Looking for good sources for used CNC equipment.

[jhanko]

I am FINALLY ready to take the plunge into automation. I am looking at buying a 3 axis lathe with live tooling, or a 2 axis lathe and a separate CNC mill. This seems the better approach as I won't be relying on one machine for everything. Space will be a factor (a 12' x 20' shop), as well as power requirements (7.5 hp max). I will most likely be buying used, as I'll get more machine this way. I have no problem with repairing/restoring heavy equipment if necessary.

I have been hunting down equipment for a while and am getting very frustrated. These used equipment dealers are worse than car salesmen (no offence to the car salesmen on the forum). They are like vultures, only interested in getting the sale. A lot of bait & switch. All of them I have contacted do not have the machines in their possession (working on heavily marked up consignment), so they can't answer detailed questions. They all have the same responses (It's in great condition, never crashed, low hours, been sitting unused, blah,blah,blah). BTW, new equipment dealers seem to be no better. I had one tell me that C-axis was included. The quote he emailed me had it listed as a $4k option.

Does anyone know of any good sites to buy used equipment? An honest reseller (if this exists), or classifieds from owners who actually have the machines. I will be paying with cash, so financing is not a concern. I certainly didn't think that finding the machines would be more difficult than paying for them...

Any leads would be appreciated. I'm in Chicagoland, if that matters... Thanks!

 

[Lyndon]

I'm sure if you go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question you'll get tons of responses.

I see a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions. Probably lots in your area.

I've won end mills, inspection gear & other tooling from Hoff-Hilk online auctions and gotten OK prices. No screaming deals, but saved some money. Warning: wait until you attend the inspection day so you can look at the stuff in-person before bidding.

 

[jhanko]

I'm sure if you go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question you'll get tons of responses.

Yes, but I don't know anyone over there. I've grown to value and trust the members here and would like to hear their ideas.

I see a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions. Probably lots in your area.

Maybe so, but I can't find them.

I've won end mills, inspection gear & other tooling from Hoff-Hilk online auctions and gotten OK prices. No screaming deals, but saved some money. Warning: wait until you attend the inspection day so you can look at the stuff in-person before bidding.

Thanks for that lead. Nothing interests me right now, but I'll keep an eye out.

 

[precisionworks]

I have no problem with repairing/restoring heavy equipment if necessary.

Most used NC machinery falls into one of two classes - almost new at nearly new price, or so old that the controller is Stone Age & the machine needs a complete refit ... cost about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of a new machine :sigh:

a lot of CNC machines selling at auctions.

+1

Auctions are probably the best place to buy a used NC lathe. Many companies expanded at the wrong time with little capital reserve & The Recession did them in. I get auction fliers three or four times a week advertising NC machines that were purchased new in 2005-2006-2007-2008, etc. It's a buyer's market at these auctions.

go over to Practical Machinist and ask this question

+1

There's a separate forum for CNC: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/

There's also a Machinery for Sale section, but most of the NC equipment falls into "Stone Age controller & needs a refit" ... with prices that would be optimistic even without The Recession.

New NC equipment isn't a bad deal as banks will long term finance the purchase & interest rates are at historic lows - just make sure the machine will pay for itself with work in progress. You can probably buy a decent new machine for $2k per month.

A newer used machine will save some money. Buy one at a poorly attended auction on a rainy day in the middle of the week & you can come out nicely. I'd look really closely if the machine is more than 10 years old, as it could easily cost a bunch to refit.

 

[jhanko]

Thanks for the info. I agree that auctions would be the best option, but I'm having trouble locating them. Maybe I'm not searching right.

I can go new, but I won't get the quality I would like. I can get a brand new Omniturn GT-75 with c-axis and live tooling installed for well under $50k delivered to my house. This would do everything I need, but the fact that it's 1300 lbs scares me. Very little mass there. Must be very cheaply made. A good machine this size should be 3000-4000 lbs. I would rather get a 5-10 year old tank. I just can't locate one at an fair price.

 

[precisionworks]

This would do everything I need, but the fact that it's 1300 lbs scares me.

