Making the Perfect EDC light a reality! ? ! ?

cat

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Robar metal coating... alternatives to the HA3 which is not at all as tough as Surefire's milspec HA3 would be interesting.

PS: I'd not thought of G-10 in a tubular form, around a flashlight. Also, I like SF's Nitrolon.
 
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Muppet

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Well, what if you started simple: one head, let's say P60 if there's no better ideas, and three tubes - CR123, AA, 2AA, and a single tail clickie. Publish the specs, and see if other people come along with other bits, or how the market treats it.

I still think the key is collaboration between different specialist manufacturers around a single standard so that, for instance, the people who just want to do electronics can specialize in that, and the people who want to produce really high finish bodies can do that too, and the customers can spend their dollars on what they want, while we all benefit from the wider market.
 

yaesumofo

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Type III anodizing doesn't make the light tough. Only the finish.
Start with 7075 instead of Ti or 6061. Design the light with nice thick walls.
an upgradable emitter/driver package would be ok. IMHO we are nearing the maximum efficiency/output abilities of current battery technology.
That said light with a continuously variable output would be best.

These is an interesting collaboration between ARC McGizmo at the moment on the new ARC LS PD flashlight.

The NEW HDS light ..a twisty may be for some the perfect light.

One thing which history ll tell you is that no matter how many people say Oh boy and I will buy one...many will not because no light has enough or the right features to please everybody.
Keep in Mind that for some people out here that a FENIX is the perfect EDC flashlight..Go figure. Don't ask me because I don't understand...
Yaesumofo




Very good point. You want to start with a quality light that will last (super tough HA) and will want to carry and upgrade over time. The Pill should be upgradeable, but not mandatory. If vf stays the same and you like the UI, then just upgrade the LED. If someone (even a third party) makes a new Pill with a new UI you like, then maybe just upgrade the Pill itself.

A simple Surefire L1/L2/A2 UI would be the most basic if switch based, while a two-stage switched by a very quick tap or double tap, with level memory, would be a very desirable and simple 2-stage UI. I have been thinking about that one for a while and think it would be just about perfect with a momentary clicky.


I agree that the "fits all batteries" concept would be great, but I would definitely be OK with the 1.2-4.3V compatibility since I generally think of an EDC as a small single cell light. That easily leaves room for a 2AA option.
 

crocodilo

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Keep in Mind that for some people out here that a FENIX is the perfect EDC flashlight..Go figure. Don't ask me because I don't understand...
Yaesumofo


Keep in mind that for lots of people, performance and affordability are the key elements for EDC. I'm much more comfortable abusing a 50 USD light than carrying a 300 USD piece. Same for knifes, especially considering that those 50 USD will cater for more than adequate performance for EDC duties, as opposed to higher special requirements (military, LE, etc.)

Fenix provides a vey balanced article for EDC, IMO. Look at the P1/P1D series, for instance: lots of light, small size, low price, nice features. Do you really need much more?
 

Jaygnar

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I'd say perfect edc for me is -
Body- Thick enough to grip but not a pocket full of metal. I'm thinking novatac size.
Battery- Single AA
Lumens / Modes- Twist the bezel for 2 lumen red led on off. Click the tail for 10 lumen low and again for max output.
Switches- Forward clicky and built like a tank. Recessed so it can tailstand. Bezel twist for red.
Aggressive Knurling
UCL
Ha-III
That'll do. Call the factory.:popcorn:
 

yaesumofo

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You have made my point for me.
With the availability of lights such as the fenix with it's wide variety of models to choose from ..The concept of "making the perfect edc a reality" as is the attempt of this thread. Totally redundant.
The effort required to make say 200 "perfect edc's" is a huge undertaking. Ask anybody who has attempted to do it. It is all but impossible to do at the same price points which Fenix is selling their lights for. The top Fenix is about $100.00
One of say 200 "perfect edc flashlights will never cost less than $250.oo and likely much more.


