Looking for a mill!

[deebee]

You people have really got me into trouble! I was perfectly happy to get a great deal on a HF 8x12 lathe but then I read all your talk about mills....
Also, I have lunch every Saturday with friends who own lathes and mills so I am under pressure there too! After lunch today we went to look at a mill that is for sale by a 90 year old German tool and die maker who has decided to retire.... This is the mill he has in his basement at home. It is an RF30, "Made in Taiwan" that is about 7-8 years old he says. It looks like new and he say has had very little use. It has a 2hp motor. There are a few tools with it also. I could get it for about $1000.
After looking around in the past few days I had come to the conclusion that an X3 mill was the way to go-and is about the same price as this-what do you experts think?

 

[Anglepoise]

An old RF30 made by Rong Fu in Taiwan was very popular 20 years ago and is an excellent machine, very well made and far better than its many clones.

Now as to price I can not say but if the machine has little use it might be
worth it...your call.

My local supplier sells the current model RF 31LH for $2,495.

 

[precisionworks]

IIRC, the RF30 is no longer made, replaced by the current RF31 (Mirage Man & StrikerDown just bought one, cmacclel has one, and I have the ENCO version). The ENCO website is currently down for maintenance, but it seems like Brian paid about $1289 for a brand new machine with stand.

Used machine tools are worth about half of new, if they are in excellent shape. That would put the used RF30 around $650.

I had come to the conclusion that an X3 mill was the way to go

If space is really limited, like an apartment, that could be a good choice. If you have the room, the RF31 will handle larger parts, cut more difficult materials, and provide a machine that you won't outgrow for a while.

 

[StrikerDown]

It sounds a bit high priced to me unless the tooling that it comes with are desirable items. Tooling up for milling get costly real fast. I will have the cost of the mill in tooling by the time I get the basics in used and lower cost items.

 

[SafetyBob]

I agree, as long as a nice amount of tooling or vises or something comes with it then $1,000 sounds good.

If it's just the machine and nothing but the machine, you need to do a little talking.......

But excellent find though......excellent.

Bob E.

 

[precisionworks]

unless the tooling that it comes with are desirable items

+1

The mill you're considering may have enough really nice tooling to justify the price. If there's a Kurt D675, add $200. A full set of collets & end mills, another $100 (as long as they're sharp). You can pick up almost all the tooling you need on eBay or Craigslist for roughly 1/4 of new cost, sometimes less.

The biggest problem most sellers have is their valuation of used tooling. I looked at a 13x40 Enco, older machine (Taiwan), light use by a gunsmith. These are always on sale for $2500, sometimes with free shipping, & I would have gladly paid $1250 for the machine ... probably as much as $1500 if needed. BUT, he had a couple of boxes full of "tooling" that wouldn't bring $100 if sold on eBay -- and he added $1000 to the lathe for that junk. That isn't an isolated case - decent tooling gets separated from the machine and sold, junk tooling stays with the machine.

Your mill may be the exception, & I hope it is. Just look closely at what tooling there is, the condition, and what you could buy it for at auction or on sale.

The first three words in Machinery's Handbook --- Never Pay Retail

 

[mdocod]

If you determine that the included tooling makes ~$1000 a good deal, and you have the space, and ability to move the machine into that space (it's going to be pretty heavy), then that's certainly not a bad option at all.

I recently went through this process of deciding on a machine and came to the conclusion of an SX3 for numerous reasons that are directly related to my needs in a machine for a productive environment where I need to be able to repeat various tool-changing with minimal loss of setup/layout, which translates to needing a dovetail Z-axis. Keeping in mind that I work primary in plastics, which reduces the need for a lot of weight and power and rigidity dramatically. That decision turned out to be perfect for my needs, however, this does not mean it's the best option for everyone, and I would encourage everyone to go through the process of weighing the balance of price/weight/features and take into consideration the additional costs that will be involved with various options. In these decisions, time is your friend, if you can take your time and research options and wait for a good deal on used machinery within a reasonable distance, then that's usually considered the best way to go. For me, I don't live in a place where there's a ton of this type of machinery being sold frequently, and was kind of in a rush to get a machine up and running.

I was really turned off by the X3 mostly on account of the plastic-gear-drive 2-speed transmission. I've read around the net that the transmission is noisy, and the gears will break when you crash the machine or cause an unwanted sudden load of sorts. The SX3 had the belt-only drive system coupled to a more powerful 1HP motor. Belts are cheaper than gears . For a $50 upgrade, an after-market pulley kit nearly doubles the stock spindle RPMs if needed (I'm seriously considering this).

Picking out used machinery will almost always result in more machine/iron for the dollar, but organizing the method of getting the machine home and put in place can often add costs unforeseen, like truck/trailer/forklift rental. Keep this in mind. New machinery ordered from one of the major distributors has the advantage of being delivered at least out front of your house. In my case, the delivery guy offered to roll it right to the garage.

