Li-Ion protection technology and possible dangers

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66,000 units recalled.

note recall was for fire hazard during recharging...

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Name of product: Radio Control Model Airplanes (Models 4153 and 4161) with Lithium Polymer Batteries

Units: About 66,000

Distributor: Estes-Cox Corp., of Penrose, Colo.

Hazard: The airplanes can overheat while recharging the battery, posing a fire hazard.

Incidents/Injuries: Estes-Cox has received nine reports of overheating, including one report of a plane catching fire and resulting in a minor burn injury.

Description: This recall involves Sky Squadron Model 4153 (sold at RadioShack) and Sky Rangers Model 4161 (sold at Wal-Mart) radio controlled airplanes with rechargeable lithium batteries. The airplanes have a wingspan of about 18- to 20-inches and a polystyrene foam fuselage. Model 4153 is a blue Corsair single engine airplane with a Number 15 decal and a black and blue transmitter/charger. Model 4161 is a red twin engine plane with an all-black transmitter/charger. The model numbers are on the box and instructions.

Sold at: RadioShack stores nationwide sold the Sky Squadron Airplane from December 2006 through February 2007 for about $35. Wal-Mart stores nationwide sold the Sky Ranger Airplane from January 2007 through February 2007 for about $30.

Manufactured in: China

Remedy: Consumers with the recalled airplanes should stop using them immediately and contact Estes-Cox for instructions on returning the airplane for a replacement product.

Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Estes-Cox at between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. MT Monday through Friday, or visit the firm's Web site at www.estesrockets.com
 
milkyspit said:
Just a wild idea guys... but would it be crazy to make a database of some sort of who's selling Li-ion cells and what form(s) of protection are in them?

This is such a great idea! It will definitely help new members and would be a good tool when someone is in the market for rechargeable Lithium Ion batteries. Did anyone put this together yet?
 
Guys, doesn't everyone here already know that anything with a high energy density is dangerous? If you are pushing the design envelope of these things, you will get the occassional mishap.

Buy yourself a steel ammo box. Line it with something to prevent any risk of a short. Put your batteries in that, and charge away. If you flip the lid back over, you will have a tiny gap for the leads and for venting should it be required.

However, this applies for almost anything where you are stuffing huge amounts of energy into something. If you build a gyro, it is safe. Start pumping energy into it, and you might want to think about the failure protection. Go 30% beyond the design threshold, and you really, really want something there to stop the shrapnel.

Make nitrogylcerine, it's the same. Load ammo, it's the same. Pump air or other gas into a pressure vessel, it's the same. It isn't a secret, it's in fact fairly obvious, in the same way you don't leave a petrol tank sat in the hallway for months. That much energy stored up, unless proven stable (almost impossible, it can only be at a local minima until exhausted) should *never* be left in a place where major and catastrophic failure will be dangerous.

Don't store loose rimfire rounds in your front jeans pocket, same as you don't store your Li-Po flashlight in your front jeans pocket.

For info, I use a set of reclaimed from a laptop rechargable Li batteries. They are probably PTC protected, but they aren't circuit protected, as I removed all that when I split the pack. However, I run them conservatively, and it is two parallel matched cells. I don't expect to have any issues. They charge using the "dangerous" charger shown above (which clearly isn't - if you set it to the wrong setting, anything is dangerous) in a steel box to limit the impact should anything CATO. I don't expect any issue, but I'm smart enough to know that one might arise.
 
Guys, doesn't everyone here already know that anything with a high energy density is dangerous? If you are pushing the design envelope of these things, you will get the occassional mishap.

Buy yourself a steel ammo box. Line it with something to prevent any risk of a short. Put your batteries in that, and charge away. If you flip the lid back over, you will have a tiny gap for the leads and for venting should it be required.

However, this applies for almost anything where you are stuffing huge amounts of energy into something. If you build a gyro, it is safe. Start pumping energy into it, and you might want to think about the failure protection. Go 30% beyond the design threshold, and you really, really want something there to stop the shrapnel.

Make nitrogylcerine, it's the same. Load ammo, it's the same. Pump air or other gas into a pressure vessel, it's the same. It isn't a secret, it's in fact fairly obvious, in the same way you don't leave a petrol tank sat in the hallway for months. That much energy stored up, unless proven stable (almost impossible, it can only be at a local minima until exhausted) should *never* be left in a place where major and catastrophic failure will be dangerous.

Don't store loose rimfire rounds in your front jeans pocket, same as you don't store your Li-Po flashlight in your front jeans pocket.

For info, I use a set of reclaimed from a laptop rechargable Li batteries. They are probably PTC protected, but they aren't circuit protected, as I removed all that when I split the pack. However, I run them conservatively, and it is two parallel matched cells. I don't expect to have any issues. They charge using the "dangerous" charger shown above (which clearly isn't - if you set it to the wrong setting, anything is dangerous) in a steel box to limit the impact should anything CATO. I don't expect any issue, but I'm smart enough to know that one might arise.

