LEDs are not replacing fluorescent until these conditions are met

jtr1962

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So your argument is that we need to rely on our legislators to act for the greater good and protect all us dumb citizens from themselves?
No, not themselves. More like protect them from the profiteers who will seek to sell them the worst possible crap at whatever the market will bear but will label it otherwise. I specifically gave an example of what is available, or rather not available, in lighting stores with the current lack of regulation in this area. In effect, I'm left with fewer choices, not more. I thought capitalism was supposed to be all about giving the average consumer choices? Sure doesn't seem that way. Basically whatever makes a few people in charge the most money is what gets sold. Everything else is either not produced at all, or produced in such low quantities as to be beyond the reach of most people. Whether through subsidies or regulation or both, sometimes governments need to step in for a while to give something new a fighting chance. If it still fails, then maybe it wasn't a good idea but at least we tried.

Daekar said:
I suppose that the very hobby that this forum exists to serve is filled with the crappiest, least-safe solutions to the problem of portable lighting? Obviously the enormous leaps in technology and overall increase in available product quality is due mostly to regulation and not due to motivation for profit by businesses. We should call our reps and thank them for planning the legislation which allowed Cree to create their LEDs, Surefire to make their lights, and PowerEX to make their batteries.
No, what is available here is as described above: "produced in such low quantities as to be beyond the reach of most people". Sure, the market will always be happy to produce very expensive luxury items for various niche markets. After all, these have very high profit margins. What won't get produced is a variety of low-cost, decent-quality products. I personally can't afford $150 for a whiz-bang Cree flashlight. For the $5 to $10 most of the general public is willing to pay for a flashlight all they'll get is a piece of junk which will fall apart the first time you turn it on. Now I don't expect regulations to force people to make cheap but good flashlights, but I do expect some oversight to see that products meet certain minimum standards of safety, efficiency, lifetime, and more importantly that they don't put false claims on the package. I don't care if someone wants to buy a piece of unsafe, unreliable junk for as little as possible. That's their perogative. However, they had better be informed of exactly what they're getting. And you think this is such a bad thing?

As for Cree's LEDs, I have a couple of Q5s which are performing closer to Q2s or Q3s. Now is this a case of a few bad ones slipping through the cracks, or blatant mislabeling to sell LEDs for a premium in a market that will pay quite a bit for a few extra lumens? I don't know, but I'm not happy about it either way. The P4s I bought last year all met specs. So far I have yet to test a Q5 that does.
 

made in china

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One reason I would NOT consider retrofitting my home to LED: The technology still has NOT matured yet. Improvements are made by leaps and bounds to LED technology yearly, so why would I want to invest in LED lighting anytime soon just to know that in a year it will be outdated. I would not doubt that in a few years we may see white LEDs that don't rely on phosphor on top of a blue emitter. Or that we'll have very high output LEDs that make MUCH less waste heat than now. Etc etc.
 

made in china

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Another point I wanted to add, on a very political/personal level: Eventually, a lot of Americans will lose their jobs as the demand for traditional lighting sources goes down. In our dept, we currently upgrade all of our traffic signals with LED modules. (more on that later). We very rarely relamp with incans anymore unless the fixture won't support a LED upgrade. So, in our dept, we've effectively slashed our needs for good ol' MADE IN USA lamps. All of our LED equipment is foreign sourced. American companies so far have not been able to compete in CFL production (all from China now) and I am SURE that the future LED home lighting will continue this trend. Which will see even more Americans laid off. Remember, aggressive plans have far reaching effects on more than what you can see. By mandating "high tech" energy efficient lighting, you basically hand out tens of thousands of pink slips to fellow Americans. Which of course starts a domino effect in our society. In the meantime, your "high tech" energy efficient lamps and CFL's are being produced in a developing country that has almost no environmental regulations (if they do, they are NOT enforced), no labor laws, etc etc. Now, what is the REAL cost of your "high tech" lamps?? Have you ever been to a manufacturing city (Development Zone per their term) in China? You would be horrified. A incandescent lamp is a very basic item. CFL's and LED's require alot of resources to manufacture, and they DO produce alot of industrial waste in the process. Part of the low cost factor of foriegn production is the simple fact that they abuse their employees and OUR environment.

