Makita 18V LXT batteries....

[bwDraco]

Sorry if I'm reviving an old thread, but I use DeWalt 20V Max and can definitely state that DeWalt does perform cell balancing on their batteries. With Makita pushing lightning-fast (9 amp!) charging speeds, it's a bit disappointing to find that their battery control circuitry draws on only one cell, causing the whole pack to fail prematurely if it isn't used regularly. It's also an odd decision to disable the entire pack on three failed charge attempts—I understand the safety concern, but this isn't necessary if the battery can simply communicate to the tool/charger that one or more cells have failed. Unfortunately, this seems to be necessary because not all Makita tools can digitally communicate with their batteries, and not all batteries can communicate with the tool; older Makita 18V LXT tools and batteries without a star mark don't have the company's "STAR Protection Computer Controls". (I'm not here to bash Makita—they make great tools, but are a bit backwards in their battery design. Then again, they were the first to introduce an all-lithium 18V battery platform. The 18V LXT platform dates back to 2005, so their initial implementation was apparently missing the digital communication features new batteries and tools have.)

The DeWalt battery has B+ and B- connectors where the main 18-20V output is supplied to the tool. However, there's a total of eight connectors on the battery, four of which are specifically for cell balancing. Along with the B+ and B- connectors, the C1-C4 contacts are hooked up to the individual cells: from negative to positive, B- to C1 for the first cell, C1 to C2 for the second cell, C2 to C3 for the third cell, C3 to C4 for the fourth cell, and C4 to B+ for the fifth cell. They are hooked up internally in series and all of the pins are present on the charger, which performs the cell balancing. Fresh off the charger, each cell should have a voltage of about 4.1 V for a total voltage of 20.5 V. (Side note: The remaining two pins on the battery are marked ID and TH. I'm guessing ID is to identify the battery type, perhaps for communication between the battery and tool/charger to distinguish between 20V Max and the nearly electrically compatible 12V Max, which might simply not have pins for C3 and C4. The TH contact is probably for temperature sensing. My DeWalt DCD790 drill has pins for B+, B-, TH, and C3, but I'm don't know why it needs the C3 contact.)

What I'd like to know is whether Makita has these cell-balancing contacts on their 18V LXT batteries. Can someone check one of their Makita batteries to find out?

--DragonLord

Edit: So I read through the thread again, and it seems that the newer batteries and chargers do have cell-balancing connectors. If only Makita would fix the single-cell discharge issue...

I use quite a number of Sanyo UR18650SAX. Only 1300mAh, but 25A continuous rated and cheap, they make good robust high performance RC-type packs for low cost. Sanyo also has the successor WX and RX, 1500 and 2000mAh 20A cont.

I believe DeWalt uses the Sanyo (now Panasonic) UR18650RX cells for their 20V Max XR 2 Ah and 4 Ah batteries. These cells are rated for 22 A maximum discharge rate, so the DCB204 premium 4 Ah battery (which has 10 cells in 5S2P) can reliably supply up to 44 amps of current. Not sure what the upcoming DCB205 5 Ah batteries will use, though.

 

[ddwaner]

I have 2 BL1830 Battery packs that after 2 years of easy use both went bad within 2 weeks time. I couldn't get the packs open with the screws so I drilled both to open them. In both packs duel battery cell set #4 (4th one in from +) were BAD. I tried to charge even individual cells and found from about 0VDC they would charge to about 3 volts then drop and heat! I removed 2 good battery's from one of the packs to make 1 and did. I slow balanced all 5 pairs 2 places past the (3.012) and sometimes 3 past the (.), of the low battery set voltage and tried to charge with the Makita charger made for the tool set which was in my case a Impact driver and Drill set. I had already passed the 3 fails light so again I got the same fail'd battery condition. The battery's I have were made from the positive terminal on the board, 3 sets of 2 cells then were tapped to the circuit board and from there 2 sets of 2 cells to the negitive terminal to the board. I charged the battery pack with a Lithium Ion charger but had a limitation of 3 or 2 cells so I charged the 3 cell set first then the 2 cell set till the charger show'd ready to use, the balance was ok across individual cell sets and found that the battery packs ran the tools ok. I intend to buy a iMax B6 OEM Battery Balance Charger for 1-6 cell Lipo, Li-io, LiFe from Amazon for about $22.08 and add a 5 cell balance terminal to the battery.

I have been flying RC helicopters and airplanes since long before battery's were considered even possible, I started using battery's to fly when the LiPo's were starting. The way these packs were made is NOT my idea of how to charge this type of battery pack. The cells should have 5 tap points and be balanced in individual pairs during the charge. The circuit board in these battery packs have a lot of parts on them and even more on the bottom side of the board including 1 very large 30+ legged chip. Looks like Makita has made good tools but kept the weakest link where they could profit the most with an excuse. A new Makita battery at HomeD is about $99.99 and I did buy ( 1 ) and it works. I will probably buy a cheep 18V replacement battery when I buy the charger from Amazon if for no other reason for some replacement battery's for the Makita packs I have.

Makita you :devil:.

 

[iv2013]

Today I tried using my Makita tools but both batteries were drained from not being used over the last 3 months. I put both on the charger and had the red/green flashing lights on the charger. Looked up the info on this forum and decided I would call the local Makita service centre before attempting to make repairs my self. At first they told me that my batteries were defective and that I would have to buy new ones since they were past the 1 year warranty, but when I told them that they had less than 150 charges (as mentioned on this forum) and that Makita should replace them, they told me to bring them in. I went the same day and had them both replaced, no questions asked, free of charge. The guy did put them on a charger to verify that there were indeed less than 150 charges on them.