It isn't a large machine ... 4" diameter chuck, 6" swing, 12" of X travel & 9" of Z travel.

FWIW, the specs list weight at 1500#

Must be very cheaply made

They surely picked the most expensive components available to build a cheap machine :nana:

Meehanite headstock, composite cast base (much lighter than cast iron & many times stiffer), ABEC-7 cartridge bearing spindle (25 millionths TIR on the spindle ID), etc. It would have cost less & weighed more if made in ChiWan, but it's all manufactured in the USA.

F&M Magazine just had a nice writeup on the GT75: http://www.fandmmag.com/print/Fabri...m-Solving-with-a-Gang-Style-Tool-Lathe-/1$858

 

[KC2IXE]

The GT75 is a SMALL machine

I've been in the Richland Machine shop, and seen them setting them up, proving them out for the customer - cute little machine - emp on the LITTLE - they ONLY have a 12" z, and a 9" x travel - Picture a machine that takes up about as much room as a desk

 

[KC2IXE]

Barry,
You also missed that the unit only takes 34"x55" inches of floor space - aka slightly LESS than 3ft by 5ft

I was watching one (in the east coast dealers) shop making spray nozzles - with #78 holes for the spray orafice, fast enough to be scary, complete with back facing etc - they looked a lot like oil burner nozzles, and might have been.

If I was doing small work (I am) and had a way to get it down the stairs short or ripping it apart (I don't), and had enough business to justify it, I'd buy one - having the East Coast dealer less than 20 minutes away, and having friends who have bought from his used machine dealership, I'd have no problem. In fact, he's on the list of "guys I'll visit when I go to buy my next lathe, to see what he has hanging around"

Lot lower inventory (and prices) than Machinery Values in Harrison from what I can see

 

[precisionworks]

The GT75 is actually pretty heavy for its size ... the Trak TRL 1440EX has dimensions of 73" x 44" x 57", and weighs only 1800#.

http://www.southwesternindustries.com/swi/prod_lathes5.shtml

The Cubic GT Mini is another small machine that gets good reviews ... and they have a neat video

http://www.cubicmachinery.com/videos/

 

[precisionworks]

Lot lower inventory (and prices) than Machinery Values

Machinery Values gets a lot of press on PM ... and none of it is positive

They recently listed a Monarch EE, pretty much the Rolls Royce of small, manual lathes. Machinery Values did a Krylon Rebuild ... here's the qoute from the PM thread:

They painted the wipers, the slide ways that the bearings run against, etc ... it will have to be disassembled and the paint removed to get it to work. What idiots.

 

[KC2IXE]

Yeah, I know MV's rep - IF - IF I was going to buy from them, I'd go visit, and insist on an Running demo - I know folks that have been out to them - say they have a LOT of stuff, and they have gotten some good stuff - usually NOT stuff that is on ebay - get it before they "rebuild" it (BTW for those lurking - they are imachine on ebay. Like I said, they are usually near the top end of the price scale

RE a 10EE - I've gotten to do 1-2 cuts on one owned by a friend who lives out in New Mexico - The ONLY problems I can see
1)There is NO chance to get one down my stairs, where if I took an HLVH of it's base I could
2)it has a 16C spindle - IF you consider that a 'problem' (it can be either a problem or a feature - depending if your looking at tooling cost vs capability)

Once upon a time, I saw a 10EE long bed (think it's called a 100EE?) with Inch Metric threading - Back when Meridian Machine was on Long Island - Tried to talk a friend (who was looking for a manual lathe for his commercial shop at the time) into buying it, but he didn't - and the price was even wonderful - about 10 grand - tooled, and it was in almost mint condition. Needless to say, by the time I talked him into calling - it was GONE

 

[jhanko]

The GT-75 is looking better and better. Looks like a good machine to learn on. I can get a refurbished one with 6 month warranty for $21k. C-axis and live tools additional. I was seriously looking at the Cubic GTV as there's no c-axis available on the GT Mini. It looks like a much nicer machine, but the starting price is $18k more than the GT-75.

I'm going to give Omniturn another call tomorrow. I've got some more questions.