Attempting the perfect edc under these conditions is very difficult.

Some people may consider the Lunasol to be the ultimate edc. at a cost of what ???$500.00
Some consider any fenix with a q5 to be the ultimate edc at a cost of what $65.00
The point is that the perfect edc is a very subjective notion. to get enough people to create such a light by committee is all but impossible.

There are those of us who love custom flashlights.
I have absolutely no problem editing any of my flashlights. some see more service than others. the amount of use one of my lights sees has little to do with the cost and everything to to with the lights utility in the field.
The two lights which see the most use are my novatac and my PD-s mizer. one is a 120.00 light the novatac and I consider it to be about as close to the perfect EDC as I have found. the other cost around 300.00

Both get used and abused. they are tools to me. I also have a couple of fenix lights. they are no less tools as the novatak. I just use them differently.

See what I mean totally subjective.
My question is this why in the world would you buy a $300.00 knife or flashlight which by nature is an extremely high quality tool designed for a lifetime of use I mean spend $300 on something that you aren't even going to get any use out of. You are going to take it out on Sundays and wipe the fingerprints off of it once a week?
What a waste IMHO.
I am sure the creator of either a 300.00 flashlight or knife would agree. All of the tool makers I know want their tools to be used not worshiped.


That is what is so great about this whole thing.

I have lights which come from several parts of the spectrum from the lowest on up. Most see use.
The ones that do not don't get used because they are redundant not because they are in a showcase.

In retrospect I have bought many lights which just do not fit into my usage needs. I hate the idea of selling my lights so I hang on to them.
I am sure many of them would be better off being in the hands of somebody who would use them.


I have cut way back since I have settled on a lineup of flashlights which work for me. It cost me 1000's to get here but I am happy with what I edc today...Very happy.
My next light will likely be the new HDS edc flashlight.
That is where my flashlight head is at ..total utility. Not total worship.
Yaesumofo




Keep in mind that for lots of people, performance and affordability are the key elements for EDC. I'm much more comfortable abusing a 50 USD light than carrying a 300 USD piece. Same for knifes, especially considering that those 50 USD will cater for more than adequate performance for EDC duties, as opposed to higher special requirements (military, LE, etc.)

  1. Fenix provides a very balanced article for EDC, IMO. Look at the P1/P1D series, for instance: lots of light, small size, low price, nice features. Do you really need much more?
 

LG&M

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I think we can all agree their is no perfect EDC light not for any one person let alone everybody. Having said that it doesnt mean we can't try. I don't want to see this idea die. Why can't we start small maybe only one battery tube & head and lego it from their?
 

KevinL

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I think we can all agree their is no perfect EDC light not for any one person let alone everybody. Having said that it doesnt mean we can't try. I don't want to see this idea die. Why can't we start small maybe only one battery tube & head and lego it from their?

That's the point.. we need to get the ball rolling even though it won't fit everybody from the get go. Over time, perhaps it will! But that's only after the system reaches critical mass and there are modders/manufacturers willing to build for it.
 

Blindasabat

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... we need to get the ball rolling even though it won't fit everybody from the get go. Over time, perhaps it will!
MAYBE... the cheapest and easiest thing to do would be to pick a small and easily modded existing light with some decent quality and certain qualities and that may lend itself to switch, emitter, and driver mods.

The Lightflux LF1 and Rexlight are both easily modded and as far as I know, not glued (mine wasn't). The LF1 even had a momentary switch. Get somebody like Nekomane or Leef to make CR123 tubes like Nekomane did for Fenix L1P and L1T.

Many people have Peak CR123 lights. They can function as a twisty or with keychain bodies, with the Peak momentary switch. With new heads, they could be made to incorporate either HDS, Fenix, or ...any other UI you want. (That is the idea, right?)

The idea of modding existing lights can be pushed to a much bigger scale without too much effort, certainly less than making an entirely new light. After a while, we'll be making new bodies and new tail switches too.