And as for those LED modules we use, they are very large, don't last very long, are very expensive and definitely much more involved than a glass bulb and tungsten to manufacture. Sure, we save money on our electric bill. But think about all the IC's, transformers, capacitors, semiconductors, heavy metals, etc that are needing to be disposed of almost as frequently as a common 67w traffic lamp? (67 w is 6000 hr rated, alot of our LED modules go bad in less than 3 years. The white LEDs and signal green LEDs fail about every 1-2 years at best!)

Think about the big picture. Maybe what Americans really should learn to do is consume less? We've grown accustomed to oversized cars, supersized fast food and several thousand lumens at the flick of a switch. Then when resources become expensive, we try to find the most "fuel efficient" "semi-hybrid almost 20 mpg" SUV's and we replace our 2 100watt incans with 2 23w CFLs because we don't want to sacrifice what we are used to. Maybe more people should consider buying an appropriately sized vehicle, and maybe they should cut the amount of lumens they feel comfortable with by at least half? Whether they accomplish that with one 60w bulb or a 13w CFL, in place of the two 100w bulbs, whatever.
 

jtr1962

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Sure, we save money on our electric bill. But think about all the IC's, transformers, capacitors, semiconductors, heavy metals, etc that are needing to be disposed of almost as frequently as a common 67w traffic lamp? (67 w is 6000 hr rated, alot of our LED modules go bad in less than 3 years. The white LEDs and signal green LEDs fail about every 1-2 years at best!)
This is probably caused by going with the lowest bidder on this stuff (not necessarily the fault of your department). I'm shocked that these things fail as often as you say because one reason traffic lights went to LED was specifically to increase replacement time. The energy savings was an added feature. Anyway, has anyone knowledgeable looked at the failed modules instead of just disposing of them? I'd bet that on the majority all or most of the LEDs were fine, and it was likely another electronic component which failed. If the LEDs are indeed burning out, then I'd blame poor circuit design, but maybe some minor modifications could fix that. LEDs in a properly designed circuit should never burn out. They should just gradually dim, eventually reaching a point where they are too dim for their function, necessitating replacement. Anyway, I'd say that the majority of your failed LED modules can be repaired and put back in service for less than the cost of buying new ones.

On the jobs thing, fact is very few things are made here for many reasons. Lower wages are only part of it. Try to find Americans willing to do factory work at any wage where they might be reasonably competitive. In fact, try to find Americans willing to do factory work at all. Most Americans these days want clean, non-physical jobs, or rather are conditioned to believe manual labor is beneath them. The automotive sector is about the last place with large number of manufacturing jobs. Even here, the wages and benefits to get people to do this type of work is so high that it will eventually put American auto makers out of business.

Another big factor is location. Where do you put the new factories? The city dwellers certainly won't want them. Given the price of urban real estate it wouldn't make sense anyway. So you put your factory in someplace fairly remote with cheap land and no neighbors to bother. Now how do your workers get to work? You probably couldn't pay your workers enough so they could afford a car. Nor would they want to commute 50 miles each way from the nearest town for a low-paying job even if the commute was free. You obviously won't have public transit there, and again the commute time wouldn't make sense.

Soon the chickens will come home to roost. China can't continue to pollute its environment forever. Eventually their medical bills will soar and they'll have to take action. This will drive up the cost of manufacturing there, perhaps even to the point where Americans might be competitive again. Or perhaps we'll eventually have androids doing pretty much all manufacturing by then. I wouldn't worry. There's going to be lots of new jobs created here in the US as a result of this new lighting technology. We're going to need new fixtures designed, people to install them, others to repair them. This will probably create more jobs than are lost from discontinuing manufacture of incandescent lamps. I'll also add that we have to do this regardless. If we don't, we'll need new power plants. Where do we put them? We'll probably have rolling blackouts. There will probably be lots of other unforeseen consequences continuing on the path we're on, most more dire than the loss of a few jobs.

Maybe more people should consider buying an appropriately sized vehicle, and maybe they should cut the amount of lumens they feel comfortable with by at least half? Whether they accomplish that with one 60w bulb or a 13w CFL, in place of the two 100w bulbs, whatever.
Cut lumens? Sacrilege! :D Seriously, if we did more solar and wind we could probably increase our lumens if we want, especially when LEDs are putting out 150 lm/W. I do agree on the vehicles though. I wish we would set up our society so we can walk and bike more, and also use public transit more. Basically less spread out living, and less travel overall. The changeover to this type of living would create massive numbers of jobs. The land used to service automobiles is probably the biggest squandering of our finite resources.
 

