Lower grade titanium coming on the market?

[Haz]

There appears to be a flood of Titanium lights coming onto the market, at much lower prices than we are accustom to in the past. Questions are starting to be raised about the quality of these material, given that titanium lights are being sold at prices we normally only see on aluminium lights.

Speculations about China making titanium alloys with less titanium has arisen due to released specifications of certain lights appear 'heavier' than one would expect given the material that is being used.

Some fear the quality is not the same, given that the alloy may not be as pure compared to some more expensive lights being sold.

Are these concerns people are having about the strength, rust resistant, weight valid?, or not significant enough to warrant any concern?

I don't know much about Titanium, but i would think Ti alloy will have to have a minimum volume of Titanium in them to be allowed to be called Titanium. Is there any point at which the name can no longer be used?

 

[Milling_And_Grinding]

I don't believe there are any set "values" for what the composition of a Titanium alloy would be. I sure hope there isn't an influx of some sort of lower grade titanium being used in something that demands a very high quality composition of titanium be used, but I think concern over its strength, etc. for use in flashlights isn't very warranted.

I know wikipedia isn't the best source, but just for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

 

[Marduke]

An alloy is named by the highest percentage constituent component.

 

[RocketTomato]

Actually one of the higher quality commonly used grades, Ti 6Al-4V, is only 90% Titanium. The handy naming system tell us that the remaining 10% consists of 6% Aluminum and 4% Vanadium. It also has a slightly lower density then pure Ti so a light made of pure Ti light would be heavier.

A company producing Ti lights (even in a limited quantity of say 500) can do it much cheaper then a custom light maker can.

 

[Sgt. LED]

As long as it doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and is about as strong as steel (or at least tougher than aluminum) then bring on the cheap stuff!

Why not, I mean as long as it's disclosed to us and reflected in the price. :thumbsup:

 

[compasillo]

There appears to be a flood of Titanium lights coming onto the market, at much lower prices than we are accustom to in the past. Questions are starting to be raised about the quality of these material, given that titanium lights are being sold at prices we normally only see on aluminium lights.

Speculations about China making titanium alloys with less titanium has arisen due to released specifications of certain lights appear 'heavier' than one would expect given the material that is being used.

Some fear the quality is not the same, given that the alloy may not be as pure compared to some more expensive lights being sold.

Are these concerns people are having about the strength, rust resistant, weight valid?, or not significant enough to warrant any concern?

I don't know much about Titanium, but i would think Ti alloy will have to have a minimum volume of Titanium in them to be allowed to be called Titanium. Is there any point at which the name can no longer be used?

I started this question at the Battery Junction threads announcing their new Titanium Innovations IlluminaTi AAA flashlight and Ti Olight AAA (ITP). There was something wrong about the weight of the flashlights that called my attention so I was asking for some clarifying info. That's all.
All I wanted to know is "what do am I purchasing?"... a very simple question since we all are consumers and like to read every product tag about composition, ingredients, etc. So, are flashlights out of this consumer behaviour/rules? I honestly think it should not.

I don't want to bring anybody's expectations down but info doesn't ever hurt, IMO

 

[compasillo]

As long as it doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and is about as strong as steel (or at least tougher than aluminum) then bring on the cheap stuff!

Why not, I mean as long as it's disclosed to us and reflected in the price. :thumbsup:

I agree with you. Improvements are always welcome, concerning prices and features. The thing is that these flashlights are heavier (and more expensive) than SS ???, at least that's the data from the dealer. Typo? mysterious alloy?

 

[compasillo]

Actually one of the higher quality commonly used grades, Ti 6Al-4V, is only 90% Titanium. The handy naming system tell us that the remaining 10% consists of 6% Aluminum and 4% Vanadium. It also has a slightly lower density then pure Ti so a light made of pure Ti light would be heavier.

Only 90% Ti is what a standard alloy has. Ti6Al4V is included in the group named Grade 5, commonly used in surgery, piercing, glasses, and an infinity of items denominated under a "titanium made of" tag. A pure commercial Titanium alloy has a 99% Ti (Grade 2) and it's for heavy duty stuff (higher price). I don't expect a pure Titanium alloy in these flashlights.
Regarding the slight difference in density between a pure and a standard alloy it would be as small as it never would explain such a big difference in weight and even much less in price.

Whatever it was the alloy, I'll end purchasing it if I like the flashlight. that's for sure

 

[Rothrandir]

The way I see it, it's kind of a complicated issue in flashlights.

The majority of people buying titanium flashlights do so because of it's perceived uniqueness or coolness. Titanium can be considered "overkill" for a flashlight in most (but not all) applications. In fact some might argue that titanium is an inferior material for some flashlight applications.

That being the case, it is ultimately up to the buyer to determine if cheaper titanium is beneficial or detrimental. I would personally be of the opinion that under any circumstance a cheaper material is inferior, because if A: you need the unique properties of titanium in your light, a cheaper alloy will not perform as well, or even B: you bought a titanium light simply because it's titanium, you're not getting the premium product that you're after...

Personally, whenever I make something I always use the best quality domestically produced materials I can get, even if that means ordering from more expensive vendors to get the better stuff. On items like the keychain pens I make, they are made out of 6AL4V titanium and 316 stainless. Do the products demand these better, more expensive and harder to work with materials to function? No, I just believe in doing things right.