Well, the dream is nice.
 
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yaesumofo

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Why not try to get FENIX to make a small customized run of "perfect EDC" flashlights. They could do it for less than $75 easily.
They are in a good position to do exactly that. They have acces to the most current component sets available.
They do small runs of lights on occasion.
The hardest thing to do will be deciding exactly what feature set/component set the "perfect EDC" needs. Once that is figured out go to Fenix and ask them how many they would need to make for a special of lights.
They could include different switches, bodies, heads, reflectors, emitters, drivers.

So exactly what is the perfect edc? Lets got to brass tacks. What is the bottom line?

Emitter?
Driver? Drive level, Functions,?
Body?
Single cell?
Multiple cell?
reflector size? finish?
Body finish
Switch type?

What is amazing to me is this thread is 110 messages old and it is no closer to defining a "perfect EDC" than post one.
Maybe try a poll or something.
Yaesumofo
 

LG&M

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Not a bad idea. Maybe if we looked at the most popular lights sold at the more popular sites we could get a better idea of what would appeal to the most people.
 
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BentHeadTX

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So exactly what is the perfect edc? Lets got to brass tacks. What is the bottom line?

Emitter?
Driver? Drive level, Functions,?
Body?
Single cell?
Multiple cell?
reflector size? finish?
Body finish
Switch type?

What is amazing to me is this thread is 110 messages old and it is no closer to defining a "perfect EDC" than post one.
Maybe try a poll or something.
Yaesumofo

I'll bite!

Emitter Rebel 120 for low forward voltage and output

Variable output by turning head 0.3 to 100 lumens at LED

Body HA-III 7075 aluminum with 3X thicker walls than L0D

One Eneloop AAA cell included

Switching can be twisty or clickie as an optional tail.

Reflector can be smooth or OP as specified.

Pot the electronics and use a stout positive connection that is gold plated.

Add thermal protection to the electronics since 0.8 watts of drive to the Rebel 120 still generates heat. The Eneloop will be discharging at 800mA (about a watt or 1C) The electronics would have to be about 85% efficient which might not be reachable but I can dream.

Make one with a single AA with the same specs although the max variable output can hit 150 lumens. Add a 2AA tailpack for it to hit 220 lumens at the LED.

For now, I am happy with my L0D Q4 as it works very well on my keychain and performs EDC duties well.
 

Delij

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Why not try to get FENIX to make a small customized run of "perfect EDC" flashlights. They could do it for less than $75 easily.

That is a possibility. But I was tying to do something with American companies for some obvious reasons I had already explained.

The advantage of Fenix would be a 'one stop shopping" type deal, while the companies I talked with here were not...for example, bodies made by one supplier, emitters obviously are made by a company like Cree, so that's no problem. Having the electronics designed turned out to be a very wide assortment of possibilities from using existing stuff to making something from scratch....which was sort of good news....it seemed easier and less expensive than I ever would have guessed.

The most expensive component to manufacture turned out to be (not surprisingly) the bodies. Partly because of the cost of design, and partly because i had specified a few things that would facilitate the interchangeability of the modular light I had in mind...the way the threading was to be done, the sizing so that different modules would all fit together. Even the kinds of threading....which was something I didn't think of. Not only the size, but the shape (some threads are "pointy" like a wood screw, some have a flat profile like on a propane tank connector, etc.).




What is amazing to me is this thread is 110 messages old and it is no closer to defining a "perfect EDC" than post one.
Maybe try a poll or something.
Yaesumofo
While I can see how you feel that way, I respectfully disagree. Maybe it's partly due to some of my preconceptions being met, but I gathered from a lot of the input certain consistencies.

While it's true that there's no "one size fits all" PERFECT for EVERYONE light (or virtually anything for that matter), the vast majority seem to want something pretty much along the same lines.

