What you really need to do is try the M30 in the stock body with a 17670 or R123 or 17500 and spacer-whatever you can make work.
Right now my prime suspect would be the Solarforce body, but since you haven't done any troubleshooting, it could be about anything.
You can have issues like this from the body/tailcap contact, the switch internals, battery length, the Malkoff dropin/Solarforce body contact due to the difference in shape of the front of the battery compartment, or a loose fit from using a SF bezel on an aftermarket body.

Take the bezel off, wrap the M30 with a couple of strips of aluminum foil, press it tightly into the Solarforce body, and try the switch.
We fixed a M60WF/6PD problem the other night with two strips of aluminum foil. Adding a lanyard ring at the bezel was enough to cause intermittent operation by giving the dropin even a tiny amount of room for play.

 

[baterija]

Edit: answer the phone in the middle of posting and suddenly there are better answers before me

I don't know if it's "normal" since I don't have one to compare. It doesn't seem unreasonable though.

If the M30 isn't in full regulation, and I seem to remember reading something about that, then varying resistance in the switch could explain it. Differing electrical contact areas between the switch fully pressed in and released could explain a varying resistance. The M60 on the other hand is bucking from quite a bit over the LED Vf so I wouldn't expect the small voltage drop caused by varying switch resistance to make any difference in the regulated drive current.

 

[ecallahan]

Which is exactly why I would normally say it's the switch(makes perfect sense for a voltage boosting M30 to show a tailcap resistance issue that a current regulated M60 doesn't), but you haven't isolated the questionable parts.
How can you have the "same setup" with the 18650 in a stock 6P body?
What you really need to do is try the M30 in the stock body with a 17670 or R123 or 17500 and spacer-whatever you can make work.
Right now my prime suspect would be the Solarforce body, but since you haven't done any troubleshooting, it could be about anything.
You can have issues like this from the body/tailcap contact, the switch internals, battery length, the Malkoff dropin/Solarforce body contact due to the difference in shape of the front of the battery compartment, or a loose fit from using a SF bezel on an aftermarket body.

Take the bezel off, wrap the M30 with a couple of strips of aluminum foil, press it tightly into the Solarforce body, and try the switch.
We fixed a M60WF/6PD problem the other night with two strips of aluminum foil. Adding a lanyard ring at the bezel was enough to cause intermittent operation by giving the dropin even a tiny amount of room for play.

I troubleshooted as much as I knew how to, which is why I'm asking for advice.

The M30W is wrapped with foil, and is sitting snugly in the solarforce body. Everything is clean. I tried the solarforce reverse-clicky on the setup, and it worked just fine, of course it doesn't make contact to my knowledge until it is released. I may have the spacers I need to try it in the 6P body with one AW rcr123. I'm going to give that a try.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Not noticing this with my M30. Using TB 18650 body, E2C, and Surefire E series clicky (E2D). Used lightmeter to check lux.

Bill

 

[MrGman]

its the switch in the tail cap and nothing else. The momentary position isn't making optimum contact for lowest possible resistance. If there is something you can take apart and clean in the switch manually I would do it otherwise I would not use the switch. The only thing you could clean on the bottom is the edge of the metal host's tube. There is nothing wrong with the Malkoff, in fact, it is showing you just how poor that switch contact is.

Use the Solarforce reverse clickie if you can't make it better. G

 

[Owen]

its the switch in the tail cap and nothing else. The momentary position isn't making optimum contact for lowest possible resistance.

Doesn't make it the tailcap. Someone on here recently couldn't get a Solarforce extender to work on a SF G2, because the extender apparently grounded through the threads instead of butting up against the end of the battery tube like a SF A19. Could be something similar happening here.


So, it's not on the bezel end, since the drop-in is foiled up, and making contact.
Need to eliminate that body/tailcap fit as an issue to narrow it down to the tailcap.
The SF clickie needs to make contact flat across the end of the battery tube.
That's something to check out.
What...an appropriately sized washer inside the SF tail, or a small ring of rolled up aluminum foil that mashes between the tail and tailcap when they're screwed together?
Just like with the foil in the bezel end ensuring contact there, it would be a good idea to check the tailcap in a similar way.