 

[compasillo]

I agree with you Rothrandir. As far as it may concerns to me I'm not a fan of Ti in flashlights, at least not yet.
I think this thread started regarding the other thread's discussion on the possibility that an announced Ti flashlight was not high grade Ti made of... (based on the data given by the dealer).
Once the dealer has clarified the things, speculations make no more sense.

 

[easilyled]

The dealer has clarified that the light is made of grade 2 (or commercially pure) Titanium in the thread in question.

 

[octaf]

Generally speaking, you get what you paid for, but not always.

I've done some little things with Ti's and I dealt with US made, Japan made and China made Grade 2 Ti's & Grade 5 Ti's, so far.

Actually there is not much difference in price, and it's not easy for consumers to distinguish the difference in quality, although US & Japan made Ti's considered to be superior to China made Ti's up to now.

Here's what I heard from the dealers; Within a couple of years, the majority of Ti materials in the market will be replaced by China made Ti's, and actually the gap in quality difference is getting thinner.

 

[easilyled]

Generally speaking, you get what you paid for, but not always.

I've done some little things with Ti's and I dealt with US made, Japan made and China made Grade 2 Ti's & Grade 5 Ti's, so far.

Actually there is not much difference in price, and it's not easy for consumers to distinguish the difference in quality, although US & Japan made Ti's considered to be superior to China made Ti's up to now.

Here's what I heard from the dealers; Within a couple of years, the majority of Ti materials in the market will be replaced by China made Ti's, and actually the gap in quality difference is getting thinner.

octaf, you seem to be an expert in this field, so I'd be very interested to know in what way Chinese produced Titanium stock is not of the same quality as that from the US.

Does it have impurities in it and does this affect the ability to produce a nice finish?

 

[fyrstormer]

As long as it doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and is about as strong as steel (or at least tougher than aluminum) then bring on the cheap stuff!

Why not, I mean as long as it's disclosed to us and reflected in the price. :thumbsup:

Titanium alloys with more aluminum and vanadium would actually be ideal for flashlights, because both aluminum and vanadium have substantially better electrical and thermal conductivity than titanium has. In addition, the Mohs hardness (scratch test) of vanadium is almost as high as titanium; I couldn't find a Vickers hardness (impact test) for vanadium, but from the crystalline structure it looks pretty damn hard.

I mean, it's certainly nice to know my McGizmos could be run over by a dump truck with no ill effects, but let's be honest -- that is almost certainly never going to happen, and if a softer, lighter, more-conductive alloy that doesn't sacrifice too much strength is available, then why not use it?

 

[KuKu427]

Correct me if I am wrong. CP Ti is much easier to machine than 6/4 Ti right? I guess that could account for a lot of the difference in prices. Some machine shops are willing to do CP Ti parts, but not many would venture into 6/4 Ti.

 

[octaf]

octaf, you seem to be an expert in this field, so I'd be very interested to know in what way Chinese produced Titanium stock is not of the same quality as that from the US.

Does it have impurities in it and does this affect the ability to produce a nice finish?

Hi, easilyled.

No, I'm not an expert on this.
I haven't done the scientific tests myself, either.
I'm talking about the general perception that consumers have in their mind.


I have dealt with 6-4 Ti's from different country and manufacturers.
I've done some tests with Rockwell C scale. Their general ranges are 32 ~ 35. In general, pricy ones tends to be in higher numbers in that scale. And I often heard machinists saying that they feel the difference when they machine the 6-4 Ti's from different sources.

 

[octaf]

Correct me if I am wrong. CP Ti is much easier to machine than 6/4 Ti right? I guess that could account for a lot of the difference in prices. Some machine shops are willing to do CP Ti parts, but not many would venture into 6/4 Ti.

You're definitely right, Ku !

6-4 Ti's are much harder to machine than CP Ti's. Big difference.

 

[Marduke]

Hi, easilyled.

No, I'm not an expert on this.
I haven't done the scientific tests myself, either.
I'm talking about the general perception that consumers have in their mind.


I have dealt with 6-4 Ti's from different country and manufacturers.
I've done some tests with Rockwell C scale. Their general ranges are 32 ~ 35. In general, pricy ones tends to be in higher numbers in that scale. And I often heard machinists saying that they feel the difference when they machine the 6-4 Ti's from different sources.

Composition does not take heat treatment into account, which can make a HUGE difference.

 

[octaf]

Composition does not take heat treatment into account, which can make a HUGE difference.

Please, be more specific about this.
I was talking about the bare 6-4 Ti's, not the heat treated ones. :thinking:

 

[Marduke]

Please, be more specific about this.
I was talking about the bare 6-4 Ti's, not the heat treated ones. :thinking:

Just saying "Ti 6AL-4V" doesn't tell you specifically what the actual mechanical properties are.

STA
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=b350a789eda946c6b86a3e4d3c577b39

STA Bar
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=f87a4a1c92d34da2b1ecde4e4dec7a73

Annealed
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=a0655d261898456b958e5f825ae85390

Annealed Bar
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=10d463eb3d3d4ff48fc57e0ad1037434

ELI Annealed
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=c4297fb8f1094da189732c224e3be1ed

As you can see, are all "6AL-4V", but no two have the same mechanical properties.