LED vs HID

Axkiker

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Hey all im in the process of building some underwater lights. I have been experimenting with LED technology and have found that its going to be hard to generate the light output that I need even when using multiple led's

So while reading another thread I saw that flashlights now have HID bulbs in them

I wasnt really aware that the technology was out that allowed HID to be used in a hand held unit. I just assumed that the temperatures produced would have made them too hot to hold... Can someone fill me in on some of the new HID technologies. I would love to know some options, what kind of output they provide, amp draw, and temps produced.

I saw something about a single bulb producing 2000+ lumens. Thats more than one of my LED units with 6 led bulbs!!!!!

thanks
 

yellow

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check in "Spotlights" underforum, thats where the HID guys are.

PS: in 10 W class, HID was crap even from the beginning.
In higher power it will be difficult atm.
With dive lights no problem, with either brutal power led, or HID, because cooling is no problem.

HID will be "better" because You can build it with much less spill and higher "throw" - in water that should be positive not to blind Yourself.
 

HKJ

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For a high power led, check the SST-90, it can put out over 2000 lumen or CBM-360 for 4500 lumen.
For HID you need 12 volt, a ballast, a bulb and a reflector. The ballast and bulb can be bought as a automobile headlamp kit.
 

Axkiker

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Wow LED's sure have come a long way in just a years time. I guess I started on this project roughly 1.5 years ago and got tied up with work so I stopped roughly a year ago. Now im back at and see that they are producing leds that put out well over 2k lumens. WOW

I do like the idea of a single LED that has that much output. However after I purchase the led's and drivers ill have a substantional about more tied up into them than if I were to purchase a 35w HID kit.

The LED does offer a great size advantage however I just cant justify it when comparing the costs.
 

DM51

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I'm going to move your thread to our Dive Lighting section, as I think it will fit best there. Other dive light builders and modders will see it, and they may have some useful advice for you. You'll find other interesting builds there as well.
 

Klem

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Axkiker,

Welcome to our thread (thanks DM51).

Yes, consensus is that HID; 35W and above is still the brightest option available for hand-held underwater torches. Below 35W and LED technology is comparable. Given LED technology is elegant, modular and constantly innovating much of the Dive Lighting section discussion is devoted to it.
 

Packhorse

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Up to 20 watt LED wins hands down. up to 35 watt its a cl;ose call, 35 watt + HID is the way to go.

So the age old question once again arises. How much light do you need?

For a strictly primary dive light 1200- 1500 lumen works really well for me. ( video/camera needs much more).
This can easily be produced by LED or HID. But for me LED is so much easier to work with and upgrade when better LEDs are available.
 

SmokedCPU

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sometime people are talking about the need of remplace a bulb.
thats why some people are still building halogen ....

with HID drop once the lamp and you can kill the bulb
with led you can almost put a nail in a board and go diving.

im using packhorse desing of maglite with ssr90 and an aspheric, and people are amased by the performance.

Last dive, i was bettwen a salvo 21w and a greenforce 150 hid and i was not shy at all.

i think i'll build some light soon :whistle:
 

Klem

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I've been diving since 1982 and dropped my share of torches. I have never however damaged a HID bulb. Nor have I ever seen this happen in anyone else's torch.

Once, I broke a glass lens. Another time I cracked an internal reed switch. The rest of the damage has come from flooding...and I've flooded more torches than I care to remember!

In the difference between LED and HID it's not fragility you need to worry about...it's light output, bulk and cost. A 35W HID is necessarily a bulky torch and you need to consider whether you want, or need to lug this around.

BTW... I have both LED and HID torches. Our groups of divers carry exclusively LED in the daytime, mainly spearfishing and looping crayfish under ledges. But for night dives we carry 35W HIDs. I also wear a small LED on the facemask for instruments, and my day LED in a pocket as back-up.
 
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BOHUNTER

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Well this helps me make up my mind also.

I want to build me a 35W HID to try it out. After I will build this remaining 50W Halogen I currently have. If I can package a battery pack which will fit both I then I can save the cost of new set up with other batteries.

If anyone is willing to help me with a DIY or some schematics on HID Head It will be appreciated. So far I have 150 bucks in the set up, minus batteries. What would a simple HID Head and bulb run me... another hundred?? Just checking.

Steve
email
[email protected]
 

Klem

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If you want to retrofit that old halogen rig into a 35W HID then the cost of a single ballast and HID globe will set you back about $50 (EBay).

They are mainly sold in both kits as pairs but also individually. There is a wide range of prices however the cheapest work prefectly well.