Lightly used is ideal, as you probably won't have to do much if any fine tuning and modifications to get the machine ready for use. Brand new chinese mills, or older more heavily used machines will both require some work. My SX3 Took a lot of cleanup, and there were definitely some areas that needed some attention to be "right" or at least closer to it . Still working on a solution to the Z-Axis gib which is kind of a bum-deal. I think it will eventually need to be counterbalanced to really have a nice operation on the Z-axis that doesn't require engaging of the Z-axis lock before cutting.

I finally had the chance last night to play around milling in some mild steel on this small machine. For small projects, while respecting the machine and keeping the depth of cut and feed rates under control, it's adequate. However, if I wanted to get to removing serious material on this machine I would definitely need the spindle speed upgrade pulley and some cobalt or carbide roughing end-mills. A larger machine would undoubtedly be much more forgiving in metals. If you plan on doing a LOT of work with hard metals, I suggest buying a machine with as much weight and quill diameter as you can possibly figure out how to move/afford.

-Eric

 

[deebee]

Gentlemen, thank you for your responses.
Probably the major concern I had was the round column--reading comments from people on various websites it is the thing that the "experts" advise against. And yet others swear by these mills.

 

[precisionworks]

the major concern I had was the round column

Whenever the head has to be raised or lowered, it does add a couple of minutes to the process.

Say that the head is set low to drill a starter hole that will be finished with a boring bar-boring head. Here's the work flow:

1. Drill starter hole with head lowered

2. Raise head & lock head in place

3. Remove drill chuck & replace with boring head-boring bar

4. Attach Indicol holder + dial test indicator

5. Move X & Y dials to center starter hole under spindle, which will be indicated by no movement of the dial test needle

6. Bore the hole

A dovetail column is not a magic bullet - it eliminates steps 4 & 5, so it saves couple of minutes each time you need to find center after a head move. When you get comfortable using the Indicol + dial test, you'll be able to center a part while you text message on your cell phone

The Indicol + dial test is also used to indicate the vise parallel to the table axis, as well as to center an existing hole under the spindle before drilling or boring to a larger size. It's also used to center a rotary table under the spindle, and to then center the part on the rotary table.

 

[precisionworks]

Forgot to add the photo of the Indicol + dial test

It works just the same when a boring head is in the spindle.

 

[deebee]

Many thanks for that.--The dial test I have--the Indicol I never heard of!:thinking:

I was under the impression that HF, Grizzly and Enco machines were the same but in different colors. The HF 33686 mill looks the same as the Grizzly and Enco mills but is significantly cheaper-$899 less 20% discount coupon. Is it an inferior machine does anybody know?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33686

 

[mdocod]

I was under the impression that HF, Grizzly and Enco machines were the same but in different colors. The HF 33686 mill looks the same as the Grizzly and Enco mills but is significantly cheaper-$899 less 20% discount coupon. Is it an inferior machine does anybody know?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33686

I saw that machine also during my investigation and was really curious about the much reduced price...

Notice it has a lower HP motor.... Maybe HF got a "deal" ordering a bunch with a motor they were trying to get rid of or something...

I have read around a LOT about these various chinese machines and their distributors, and there seems to be an on-going trend of people suggesting that the versions of the machines that come from grizzly or other sources often come "cleaner" with better "fit/finish" than those from harbor freight, suggesting that maybe harbor freight takes the "lower bins" so to speak at reduced cost. I have no way to prove this or disprove it, only that it has been said more than once by more than one person on the net.

---------

If you want a dovetail Z, and you need the weight of a heavier mill/drill for cutting a lot of metal, I seriously suggest considering a RF45 clone. If I could have sprung for one I would have. LatheMaster sells one at less cost than just about any other distributor, and theirs is the only I am aware of that comes with a regular 120V single phase motor.

 

[precisionworks]

I was under the impression that HF, Grizzly and Enco machines were the same but in different colors.

I don't doubt that the castings are very similar, and some may interchange with others. Fit, finish, and quality control (or lack thereof) separate the best from the worst.

Taiwanese machines seem to be the best available from Asia, and are almost always at a higher price point. The worst Chinese machines are a kit that's been pre-assembled on a dirt floor, and some of the dirt often ends up inside the machine - no extra charge

Grizzly & Enco both have very good customer service. They'll fix it if it isn't right, but the fix may take a few months ... ships don't move across the ocean at a fast pace. It all depends on how picky you are, what you want to pay, and how much time you want to invest in rebuilding a "new" machine. Generally, if you pay more, you spend less time fiddling.

 

[precisionworks]

FWIW, there's an Interapid 312b-1 plus Indicol on Craigslist:

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/1057994977.html