2xTrinity

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Maybe more people should consider buying an appropriately sized vehicle, and maybe they should cut the amount of lumens they feel comfortable with by at least half? Whether they accomplish that with one 60w bulb or a 13w CFL, in place of the two 100w bulbs, whatever.
The biggest deficiency there is that most residential light fixtures are horrible at actually throwing lumens anywhere useful -- they're typically designed to look pretty. Consider that typical lampshades for example probably absorb about half of the lumens, and most of the rest that do make it out either hit the ceiling (little use) or the floor. I've seen tons of lamps which actually have matte black shades in many areas, rather than reflective surfaces -- simply absorbing a lot of the lumens iniitally produced.

The other trend is to have recessed "can" lights every 10 feet or so, with R30 lamps that are very deeply recessed (so that a lot of the light never makes it out). Instead of using incandescent lamps there, IMO a setup with recessed t5 linear tubes with parabolic reflectors and louvered shades, with a dimming ballast installed would have produced a much nicer effect with ~1/5th the energy cost. (Also, fluorescents on dimmers maintain the same efficiency at just about all intensities, wheras incans get decreasingly efficient as they are dimmed.) The newest retail stores have these sort of fixtures and they look great. Not only is the lamp more efficient, so is the fixture at getting the light from the lamp into the room.

The trends I have noticed now at my local Lowes/Home Depot stores are absurd -- in the fluorescent section, 90% of the stock is magnetic ballasted T12s (illegal to use in offices), and most of the incandescent bulbs that they sell for normal prices are the ones with the blue filters that are actually LESS efficient than the old ones! Normal incandescent bulbs in many cases have been raised to as much as $7 each! I strongly suspect they are simply dumping crap on the shelves in order to force people to pay $7/ea for incan lamps and take in a huge profit margin...
 
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Amonra

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The biggest deficiency there is that most residential light fixtures are horrible at actually throwing lumens anywhere useful -- they're typically designed to look pretty. Consider that typical lampshades for example probably absorb about half of the lumens, and most of the rest that do make it out either hit the ceiling (little use) or the floor. I've seen tons of lamps which actually have matte black shades in many areas, rather than reflective surfaces -- simply absorbing a lot of the lumens iniitally produced.
..

The fact that current fixtures waste a lot of the light by covering it or directing it to useless areas is very true. in the case of a CFL or a normal bulb if the fixture eats up a lot of light you just slap in a more powerful bulb. This you cannot do with led's, you cannot just add more led's or increase the power without a significant increase in the size of the bulb due to heatsinking issues. if you do the bulb will not fit the fixture designed for the size of a normal bulb. This and the fact that led's offer a relatively narrow beam angle is why a 'retrofit' led bulb will never compete with a CFL or bulb in home lighting ( Unless a single led or array outputting 1000lumens with a 200 -270 degree beam angle which is so efficient that it only requires a heatsink the size of a ping pong ball is developed )
Decorative or accent lighting like mr-16 are a different story as i think led retrofit bulbs offer a big improvement of the current technology especially in energy consumption.

For led general home lighting to take off, manufacturers have to give up making led retrofits and start making complete fixtures where the led forms an integral part of the fixture and the fixture itself is the heatsink.
Making this kind of fixture out of aluminium with fancy styling to make it appealing whilst distributing multiple leds correctly to achieve even lighting where it is needed should be relatively simple. cost wise i dont think that it would be much more expensive than a normal fixture from a materials point of view. normal fancy fixtures are quite expensive anyway.

Here https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179301 is an example of an led fixture i built out of aluminium with the above thoughts in mind. It cost me about $80 for all the materials including the led's and driver.
 