 

[MrGman]

Solarforce extenders on G2 bodies has absolutely nothing relevant to do with this issue of tail cap contact with Aluminum hosts with or without aluminum extensions. The extensions shouldn't be used as they are not 100 % compatible with the plastic G2 bodies.

Its the tailcap. Whether or not its defective is not 100% of the issue. Its not 100% compatible with all of the solarforce host parts. Thats the issue. If cleaning up the end of the tube and the tail cap contacts doesn't make it any better, it may be that the tailcap is simply not 100% compatible with the 18650 style host (most likely) or it may be defective tailcap (less likely). Either way I would go with the original Solarforce reverse clickie.

Its not the Solarforce host tube or bezel.

If you want it to work best, use Solarforce parts with Solarforce, of which you have already proven work as they are supposed to.

 

[ecallahan]

I think I am comparing apples to oranges now, with the M30W vs M60W, but if I put the M60 in the setup I'm using for the M30, and just run it off the single 18650, and surefire switch, it doesn't happen. So I am in effect using the same setup, but different LED modules, which may make that experiment useless. It does work just right with the solarforce reverse clicky, so I'll use that. I have another Z59 on the way, and I'll give it a try when it arrives. I appreciate all this advice, and it points out to me how little I understand about these lights.

 

[MrGman]

I think I am comparing apples to oranges now, with the M30W vs M60W, but if I put the M60 in the setup I'm using for the M30, and just run it off the single 18650, and surefire switch, it doesn't happen. So I am in effect using the same setup, but different LED modules, which may make that experiment useless. It does work just right with the solarforce reverse clicky, so I'll use that. I have another Z59 on the way, and I'll give it a try when it arrives. I appreciate all this advice, and it points out to me how little I understand about these lights.

Its not the same. The M60 is a buck regulator and the M30 is not.

The Solarforce host uses the entire thread area for electrical contact to the Solarforce switches. The SureFire switches only use the edge of the tube exposed metal for contact as the rest of the area including the threads are hard anodized. Hard anodized surfaces don't make electrical contact. The SF switches are meant to be compatible with Surefire hosts which have anodized threads so they are not going to take advantage of the thread area for maximum electrical contact. Its that simple.

The Z59 clickie is not giving you maximum current flow through the less then optimal surface contact during momentary press, that is all there is to it. The fact that the tube opening is just a little bit wider for the 18650 battery type instead of only 17mm wide for the standard CR123 batteries that are around 16mm wide, means even less contact area on a thinner edge.

Solarforce makes forward clickies, although I found that the reverse clickie simply works better is more reliable to not turn the light on accidentally when I don't want it on. End of story. There is probably nothing actually wrong with the Z59 clicky, it was not meant to be used with that tube and Surefire doesn't care to make their equipment compatible with 3rd party stuff. If you want the most out of the M30 light module use the reverse clickie from Solarforce. It does not have anodized threads. That is all there is to it. G

 

[NoFair]

I've had the same behavior with dirty momentary clickies and single li-ions.

No issue like this with my M30W in the C2 with either the stock switch or a momentary clickie from my U2.

 

[Owen]

I think I am comparing apples to oranges now, with the M30W vs M60W, but if I put the M60 in the setup I'm using for the M30, and just run it off the single 18650, and surefire switch, it doesn't happen. So I am in effect using the same setup, but different LED modules, which may make that experiment useless. It does work just right with the solarforce reverse clicky, so I'll use that.

Nothing is useless. You've got more information, now.
That tells you that you've got contact between the Z59 and the Solarforce body, even if it doesn't tell you how good that contact is.
Another thing is to run the M30 in another host to make sure something isn't wrong with it.

