Led Lensers

[McAllan]

Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver

i have personally measured 138°F on the T7

Can't speak of that. Only the M14 😉
Unfortunately the plastics is secured with some torx screws and I don't have a torx that small so we can't take a look at what's under there yet.

138 F sounds a little on the high side. With a junction to solder side thermal path of 8 C/W according to data sheet that translates to a junction temperature of ~180 F. But as said earlier the 3 w heat dissipation is on the high side. Could be interesting to know it more exact for and XR-E run at 1 A (or perhaps I've just not read enough in the data sheet). And then there's also the issue of we don't know how much hotter the over side of the LED is compared to the under side. One thing for sure is that if temperature is different then it's hotter in a non ventilated area as there's not a heat sink at that side.
So yes it sound a bit on the high side. But still well within allowable limits according to data sheet as I see it.

 

[DM51]

Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver

Too much bickering here... keep it civil please...

 

[Egsise]

In addition to the various modes that will be described later still, the M7 has two modes cross-energy programs, from Zweibrüder as "Energy Saving Mode" and "constant current mode" means. In the latter, the lamp starts with maximum brightness, which remains constant for a few minutes and falls in the next few minutes to 60 percent of the maximum brightness. These 60 percent remain set until the batteries are empty. In this program, the brightness is regulated only through the built-in temperature-control unit. In the energy saving program to start the lamp behaves exactly as though the brightness is turned down to 50 percent here and 25 minutes to 15 percent.

McAllan, could you do a runtime graph with luxmeter, so that we would know is the M14 circuit similar as in M7?

 

[McAllan]

McAllan, could you do a runtime graph with luxmeter, so that we would know is the M14 circuit similar as in M7?

Sorry I don't have the facilities to do an extended test and dedicated run time graph.
But I have played a little with my luxmeter while running it for the 15 and 30 minutes. And it does indeed seem to be the same behavior as the M7. That is for the first 5 minutes or so the light is a little brighter and then gradually fades a little where it stabilizes - the "constant current" mode. A quick on/off and it's back up to "normal". Even did that about halfway for the warm up for the temperature measurement.

Yes it's beyond me too to have a "constant current" mode that fades a little after some minutes of powered on. But the positive side is that unless you have a luxmeter you won't notice it. IMHO it had been better just to start at the "little lower stabilized" level. Then the "130% turbo touch" would also make more sense.

I don't say it's perfect. But none the less it's still a great improvement in the right direction over a simple resistor 😉

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver

not getting hot is an excellent sign that there is a poor thermal path between the emitter and exterior.

looks like all my Quark turbos have a poor thermal path then.

Then again if anything gets only so hot that it still doesn't affect the operation of the torch then I guess it must be just fine so LL probably does the whole design thing better since none of mine have ever been detrimentally affected by heat.

 

[Egsise]

I don't say it's perfect. But none the less it's still a great improvement in the right direction over a simple resistor 😉

Circuit that mimics a direct driven light...

Thanks for your tests!

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

From my perspective as an Aussie bushie, it's an added level of complexity to provide a feature I just don't need.

Personally, I think the best "improvement" to the line that LL could have made would have been to change the instruction manual (and maybe anything else really truly necessary) to "permit" the use of NiMH and leave it at that.

The old P7 performs superbly on NiMH with a flat enough brightness curve to satisfy most non tech-head users like me who judge a torch by the light out the end rather than graphs.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

From my perspective as an Aussie bushie, it's an added level of complexity to provide a feature I just don't need.

Personally, I think the best "improvement" to the line that LL could have made would have been to change the instruction manual (and maybe anything else really truly necessary) to "permit" the use of NiMH and leave it at that.

The old P7 performs superbly on NiMH with a flat enough brightness curve to satisfy most non tech-head users like me who judge a torch by the light out the end rather than graphs.

+1. A lot of us CPF'ers tend to get caught up in the technical aspects of lights, and how this feature is better than the other, but when it comes right down to it, it is the user who needs to be satisfied with his or her light for the applications they need it for. One of our early modders/sellers, Wayne of Electrolumens, has always believed that the direct driven light is the most practical light for people who need and use light on a daily basis, and who are not interested in "features".