You will need to consider where the HID ballast is going to go, and if you put two gelcel batteries in that canister like before you will have no space for the ballast, which means securing the ballast to the outside the rig...If you do this you will have to waterproof it and the cables between it and the cannister (not impossible, but requires effort). The upside is that the water cools the ballast and you get the full capacity potential from that battery canister.

A simpler solution is to put only one 12V battery in your canister and leave the other half free for the ballast. The downside here is the battery capacity will be halved (3.2Ah), which theoretically will give you slightly less than an hour run time with a 35W HID. Ballasts get hot with continuous use so be also aware it will dissipate heat within the canister. This may effect battery life and capacity but with a gelcel you may be OK.

Plus, you could upgrade the gelcels to a lighter higher power density chemistry like NiMH or Li-ion.

Then you need to pull that wand apart and figure out how to mount the HID globe into that reflector, so that the bright spot of the globe perfectly focusses the light into a spot.

Or, you could sell off that canister and build a 35W HID from scratch. With the money re-couped it would offset the cost of building from scratch.

Something like this one costs a little under $200 in parts, is a lot more compact and lighter, and with a 10Ah Li-ion battery gives 2 hours+ glow time. The 100mm diameter collimated reflector will outshine any LED dive torch discussed on this website and it is cable-free (no canister), so you can put it down or hand it to someone else. Essentially it is a portable vehicle spotlight, so if you want to know how bright it will be just find someone with a 35W HID 100mm reflector on their car and turn it on at night.

This one uses a $20 Otterbox 8000 enclosure, manufacturer rated to 100ft depth so if you plan to dive deeper then you need to choose parts that withstand more pressure.

Otterbox35WHID.jpg

I carry/protect it on the BC in a cordura pouch for entry exit phase.
HIDBCsettup.jpg
 

Axkiker

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Okay so I guess I should clarify what im building

these lights are for underwater use on the transom (Back) of boats...

There are several companies out there that already make these. Many of which are using both LED and HID technology. Since I have darn near a complete machine shop at my house I set out to make my own. At this point ive probably spent enough on research to have already bought 2 sets but hey its fun and I have learned a lot

So far I have been totally using Led's. Led technology has definitly come a long way in the past couple years but im now finding that HId may be a better option when price and light output is considered.

Some of the high output leds seem to put out a comparable amount of light. However once you add up the price of the diode, power supply, and circuitry that is needed to safeguard them against transient voltages etc in an automotive / marine enviroment LED seems to be much higher.

As far as light output all I can say is the more the better. If you are on the coast with crystal clear water a low end LED setup is fine.. However if you are on inland rivers you cant have too much light... So I have set out to build lights with as high of an output as possible within a given price range.

Any thoughts ???
 

Packhorse

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HID is fragile and my break with the constant jarring that going over waves produce.
LED is solid state so dies not suffer the same issues. Since you are working with a 12v supply simply wire 3LEDs in series and use resistors or amc chips to set current. Very simple and cheap!
 

Axkiker

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HID is fragile and my break with the constant jarring that going over waves produce.
LED is solid state so dies not suffer the same issues. Since you are working with a 12v supply simply wire 3LEDs in series and use resistors or amc chips to set current. Very simple and cheap!


Well from my understanding trying to run leds straight off an automotive system is asking for trouble... With the variations of the charging system and transient voltages I was always told they couldnt last...

It would make life easier if I were wrong however I was always told to use a driver...

ultimatly I need a setup that produces mega light... Im guessing upward of 2-3k lumens...

Using leds would make for a nicer package as I could build the housing much smaller but when considering a price point I am finding that the 35w HID setups seem to be the best.

So let me just ask you all.... If you were building a product which needed to produce 2-3k lumens what would you use???
 

Klem

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If you want the brightest most focussed light then my 'money' is on HID

In July of 2010, 35W and above in HID is brighter than LED. LED is catching up fast, but not there yet. LED is arguably more robust but I disagree your transom will be a place where you need to be overly concerned about breakage. Consider that 4 wheel drives hammer their HID's over rough terrain, with few problems to speak of.

Before the LED afficionados launch into their replies I will however put a caveat over that claim...It is not just power that makes a HID brighter, it is three other critical components; reflector quality, diameter, and focus.

To illustrate check out this quick-and-dirty comparison between two 35W HIDs. I've included the 'Ugly Light' not to disparage LEDs but as a benchmark given it is so popular and well known.

torchcomparisons.jpg


Lightcomparisons.jpg


The impact point is 50cm in front of the torches

So, to my mind throw and spill are critical to not only perceived brightness, but also utility, and that all boils down to the ability to harness and focuss the light.
 