I would say that something like the Novatec P120 comes close to being an example of a light the majority of people would think of as "ideal" in general terms. I've never had a Novatec, but have heard plenty about them and I'd agree it seems to meet most people's general idea of a practical EDC light. So how to improve on that general concept...it does not seem like a huge challenge, it's just about keeping costs down and a design that can be easily upgraded/updated at a minimal expense. And basically that revolves around the modular concept, which too is not unique, just would be unique if I can accomplish all that at a price point that would make the light accessible to the majority of enthusiasts, not just those who could take a 'flier' on something like the Surefire Titan.

I'll get it done. Or at least I'll get the design done to the degree i can give enough information (specs, illustrations, etc.) to get an idea of what kind of demand the light would generate.....and of course that would also enable me to take any criticism and evaluate whatever enthusiasm and weigh it all in an attempt to "fine tune" the design.

Lots of very informed and imaginative people here to listen to (like yourself for instance).

No, design by committee gets you a horse that looks like a camel (as the old expression goes...or something close to that :confused:). But good input is always an asset. And since I have no desire to mass market such a light....to sell to Walmart and Target and sporting good stores, that will be a double edged sword. It will probably keep the price a bit higher, but it will also make better QC possible and also allow us to not lose our way.

And making a light for enthusiasts is easier than trying to compete for shelf space with Maglite and such....which inevitably leads to either cutting corners (which I would refuse to do and never have....I've been in business for myself since 1973 and have never done it and wont start now), and not trying to produce something that the military and LE will necessarily compare to Surefire (for example) will help to keep costs under control.

While I'd expect the light to last a lifetime and be considered to be thought of as "bomb-proof", I don't think it's necessary for the average CFP enthusiast to need a pocket light that will need to stand up to being mounted on a .50 caliber machine gun and run forever on one cell on the South Pole and in a blazing fire or in the vacuum of space...... (Or whatever specs the govt. would dictate that we don't require and that would add unneeded expense).

My expectations at this point....

...........easily kept 'state of the art' with upgrades made as easy as possible (modular being part of that, and modular also giving greater flexibility to a single 'kit' rather than requiring a whole slew of seperate lights,)

...........basic size (with standard head) easily and comfortably carried in a pocket. Any knurling and or crenalted bezels not aggressive enough to tear clothing...just enough to be effective. Small head bezel not for striking...just at the most to see if light is on if left on with head down.

...........User friendly interface. Tail-stand if possible. Forward clicky or tactical type twisty with instant on push-button (like Inova X series,)

...........USEFULL modes (range of intensity).

...........Top quality fit and finish ....Plus real quality control, each light inspected and tested. I am often shocked at what sometimes gets from the manufacturer to the end user because 10 seconds is too much time (apparently) to check out a $100 or more item. I often hear of (and have seen) semi-cusom made 1911 pistols that wont feed or eject. Absolutely no excuse in my book for that kind of "slipping through the cracks". Same with mass produced and reliable handguns like Glock, Springfield XD, virtually any 1911, even Sigs...rare, but too common still.

...........Electronic circuitry that would be compatible with as many different kinds of cells as possible (for example, alkaline, lithium, rechargeable, Possible to have different kinds of rechargeable? - I don't know).

...........include adapters to enable different size cells to fit in same battery tube (that would seem inexpensive and easy). plus regulation that would detect and be compatible with different power sources (Again, I don't know what is and is not possible).

............ergonomics and materials (HA III anodized? Robar? Stainless? replaceable rubber outer sleeves? Duracoat? Hard Chrome? etc...whatever is most preferred and reasonable to do without adding unreasonable expense)

.............run time and output (of course).

.............programmable? (Certainly at least "last mode memory' or 'fist mode selectable'

............aesthetics.