Bill

 

[don.gwapo]

+1. A lot of us CPF'ers tend to get caught up in the technical aspects of lights, and how this feature is better than the other, but when it comes right down to it, it is the user who needs to be satisfied with his or her light for the applications they need it for. One of our early modders/sellers, Wayne of Electrolumens, has always believed that the direct driven light is the most practical light for people who need and use light on a daily basis, and who are not interested in "features".

Bill

I agree with you on that. I think LL lights is for the "massess". All their lights are powered by ordinary, easy to find, get it anywhere batteries. And most of their light is just high and low and some with turbo with no strobe or sos whatsoever. Well, except for the M1, M14. LL is just keeping their lights as simple as possible for ordinary people. Not to mention they have a good optics.

 

[Turbo DV8]

There are two things that limit the head movement forward on the first gen p7's (I don't know if it's the same for the next ones). First thing is the little block that's screwed to the heatsink. It's this block that stops the head spinning.

Both my new P7 and P14, and several others I have tried, all allowed their heads to spin. There were minor differences in where the head stopped, affecting the throw a small bit.

 

[Turbo DV8]

Re: Led Lensers - Picture of M14 driver

The heat flux of their pedestal design is approximately 50% worse than a conventional heatsink design. alternatively, a conventional design is 100% more effective.

The speed rating of a 100 MPH tire is 50% worse than the speed rating of a 200 MPH tire, but on a car that tops out at 90 MPH, what's the difference?

 

[McAllan]

Circuit that mimics a direct driven light...

Thanks for your tests!

No it's not 😉
Only to a very small degree. As said haven't done an extended run time test. But the little lower level is in the constant current mode supposed to stay there until batteries are depleted - just look at the fine mini review of the M7. Only then it'll fade out for good.

A full driven LED need as said 3.7 V according to data sheet. Then we need to take a minimum drop in the driver into account. Minimum voltage drop in the driver is probably in the order of 100-300 mV - an AMC7135 is 100 mV is I remember correct and it's a FET transistor with a circuit. Believe a FET driver here too - a bipolar would have a too big drop. That means it'll start to fade out for good when there's around 3.8-4.0 V available. Divided by four (as there's 4 cells) it translates to 0.95-1 v pr. cell. That's means in case of NiMH it'll start to fade after the constant constant current when cells are for all purposes empty. Like 98-99% or so if you calculate with an end voltage of 0.9 V.

The economy mode however mimics a direct drive if we are to believe the website. But a direct drive that get reset with a very fast on/off. Wonder who wants to use that mode :thinking: None the less who do not want "fresh batteries" in an instant just buy do a quick off/on?

 

[Egsise]

To me the runtime of M7 looks very similar what runtime P7 with NiMH has.
It drops 25-35% in the first few minutes but stays quite flat until the cells are empty.
So the improvements are just the flashing modes.

 

[McAllan]

looks like all my Quark turbos have a poor thermal path then.

Then again if anything gets only so hot that it still doesn't affect the operation of the torch then I guess it must be just fine so LL probably does the whole design thing better since none of mine have ever been detrimentally affected by heat.

How big are they? Especially the AA has more surface area.
There's two very big considerations here and their ability to dissipate heat. Size and color. Black color radiates heat a lot faster than silver. Can't seem to find a good description online which I know some of you will demand. But take two identical objects except the color one white and one black. Heat them to same temperature in an oven. You'll notice the black one heats up faster. Wait for the white one to heat up too. Now take them out. Surprisingly you'll notice the black cools faster down too (yes we've even done that experiment when I was a school boy and seen it in a science quiz on TV - should be proof enough).

A light as the TK40 doesn't get objectionable hot either - when run on NiMH to eliminate most heat from the cells themselves. But it too got a very large surface for dissipation and radiation.
And the pattern is the same for LD20. It too has no trouble staying reasonable cool because of surface and probably also surface color. Where as my 1 cell stainless lights get on the edge of insanely hot if standing by themselves. A smaller silver colored surface just is inferior radiating heat compared to a larger black one.