To answer your question from 4 months ago...after seeing posts over the last 4 months....there are still a lot of people who do not realize the high energy dangers. Your idea to use a metal ammo box is also nearly worthless as many videos have shown if Li-Ion/LiPo cells explode.
 
Reading this thread makes me wonder if i should simply stay
with my AA NiMH cells. :thinking:


Are 18650's not something that i wanna' use ? ? ?

:confused:
_
 
Had my first event!

I rather abused a couple of the 18650's. A month later, I tested them. One was dead as anything, the other PTZ'd at 20%. (All others are 80% to 100%)

I stuck the "dead" one across a motor to see if there was anything at all there. Nope. I then did the same with the 20% one, and it spun. I put the unit down, and then heard a faint ticking. It picked up the "dead" one and took it rapidly outside, throwing it a small distance from the house. About 40 seconds later it vented! :whistle:

I don't think they like running a motor "raw" with no buffer, unlike the unprotected cells, which don't care at all.
 
Can/should an AW protected 18650 be used after a slight venting incident?

I recently placed a fully-charged 18650 in my Deree CL1H, turned it on and immediately noticed a little cloudy vapor behind the lens. I shut it off, dismantled the light and walked away from the parts because it smelled bad. Later I reassembled the light and reinstalled the same battery to check the function of both. No apparent issues, but I only had the light on for a few seconds and then dissassembled it again.

What the hell happened? How stupid was any of what I did after the event? Should I ever use this battery again?
 
You are sure it vented? Maybe something by or associated with the circuit caused the gasses.

Bill
 
Can/should an AW protected 18650 be used after a slight venting incident?

I recently placed a fully-charged 18650 in my Deree CL1H, turned it on and immediately noticed a little cloudy vapor behind the lens. I shut it off, dismantled the light and walked away from the parts because it smelled bad. Later I reassembled the light and reinstalled the same battery to check the function of both. No apparent issues, but I only had the light on for a few seconds and then dissassembled it again.

What the hell happened? How stupid was any of what I did after the event? Should I ever use this battery again?


I don't know why this happened, but I would guess that Li-ion cells do not have self-healing properties. What's to keep whatever happened from happening again? Therefore, I'd conclude that this Li-ion needs to be taken out of service.

If you decided to keep using it, there is a possibility that it will vent more forcefully than it did the first time, on the charger or in the light, taking either the charger or the light with it. At the very least, it may fail you in the light at bad moment, when you really need the light.

It just sounds like false economy to me to even attempt to keep this Li-ion in service.

(But then, I tend to give conservative advice)
 
Can/should an AW protected 18650 be used after a slight venting incident?

I recently placed a fully-charged 18650 in my Deree CL1H, turned it on and immediately noticed a little cloudy vapor behind the lens. I shut it off, dismantled the light and walked away from the parts because it smelled bad. Later I reassembled the light and reinstalled the same battery to check the function of both. No apparent issues, but I only had the light on for a few seconds and then dissassembled it again.

What the hell happened? How stupid was any of what I did after the event? Should I ever use this battery again?

More info please. Is this the first time you used the AW protected 18650. Is the Deree CL1H new? What current does the Deree pull from an 18650? Did you try another 18650 with the Deree? Is there any oozing noted from 18650, swelling? What is the voltage after incident of the 18650? Anything else you can tell us? Why are you sure that the 18650 vented?

Bill

Bill
 
Isn't the bad smell a dead giveaway?

Not sure. What if there was a short in the circuit? Maybe heat sinking paste, or epozy. My DX drop in gave off a terrible smell when I first used it, that was electrical, in this case, but other materials can give off a bad smell and cause clouding of the lens. I asked questions because not much info was given, and it probably is venting of 18650, but not sure. CPF, besides being fun, is about information, and I am asking for more info. Thanks,

Bill
 
I'm the first owner of the CL1H, but I've been using it without incident for a couple months.

The 18650 is the same age, used in the CL1H repeatedly, again without incident. I purchased two AW 18650s to use in this light. The other batt has never had an issue.

I'm fairly certain it was the batt because the smell was worse from it than the light and lingered with the batt after it dissipated from the disassembled light. I have not used the light or either batt since my previous brief "test" noted before. There is no outward sign of damage on the batt and the smell is gone (and yes, I have been careful to not breathe in any of this in a prolonged manner).

I am not equipped to test voltage or current draw.
 
Battery smells. Good enough for me. BTW buy a DMM. Harbor Freight has them for $4.00 or so, good enough for basic stuff. Get a lot of info from a DMM and can help you analyze problems. Besides all flashaholics should own one.

Bill
 
What's a DMM?

I briefly tried the "bad" battery in the CL1H again. Light works; no noticeable venting, but the batt smells again. This one is going in the trash... or does AW have a replacement policy?
 
What's a DMM?

I briefly tried the "bad" battery in the CL1H again. Light works; no noticeable venting, but the batt smells again. This one is going in the trash... or does AW have a replacement policy?

Contact AW before you throw that cell away. If it's a manufacturing quality control issue he'll make it right. You'll be helping each other out.
 
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