SemiMan

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Another point I wanted to add, on a very political/personal level: Eventually, a lot of Americans will lose their jobs as the demand for traditional lighting sources goes down. In our dept, we currently upgrade all of our traffic signals with LED modules. (more on that later). We very rarely relamp with incans anymore unless the fixture won't support a LED upgrade. So, in our dept, we've effectively slashed our needs for good ol' MADE IN USA lamps. All of our LED equipment is foreign sourced. American companies so far have not been able to compete in CFL production (all from China now) and I am SURE that the future LED home lighting will continue this trend. Which will see even more Americans laid off. Remember, aggressive plans have far reaching effects on more than what you can see. By mandating "high tech" energy efficient lighting, you basically hand out tens of thousands of pink slips to fellow Americans. Which of course starts a domino effect in our society. In the meantime, your "high tech" energy efficient lamps and CFL's are being produced in a developing country that has almost no environmental regulations (if they do, they are NOT enforced), no labor laws, etc etc. Now, what is the REAL cost of your "high tech" lamps?? Have you ever been to a manufacturing city (Development Zone per their term) in China? You would be horrified. A incandescent lamp is a very basic item. CFL's and LED's require alot of resources to manufacture, and they DO produce alot of industrial waste in the process. Part of the low cost factor of foriegn production is the simple fact that they abuse their employees and OUR environment.


From what I know, Dialight (American company... manufacture's in the U.S., Mexico, etc.) is one of the biggest LED traffic signal vendors using Lumileds (American head office) LEDs. They are also extremely reliable I believe. Perhaps you just need to evaluate who you source from. When you go with the lowest bidder and/or do not write a good specification, that is what happens.

Semiman
 

made in china

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From what I know, Dialight (American company... manufacture's in the U.S., Mexico, etc.) is one of the biggest LED traffic signal vendors using Lumileds (American head office) LEDs. They are also extremely reliable I believe. Perhaps you just need to evaluate who you source from. When you go with the lowest bidder and/or do not write a good specification, that is what happens.

Semiman

Actually, we do use Dialight and GELcore. Our red and yellow LED modules rarely fail. I believe that the most common reason a red LED module would fail is prob due to lightning strike. We replace 5x more greens than reds, and of course rarely the yellow LEDs (we do have about 5% of our signals do use yellow LED, and we upgrade any broken yellow indication with LED).

Some greens have lasted up to 6 years, which is pretty good. That's about 3-4x longer than an incan. However, have you seen these modules? Huge amounts of plastic, some lead, copper, IC's, etc. There is currently no recycling program for these units. Even if there were, how much pollution would be made in transporting and processing these units?

As for our 3M programmable green LEDs, they last only as long as a regular 150W lamp. They are OVERdriving the **** out of these signal green LEDs (100ma for a 5mm!) so lots of these are finding an early retirement.


As to the posts regarding fixture efficiency: Yeah, build a dedicated fixture for the LEDs. So as soon as the device fails, the whole fixture ends up in the junkyard and you have a big empty spot on your ceiling/wall where that fixture used to be.

My point: There is an environmental cost by the manufacturing of these new devices that offsets to some extent the benefit over the older incans/CFLs.

And to jtr: I definitely agree with you on the American labor point. But that's another soapbox for me to stand on another day.
 

jtr1962

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As to the posts regarding fixture efficiency: Yeah, build a dedicated fixture for the LEDs. So as soon as the device fails, the whole fixture ends up in the junkyard and you have a big empty spot on your ceiling/wall where that fixture used to be.
It's probably a good idea to design a fixture so that it can be refurbished. This is especially true given the pace of LED development. When more efficient LEDs are available, you send the fixture out to be retrofitted with new LEDs for less than the cost of a new fixture. Even when an LED fixture is disposed of, a lot of it can be recycled. The aluminum heat sinks are quite amenable to recycling, for example. Let's not forget that disposal of large numbers of lighting fixtures is nothing new. What happened to all those old T12 fixtures in offices and stores, and the pcb-laden ballasts which powered them? That probably represented more toxic waste than any future LED fixtures might.

In the end we can probably design an LED ballast to last for many decades by paying attention to the heat. Retrofitting the LEDs when they dim appreciable every decade or two can be designed into the fixture. Fact is electronics of all types are getting ever more reliable if made properly. It's probably not unreasonable to expect a well-designed LED fixture in an indoor environment to last as long as the building it's in. I think once we get past the screw-in disposable bulb mentality there will be a lot of incentive to design better residential fixtures. Commercial fluorescent and discharge lamp fixtures already easily last 20 or 30 years.

We're still on a steep learning curve with LEDs. Some of the premature failures can be attributed to that, most are just due to poor design to save what amounts to pennies. For example, many Christmas lights are half-wave rectified without filter capacitors. I'll gladly pay the extra twenty cents per string that these parts will cost to avoid flickering. I think most consumers would.