KC2IXE: Have you seen the live tooling in action on these? I'm wondering if the c-axis resolution and the controller are good enough to do small engraving.

 

[KC2IXE]

Yes, but I don't remember - it was a while back - too long.

 

[brickbat]

(10EE) has a 16C spindle

I think most of them have D1-3 spindles. Mine does. (doesn't make it easier to get into your basement, though

 

[KC2IXE]

Yes, D1-3, but they use 16c COLLETS (or at least Russ' does), vs 5C collets on say an HLVH (aka what collets, not what chuck mount). 5C are probable they MOST common collet size, and can be found everywhere - cheap.

The thing is, 5C collets top out at 1 1/16, where 16C goes to 1 5/8" - obviously a significant diference

 

[precisionworks]

5C are probable they MOST common collet size, and can be found everywhere - cheap.

+1

My used Hardinge 5C set came from Joe at Plaza Machinery ... $12 for the 16th & 32nd sizes, $8 for the 64th sizes. If you do much collet work, you'll want all 65 to cover the full range.

If your machine takes 16C collets, Hardinge makes an adapter that allows using 5C collets in the 16C spindle. The problem is that concentricity runs about .002" TIR or worse, which would work only on parts that can be turned in a single chucking. If the part is being machined on one end and the machined end is then used for chucking for a second op, the TIR would be unacceptable for many jobs:http://www.shophardinge.com/assets/PDFfiles/B050E%28LR%29.pdf

If you want to use a Hardinge collet block on the mill, 5C can also be run in a 16C block, with the adapter:http://www.shophardinge.com/assets/docs/B78colBlk.pdf

These blocks are most often seen on NC machines where they are gang assembled on a tombstone pallet changer, allowing four sided indexing around a vertical axis or around a horizontal axis (good photos of this in this link): http://www.hardinge.com/usr/pdf/collet/2365.pdf

 

[brickbat]

Yes, D1-3, but they use 16c COLLETS

Actually the EE spindle bore does not take a collet directly. It needs an adapter. Mine came with a Monarch D1-3/5C adapter, and I also have a 2J collet adapter, 2Js go up to 1=3/8, but like 16C are hard to find at a good price...

Oh, and the good news is that the collet nose adapter comes off the spindle easily, thus making the machine 5 pounds lighter, and that much easier to get down your stairs

I guess my point is that there's nothing about the spindle tooling aspects of the EE that are disadvantageous. Size and weight? 'nother story...

 

[Rothrandir]

What exactly are you looking to do with this machine? That will be the biggest factor in what you get. Are you looking to do 1-2pc runs, a couple dozen pieces, hundreds or thousands?

I don't know what you're looking to do or what your experience is, and I'm not trying to second guess what you're trying to do, but a lot of people think that a CNC is a magic box and will automatically make life easy and will do everything they need it to do, and that really isn't the case.
It's hard to know what to suggest without knowing what you're hoping to accomplish.

 

[cmacclel]

I would love to get a C-Axis. The GT-75 has a Air spindle C-axis correct? If so is it powerful enough? No problem with light cuts in aluminum or brass but can it handle harder materials? Your best bet I also would think would be 2 seperate machines. Good luck finding a CNC lathe with a 7.5hp and under spindle. There are not many out there. What lathe are you looking for a slant bed production style?


Mac

 

[jhanko]

For starters, I will be making parts in batches of 100. Examples of the types of parts I'll be making are in the pics below. I will be working strictly with titanium in the .5"-1" range.

I'm not sure if the GT-75 is strong enough. I still haven't got a straight answer from Omniturn. I will be calling them again tomorrow. The Haas salesman told me that their OL-1 lathe will not handle the job, and it is a similar class/power/weight as the GT-75. There's quite a few CNC lathes in the 7.5 hp range. Finding them used at a fair price is what I'm struggling with. I've got my eye on a Haas GT-10 and a Mazak Quickturn 6T. Both of these are 7.5 hp tanks that will easily turn what I need, but no c-axis or live tools. I'd have to get a small mill with a 4th axis for the 2nd ops.