The speed rating of a 100 MPH tire is 50% worse than the speed rating of a 200 MPH tire, but on a car that tops out at 90 MPH, what's the difference?

Exactly my point. Good analogy 🙂

 

[McAllan]

To me the runtime of M7 looks very similar what runtime P7 with NiMH has.
It drops 25-35% in the first few minutes but stays quite flat until the cells are empty.
So the improvements are just the flashing modes.

But the P7 is not as flat as the M7 which you can see by his lux reading stabilizes dead flat. But you're right in reality it's not a big difference except for one thing - the P7 doesn't ramp up again if turned off then on halfway in a run time test.
And I'll bet the M7/M14 has way better regulation on alkaline compared to their older siblings P7/P14.

 

[JaguarDave-in-Oz]

How big are they? Especially the AA has more surface area.

Yes, they both have plenty of surface area. My 2x123 turbo doesn't get hot and it's smaller than a P7 so I'm not at all surprised that my P7 doesn't get over hot given its even larger size and lower lumens count. To do as good a job as the usual torches the P7 simply doesn't have to push out huge lumens and the heat it does put out is obviously adequately dissipated or the torches would exhibit problems which they simply don't.

I'm quite satisfied that the designers have done all that's necessary to adequately handle the amount heat their led arrangement puts out. As expressed, there'd be no point having a two hundred mile an hour tyre on your one hundred mile an hour torch..........

 

[Egsise]

But the P7 is not as flat as the M7 which you can see by his lux reading stabilizes dead flat. But you're right in reality it's not a big difference except for one thing - the P7 doesn't ramp up again if turned off then on halfway in a run time test.
And I'll bet the M7/M14 has way better regulation on alkaline compared to their older siblings P7/P14.

In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.

Hey, what happened to warranty?
http://www.lovingoutdoors.co.uk/out...-lenser-m7-micro-processor-led-torch-650.html

12 Months Manufacturers Warranty

 

[McAllan]

In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.

Of course. 30% you won't notice.
My point is that the initial drop at 5-7 min is programmed and after that in constant current mode it stays stable and flat until batteries are empty. After that it'll fade out like a direct drive. Of course with NiMH you should turn it off at that point in order not to push the weakest cell into reverse but with alkaline you'll have some light for quite some time.

Hey, what happened to warranty?
http://www.lovingoutdoors.co.uk/out...-lenser-m7-micro-processor-led-torch-650.html

Guess I've already invalidated mine 😀 No big deal. Never seems to have use for it anyway.
Now you don't tell where you live but in EU you have 6 months of warranty then 18 months of reclamation right by law. That is 0-6 month you have it repaired/switched without question. 6-24 month and you have to "prove" that you've not caused it to malfunction and that the error is not ordinary wear (like a bulb burnout etc.) - in practice not very hard to prove. The deal is between you and the retailer you've bought it from - no matter what warranty the factory decides to offer too. If he offers none then the warranty is on the dealer alone - which of course means that if he finds an item to malfunction too much and he can't get the cost covered by the factory then he stop selling that item.
So actually the 12 months factory warranty is better than required by law. Don't know if it has been better in the past if that's what you mean.

 

[JCD]

In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.

Hey, what happened to warranty?
http://www.lovingoutdoors.co.uk/out...-lenser-m7-micro-processor-led-torch-650.html

12 Months Manufacturers Warranty

From Coast's Web site:

Lifetime Guarantee

COAST guarantees its COAST knives, tools and COAST LED Lenser Lights to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the original purchaser. …​

It appears that the retailer to which you linked made an error. It happens.

 

[jupello]

In reality you don't turn your light off and on every 5 minutes to get 30% more output.
You can bet too that when regulation is flatter, the runtime will be shorter.

I bet that turning the light off and then right back on again would not work.
To me the higher output at the start of the graph looks like little added output that you might get with fresh/rested batteries while the battery voltage is high.
For example I don't think people that use Nitecore D10 with 14500's try to switch the light on/off in hopes for max output again after the light has faded a bit 😛

Seems that the discussion about Led Lenser's never change in here, always the same topics come up again and again.. even Marduke seems to have gotten tired of it 😉