As for our 3M programmable green LEDs, they last only as long as a regular 150W lamp. They are OVERdriving the **** out of these signal green LEDs (100ma for a 5mm!) so lots of these are finding an early retirement.
Seriously, I would refuse delivery of a product like that. For any application of 5mm LEDs where reasonable life is expected I would drive at 10 mA tops, better yet 5 mA. I'll bet they're probably using the cheapest (i.e. least bright) LEDs they can get which is why they're baking them to death. I'd bet decent LEDs driven at 5 mA might well be as bright. Fact is despite the common 20 mA rating for 5mm LEDs, 5 to 10 mA is really about the most you should drive them at unless you're happy with life of only a few thousand hours. If you drive at 5 mA, use decent LEDs (Cree or Nichia chips), and have wide copper traces for heatsinking, you might well get in excess of 100,000 hours (about 25 years on a typical duty cycle) out of your green LEDs. One thing LED traffic lights have going in their favor is they're not a continuous duty cycle. The LEDs can cool during the 30 seconds or so that another color is on.
 

made in china

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It's probably a good idea to design a fixture so that it can be refurbished. This is especially true given the pace of LED development. When more efficient LEDs are available, you send the fixture out to be retrofitted with new LEDs for less than the cost of a new fixture. Even when an LED fixture is disposed of, a lot of it can be recycled. The aluminum heat sinks are quite amenable to recycling, for example. Let's not forget that disposal of large numbers of lighting fixtures is nothing new. What happened to all those old T12 fixtures in offices and stores, and the pcb-laden ballasts which powered them? That probably represented more toxic waste than any future LED fixtures might.

They ought to standardize a few package shapes/styles so that in the future you can easily upgrade/service your LED fixture. I fear though that with the short attention span the industry has, there will be a mess of "standards" the first few years. Kind of like how old mobile phones all had charger/data connectors that LOOKED similar, but would never be interchangeable until recently now most phones use a mini USB for power/data.

In the end we can probably design an LED ballast to last for many decades by paying attention to the heat. Retrofitting the LEDs when they dim appreciable every decade or two can be designed into the fixture. Fact is electronics of all types are getting ever more reliable if made properly. It's probably not unreasonable to expect a well-designed LED fixture in an indoor environment to last as long as the building it's in. I think once we get past the screw-in disposable bulb mentality there will be a lot of incentive to design better residential fixtures. Commercial fluorescent and discharge lamp fixtures already easily last 20 or 30 years.

The other mentality we need to get past is the gotta-have-it-as-cheap-as possible-so-build-it-in-China" mentality. The real reason why "Made In China" (and other dubious manufacturing locales) is getting such a bad rep is because American corporation are too short sighted to care about the longevity of a product when the initial profit is the overwhelming concern to themselves. And in turn, the Chinese manufacturers themselves know that they won't necessarily be held accountable for defective equipment when they intentionally cut corners. Even if they are held accountable, there are many other businessmen knocking at their doors to build the next hot item at Wal Mart. Yes stuff made in other countries can be good, but there is little accountability on the manufacturers end for them to care. Remember, they need to fill several shipping containers to make it economically viable before anyone catches on to the low quality product it's already too late.

We're still on a steep learning curve with LEDs. Some of the premature failures can be attributed to that, most are just due to poor design to save what amounts to pennies. For example, many Christmas lights are half-wave rectified without filter capacitors. I'll gladly pay the extra twenty cents per string that these parts will cost to avoid flickering. I think most consumers would.

Unfortunately, I bought Philips brand LED xmas lights last year. VERY high quality sets as far as build goes. However, I was so turned off by the 60hz flicker I have not even used them yet. I love the pure color and sparkly brightness of them, but as soon as I move my head the flicker annoys me. What a terrible oversight by a respected name.

Again, when cost is the primary concern in a disposable society....

Too bad though since technically LEDs should last a long time, they still find ways to end up in a dump anyway despite all the hype. If not for 60hz flicker, it'll be sub par plastics, defective wiring, poor QC, poor engineering, etc etc that will surely doom most LED sets to a short life.


Seriously, I would refuse delivery of a product like that. For any application of 5mm LEDs where reasonable life is expected I would drive at 10 mA tops, better yet 5 mA. I'll bet they're probably using the cheapest (i.e. least bright) LEDs they can get which is why they're baking them to death. I'd bet decent LEDs driven at 5 mA might well be as bright. Fact is despite the common 20 mA rating for 5mm LEDs, 5 to 10 mA is really about the most you should drive them at unless you're happy with life of only a few thousand hours. If you drive at 5 mA, use decent LEDs (Cree or Nichia chips), and have wide copper traces for heatsinking, you might well get in excess of 100,000 hours (about 25 years on a typical duty cycle) out of your green LEDs. One thing LED traffic lights have going in their favor is they're not a continuous duty cycle. The LEDs can cool during the 30 seconds or so that another color is on.