............waterproof

............best quality lens and reflectors (this I discussed with suppliers already and cannot believe how little difference there is in cost between the cheapest and most expensive refkectors. Lenses are a different story, but quality AR glass is not expensive. Cheap plastic that easily scratches makes no sense on any level. Why does Maglite use plastic????).

............Tritium and/or GITD elements (while tritium tubes sell at high retail premiums in items such as weapon night sights, they are really not expensive relative to the price of a light and should not have much of an impact on a final price...I would think that the usefullness would justify the cost to most buyers).

............full and transferable guarantee and owner-friendly customer service.

............removeable and reversible pocket clip

............facilitates a lanyard

............practical beam pattern that's suitable for pocket size lights.

And from there, who knows? Some of what I listed may not be feasible while keeping the light relatively affordable, but so far i can't see any one feature standing out as being too much of a challenge. I realize I have to be willing to make possible compromises, but that is very different than "cutting corners".


And of course I'd expect to modify my expectations depending on input from CFP people and likely those involved in the actual design and build process.





Peace,
D.
 
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pipspeak

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I'd imagine that for many people there already exists a EDC light that is 90-95% perfect so perhaps the best strategy would be to hassle current manufacturers to make a few minor modifications or improve customization options.

My perfect setup would be very similar to the Lumapower M3... three bodies, two heads, two switches, fairly simply UI, nicely made, and you can get the whole shebang, including the turbohead, for $70. The only thing that kinda sucks is the emitter is an older bin and is not apparently designed for easy replacement. If LP sold the latest D-mini Q5 emitter (and board) for the M3, for example, then I would be 100% satisfied. Otherwise I'm at 90% (until I find someone to mod it with a Q5 for me).
 

LG&M

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Delij, I am very interested in what you are working on. Glad to see their is a chance of it coming to together. The outline you stated above looks good. Please keep us updated.
 

KevinL

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That is a possibility. But I was tying to do something with American companies for some obvious reasons I had already explained.

The advantage of Fenix would be a 'one stop shopping" type deal, while the companies I talked with here were not...for example, bodies made by one supplier, emitters obviously are made by a company like Cree, so that's no problem. Having the electronics designed turned out to be a very wide assortment of possibilities from using existing stuff to making something from scratch....which was sort of good news....it seemed easier and less expensive than I ever would have guessed.

The most expensive component to manufacture turned out to be (not surprisingly) the bodies. Partly because of the cost of design, and partly because i had specified a few things that would facilitate the interchangeability of the modular light I had in mind...the way the threading was to be done, the sizing so that different modules would all fit together. Even the kinds of threading....which was something I didn't think of. Not only the size, but the shape (some threads are "pointy" like a wood screw, some have a flat profile like on a propane tank connector, etc.).





While I can see how you feel that way, I respectfully disagree. Maybe it's partly due to some of my preconceptions being met, but I gathered from a lot of the input certain consistencies.

While it's true that there's no "one size fits all" PERFECT for EVERYONE light (or virtually anything for that matter), the vast majority seem to want something pretty much along the same lines.

I would say that something like the Novatec P120 comes close to being an example of a light the majority of people would think of as "ideal" in general terms. I've never had a Novatec, but have heard plenty about them and I'd agree it seems to meet most people's general idea of a practical EDC light. So how to improve on that general concept...it does not seem like a huge challenge, it's just about keeping costs down and a design that can be easily upgraded/updated at a minimal expense. And basically that revolves around the modular concept, which too is not unique, just would be unique if I can accomplish all that at a price point that would make the light accessible to the majority of enthusiasts, not just those who could take a 'flier' on something like the Surefire Titan.

I'll get it done. Or at least I'll get the design done to the degree i can give enough information (specs, illustrations, etc.) to get an idea of what kind of demand the light would generate.....and of course that would also enable me to take any criticism and evaluate whatever enthusiasm and weigh it all in an attempt to "fine tune" the design.

Lots of very informed and imaginative people here to listen to (like yourself for instance).