Axkiker

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If you want the brightest most focussed light then my 'money' is on HID

In July of 2010, 35W and above in HID is brighter than LED. LED is catching up fast, but not there yet. LED is arguably more robust but I disagree your transom will be a place where you need to be overly concerned about breakage. Consider that 4 wheel drives hammer their HID's over rough terrain, with few problems to speak of.

Before the LED afficionados launch into their replies I will however put a caveat over that claim...It is not just power that makes a HID brighter, it is three other critical components; reflector quality, diameter, and focus.

To illustrate check out this quick-and-dirty comparison between two 35W HIDs. I've included the 'Ugly Light' not to disparage LEDs but as a benchmark given it is so popular and well known.

torchcomparisons.jpg


Lightcomparisons.jpg


The impact point is 50cm in front of the torches

So, to my mind throw and spill are critical to not only perceived brightness, but also utility, and that all boils down to the ability to harness and focuss the light.


all very good info...

That makes it very apparent that reflector quality and lense will play a big part in light output... However that makes my decisions that much harder. I have never messed with hid reflectors nor am I even sure what type / size / style reflectors that I need. My project involves lighting up as large of an area of water as possible. So im unsure if I need to direct the light outward or allow it to spread.

I agree that I dont see the issue with abuse being a factor. If these bulbs can last in an off road enviroment they will definitely last in a boat. unless your in a race boat that is constantly jumping out of the water the rear of a boat is very stable..

One drawback that I do see to hid which I dont with led is that I will need a fairly large hole drilled in the transom. This is not uncommon however its not ideal. With LED a housing can be made which just screws to the rear...

Any thoughts on HID reflectors andwhere to get them ??
 

Klem

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If you want to know what the throw and spread of a potential reflector looks like then you could source someone who has them on their car. Another opportunity is at a 4 wheel drive store that sells them. Where I live they often set them up inside the store so cutomers can compare.

The 100mm reflector in my last post above is from a Colt Narva 100 hand-held spotlight ($50 on Ebay). The most powerful beam I adapted to dive with is this one below; a Hella 6" vehicle spotlight.
Hella1unpainted.jpg


Same globe and 35W HID ballast as the Colt Narva 100mm however at 152mm diamater it was undeniably slightly brighter. I say "was" because I dropped it recently on the concrete and the lens cracked. Still worked but no longer waterproof. Needless to say I am still kicking myself!

The Hella 6" spotty is bulkier than the Narva 4". You also need more lead to offset buoyancy in the bigger reflector. So it becomes a bulkier torch and when weighing this up with the light output I decided to go back to the 100mm as a good compromise for compact diving.

In your case buoyancy is not an issue so I'd look for larger spotlights with the throw and spill for the area you want to light out the back of your boat.

An added bonus is that vehicle spotlights come water-resistant sealed from the factory. In a boating envirnment obviously you will need to look a little more closely at this. Both the spotlights in the photos have tempered glass lenses, which again is fine for above water use (won't melt or burn like in synthetic lenses which depending on heat emitted can require outside water to keep them cool).

Why do you say the hole needs to be bigger with HID? Unsure what you mean here.
 

oldskoolmc

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Okay so I guess I should clarify what im building

these lights are for underwater use on the transom (Back) of boats...

There are several companies out there that already make these. Many of which are using both LED and HID technology. Since I have darn near a complete machine shop at my house I set out to make my own. At this point ive probably spent enough on research to have already bought 2 sets but hey its fun and I have learned a lot

So far I have been totally using Led's. Led technology has definitly come a long way in the past couple years but im now finding that HId may be a better option when price and light output is considered.

Some of the high output leds seem to put out a comparable amount of light. However once you add up the price of the diode, power supply, and circuitry that is needed to safeguard them against transient voltages etc in an automotive / marine enviroment LED seems to be much higher.

As far as light output all I can say is the more the better. If you are on the coast with crystal clear water a low end LED setup is fine.. However if you are on inland rivers you cant have too much light... So I have set out to build lights with as high of an output as possible within a given price range.

Any thoughts ???


If you get this going... I'd buy a set from you. I've been looking at these but the price is over the top. What are you thinking of using for incasing the leds (bezel)? Stainless 316?

If you do anything like this I'd be interested.
AmpPro_TechInfo.jpg




Or these:
18WBIG.JPG
 

Klem

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Another thought...

If you want distance from a spotlight, typically up to 200Meters above water at night then fixing it to the transom pointing directly to the rear handicaps the full potential of it. If you clamped it on the transom and had it slightly above on a swivel you could point it where you wanted and the utility of the light escalates.

If lighting the immediate area behind the the rear of the transom is all you want then low profile LEDs like in the above post would be my choice.
 
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