The traffic signal modules have standards they need to meet for color, luminous intensity, beam pattern etc. These 3M modules are about 4-1/2" in diameter and expected to replace a narrow spot 150W Halogen PAR lamp. It's a tough life. We actually have been sending back to the manufacturer for warranty.

Some LED traffic signals are almost always continuously "ON". During certain periods, an intersection may rest in green on the main street. Anyways, the above problem only applies to the small 4-1/2" green modules. The other modules are these big honkers that weigh about 2 pounds and are either 8" or 12" in diameter. The green ones (signal green LEDs are not long lived for some reason, aren't they GAiAs? I think the signal green LEDs are a newer chemistry) don't last very long. Not uncommon to have these die after 2 years, which is about as long as the ol' 67w incans. And these 2+ pound modules of plastic, metal and electronics goes straight into the regular garbage can. As "ideal" as LED setups are, they are not perfect yet. In the real world, I think they are worse overall. Some research group should research how much pollution is involved in the manufacture and disposal of the LED "solutions" compared to the standard incan bulb. Everyone only looks at the energy savings or maintenance costs. There's other costs here that people ignore.

Oh, and BTW, the white LEDs in the pedestrian signals are relatively short lived too. Generally the phosphors go yellow or the LED's just end up looking "burned" in prob 2-3 years of service then they fail. JOB SECURITY!!!
 

SemiMan

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However, have you seen these modules? Huge amounts of plastic, some lead, copper, IC's, etc. There is currently no recycling program for these units. Even if there were, how much pollution would be made in transporting and processing these units?

Actually I have seen some of these modules, the Dialight ones and some of the cheap ones. On the electronics side, huge steps have been made forward w.r.t. environmental effects....though I have to check it applies to your product. I believe it does now. ROHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances] legislation has removed most harmful materials such as lead from at least the end products. All told, the energy savings likely takes out far more hazardous pollution than would be added in manufacturing.

I am surprised that your greens are failing as much as they are. Dialight I remember putting out a press release that said they never trace failures back to the Lumileds LEDS. That sounded unlikely given how many they make, but it shows that is not the failure point. I imagine poorly protected power supplies or poorly designed are the weak spots. Perhaps they are better off giving up a bit of efficiency and cost for a more robust design.
 

made in china

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I think once they switch to power LEDs and under drive them a bit we'll see an improvement.
 

EricB

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The green ones (signal green LEDs are not long lived for some reason, aren't they GAiAs? I think the signal green LEDs are a newer chemistry) don't last very long.
GaN. Anything lower than 550-60nm. Green signals are generally 505nm. So they will have the same chemistry as the blue. Unless they have changed it; since the GaN is the newest technology' it was always the shortest lived. That was one of the things that needed improvement, along with the brightness. I know the brightness has passed the other colors, but I haven't heard much about the lifespans compared to the older chemistry, lately.
 

Closet_Flashaholic

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Several weeks ago, sitting around at lunch with 8 people discussing one person's new house that he is having built (keep in mind these are 8 techno-geeks in the truest sense of the word):

Person building house: I have decided to go with LED lighting for all fixtures in the house. It's expensive, but I think the payback makes sense over the next 10 years.

As we went around the table, the remaining 7 said that they had replaced most incandescent lighting with CFLs when they burned out. However each one stated that "there is no way in he** that they were going to buy an LED replacement for USD 60-72 per bulb when a CFL costs $2.."

End of Story.

My Conclusion:
LEDs will not make significant inroads into consumer/replacement until the price gets competitive with CFLs. For new housing/construction, it might be an easier sell since the cost will be amortized along with the mortgage. But LEDs have a ways to go yet in the cost area. It's not a matter of efficiency, it's not a matter of longevity, it's mostly a matter of initial cash outlay and a little bit about ROI.

I am not saying that this is a good thing, I am just saying that it's the way we look at things. (A little short sighted and always looking at the short-to-mid term instead of longer term. This may ultimately be our undoing..)
 
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