I don't know what the difference is between these bodies, but here's what has to hit the bare end of the tube in the Z59:

If the tailcap doesn't screw quite all the way down on the body, those little tabs might not have optimal contact. It's always better to use compatible parts, but most of the time you can make things work if you identify the causes of the problems. For some of us, it's part of the fun(not me, but I'm happy when stuff works like I want it to).
Sometimes a simple washer, or some aluminum foil can make all the difference.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Nothing is useless. You've got more information, now.
That tells you that you've got contact between the Z59 and the Solarforce body, even if it doesn't tell you how good that contact is.
Another thing is to run the M30 in another host to make sure something isn't wrong with it.

I don't know what the difference is between these bodies, but here's what has to hit the bare end of the tube in the Z59:

If the tailcap doesn't screw quite all the way down on the body, those little tabs might not have optimal contact. It's always better to use compatible parts, but most of the time you can make things work if you identify the causes of the problems. For some of us, it's part of the fun(not me, but I'm happy when stuff works like I want it to).
Sometimes a simple washer, or some aluminum foil can make all the difference.

What are you using on top of the battery tube, laying on top of it? A brass ring or washer of some type. I know what the purpose is, and it certainly would work good with the newer U2 tailcaps where sometimes the tailcap may not screw all the way down to make contact with the battery tube lip, particularly with older U2 bodies.

Bill

 

[Owen]

Same as pictured inside the tailcap. Just took pics in both places to show how it fit.
It's a brass washer(they refer to it as a friction ring) from a "Plumb Pak Cone Washer Assortment" package. ID of ~.69", and an OD of .810".
Except for a slightly smaller ID, it's almost a perfect match for the tailcap end on Classic series SFs.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Thanks Owen. I am always looking for different ways to improve conduction on SF lights, when needed, and your part is a better fit than some of the stuff I come up with.


Bill

 

[mdocod]

All I needed to read was "Z59" in the OP to have the answer to this one. My Z59 does the same thing, and it is well known for having this sort of strange behavior on LED modules. Often mine will do the reverse though, and be bright on the depress, and go dimmer as the switch is released in the on position. Sometimes there is no difference in output through the switching, it just seems to vary. It can be annoying at times.

 

[Owen]

Bill, I know it's tacky putting aluminum foil in a SF, but it does give a little more leeway with contact distance. I doublechecked both of those before suggesting them and posting pics, and with the foil I could back the tailcap off a bit and it would still work vs. effectively "locking out" like the stock switch and with the washer.

All I needed to read was "Z59" in the OP to have the answer to this one. My Z59 does the same thing, and it is well known for having this sort of strange behavior on LED modules.

Is yours the new or old style Z59? On SF bodies? Just curious. I've had horrible luck with flashlight stuff for years, but my SF gear always works perfectly(edit: ALMOST-had a Z41 with a cross-threaded jam nut of all things. Who has problems with a Z41?). I've had several Z58s and Z59s, old and new type, on lights running everything from LEDs drawing a couple hundred mA, to incans pulling 5A, and never had a problem with any of them.
That's why I stick with SF hosts and parts, mostly, or Leef. Except for Lumens Factory LAs and Malkoffs, seems like every time I stray, I get into problems of one kind or another. That's why I've still got washers and spacer material, and all kinds of other crap sitting around...always troubleshooting and "fixing" something.

I hope my Longbow and Zebralight still work after saying that😱

 

[mdocod]

Hi Owen,

My Z59 is the newer style as far as I can tell, like the one in your photos there. Plastic with the 3 copper "strips" extending out from the center behind the spring.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Hi Owen,

My Z59 is the newer style as far as I can tell, like the one in your photos there. Plastic with the 3 copper "strips" extending out from the center behind the spring.

Looks like the model called an M4 by a SF rep, that they sent me, actually sent two because I could not make the first one work with my U2. I thought the second one would work, and sold it with my extra U2, and I ended up sending the original older model U2 tailcap to the buyer, who could not make the new one work.

Bill