No, design by committee gets you a horse that looks like a camel (as the old expression goes...or something close to that :confused:). But good input is always an asset. And since I have no desire to mass market such a light....to sell to Walmart and Target and sporting good stores, that will be a double edged sword. It will probably keep the price a bit higher, but it will also make better QC possible and also allow us to not lose our way.

And making a light for enthusiasts is easier than trying to compete for shelf space with Maglite and such....which inevitably leads to either cutting corners (which I would refuse to do and never have....I've been in business for myself since 1973 and have never done it and wont start now), and not trying to produce something that the military and LE will necessarily compare to Surefire (for example) will help to keep costs under control.

While I'd expect the light to last a lifetime and be considered to be thought of as "bomb-proof", I don't think it's necessary for the average CFP enthusiast to need a pocket light that will need to stand up to being mounted on a .50 caliber machine gun and run forever on one cell on the South Pole and in a blazing fire or in the vacuum of space...... (Or whatever specs the govt. would dictate that we don't require and that would add unneeded expense).

My expectations at this point....

...........easily kept 'state of the art' with upgrades made as easy as possible (modular being part of that, and modular also giving greater flexibility to a single 'kit' rather than requiring a whole slew of seperate lights,)

...........basic size (with standard head) easily and comfortably carried in a pocket. Any knurling and or crenalted bezels not aggressive enough to tear clothing...just enough to be effective. Small head bezel not for striking...just at the most to see if light is on if left on with head down.

...........User friendly interface. Tail-stand if possible. Forward clicky or tactical type twisty with instant on push-button (like Inova X series,)

...........USEFULL modes (range of intensity).

...........Top quality fit and finish ....Plus real quality control, each light inspected and tested. I am often shocked at what sometimes gets from the manufacturer to the end user because 10 seconds is too much time (apparently) to check out a $100 or more item. I often hear of (and have seen) semi-cusom made 1911 pistols that wont feed or eject. Absolutely no excuse in my book for that kind of "slipping through the cracks". Same with mass produced and reliable handguns like Glock, Springfield XD, virtually any 1911, even Sigs...rare, but too common still.

...........Electronic circuitry that would be compatible with as many different kinds of cells as possible (for example, alkaline, lithium, rechargeable, Possible to have different kinds of rechargeable? - I don't know).

...........include adapters to enable different size cells to fit in same battery tube (that would seem inexpensive and easy). plus regulation that would detect and be compatible with different power sources (Again, I don't know what is and is not possible).

............ergonomics and materials (HA III anodized? Robar? Stainless? replaceable rubber outer sleeves? Duracoat? Hard Chrome? etc...whatever is most preferred and reasonable to do without adding unreasonable expense)

.............run time and output (of course).

.............programmable? (Certainly at least "last mode memory' or 'fist mode selectable'

............aesthetics.

............waterproof

............best quality lens and reflectors (this I discussed with suppliers already and cannot believe how little difference there is in cost between the cheapest and most expensive refkectors. Lenses are a different story, but quality AR glass is not expensive. Cheap plastic that easily scratches makes no sense on any level. Why does Maglite use plastic????).

............Tritium and/or GITD elements (while tritium tubes sell at high retail premiums in items such as weapon night sights, they are really not expensive relative to the price of a light and should not have much of an impact on a final price...I would think that the usefullness would justify the cost to most buyers).

............full and transferable guarantee and owner-friendly customer service.

............removeable and reversible pocket clip

............facilitates a lanyard

............practical beam pattern that's suitable for pocket size lights.

And from there, who knows? Some of what I listed may not be feasible while keeping the light relatively affordable, but so far i can't see any one feature standing out as being too much of a challenge. I realize I have to be willing to make possible compromises, but that is very different than "cutting corners".


And of course I'd expect to modify my expectations depending on input from CFP people and likely those involved in the actual design and build process.





Peace,
D.


You got it! Now there's only one issue left: let's do it :)
 
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