Just want say thanks for the useful info, this forum has saved a bunch of us from buying new batteries!

p.s. Pretty disappointing that the guy was going to force me to buy new batteries before admitting that Makita replaces all batteries that have had less than 150 charges regardless of warranty. I bet a lot of people get caught on this.

 

[NotMyCupOfTea]

Today I tried using my Makita tools but both batteries were drained from not being used over the last 3 months. I put both on the charger and had the red/green flashing lights on the charger. Looked up the info on this forum and decided I would call the local Makita service centre before attempting to make repairs my self. At first they told me that my batteries were defective and that I would have to buy new ones since they were past the 1 year warranty, but when I told them that they had less than 150 charges (as mentioned on this forum) and that Makita should replace them, they told me to bring them in. I went the same day and had them both replaced, no questions asked, free of charge. The guy did put them on a charger to verify that there were indeed less than 150 charges on them.

Just want say thanks for the useful info, this forum has saved a bunch of us from buying new batteries!

p.s. Pretty disappointing that the guy was going to force me to buy new batteries before admitting that Makita replaces all batteries that have had less than 150 charges regardless of warranty. I bet a lot of people get caught on this.

Today I went to my local Makita service center and the guy said Makita is no longer replacing batteries after he tested my 2 at 37, and 39 charges. This is all so arbitrary to me, is there an official statement by Makita saying it will replace batteries under 150 charges?

Anyway, later I did call Makita direct, and after telling them how disappointed I was they said for me to mail it to them and they'd probably replace the batteries.
Side note: I still have a Makita battery from over 20 years ago, IT STILL CHARGES, doesn't last long, at all, but hey it charges :rock:

 

[delus]

Makita BL-1840 with FOUR amp-hours has been available in the USA for a few months now. $130. It is said to contain 10 of the 2Ah 18650 cells (most likely provided by Sony). Same exact shape and weight as the previous BL1830 3Ah model with the 1.5Ah cells.

Makita BL-1850 with FIVE amp-hours is on the way... I can't find it anywhere that accepts American Dollars. Here is makita australia...http://http://www.makita.com.au/products/lithium-ion/item/bl1850-18v-li-ion-battery

Some questions about tool compatibility are evident, but ToolGuyD has asked Makita UK, and says that the star logo, and/or a yellow plastic part at the battery connector plate, indicates your tool is compatible with the new batteries.
http://toolguyd.com/makita-18v-lxt-5-0ah-battery/

http://toolguyd.com/makita-18v-lxt-tools-and-bl1840-battery-compatibility/

 

[KDM]

Is there a certain test to tell the amount of charge cycles? Does Makita have to perform the test?

 

[delus]

Yes, Makita service centers have a special charger/computer that will read charge cycles and some other info from the battery's chip.

Find your closest authorized service center here. http://www.makita.com/en-us/Modules/Service/ServiceCenters.aspx

 

[jackbombay]

This star identifies the "new" type of battery.
Makita does not mention anything about cell balancing, but looking at clues in this thread, I'm 90% sure that the star means it includes balancing.

Wishful thinking IMO.

Why would they kill their own cash cow? This is Murrica, the stock holders demand profits!



I now have 4 makita batteries that I have opened and re-engineered so they are for sure getting balanced charged with a "hobby charger", they all run like world champions, and I charge them at a 3 amp charge rate instead of 6-9 amps as the factory charger does which in itself is terrible for the batteries.


I have plenty of friends that use makita tools regularly and they still go through batteries same as they ever did despite the introduction of the packs/tools with the stars on them, fwiw.

 

[jackbombay]

There is nothing in the "star battery pack" literature that indicates those packs are balanced charged,

http://www.makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx

 

[Bucks]

Just making sure I am in the correct thread. I have a DC18RA charger for Makita ion 18v batteries. I purchase 2 years ago and I use for home use. Today went to charge battery. Once on charger, it flashes green and then after 15 seconds, turns red and shuts down. Tried 2nd battery, same thing. I tried searching similar problem but found nothing. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[alpg88]

There is nothing in the "star battery pack" literature that indicates those packs are balanced charged,

http://www.makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/LXTAdvantage/StarProtection.aspx

did you really want to find in depth details on consumer aimed publication??? you wont find such details there, but you are not far off, however.

pack soc is monitored by last cell, when it gets fully charged, than charging stops, other cells may overcharge a bit, that is why they get really hot during charging, and thus the fan inside the charger, and gaps between cells, so the air circulates in the pack. we had another thread about it, with detailed pics of the board and pack. when I took mine apart, shrinkwrap was mostly melted, but pack worked just as good as the first day I got it.

 

[ifixthings]

First, I don't do many post to forums just read, read, read and learn, learn learn. But this could help some folks so...


Here is some information on how to possibly reset the charging chip in the Makita 18 Volt 3.0 AH (OLD STYLE) that WORKED FOR ME... Your mileage may very...


If you don't want details and background, skip down to CHARGING TEST.




Some history.


I purchased my Makita 18 Volt LXT 4 tool kit in Nov. 2006. It came with 2 - 3.0 AH batteries. I purchase 1 additional 3.0 battery and 2 - 1.5 AH batteries a few months later. (NOTE: In order to use the 1.5 HA batteries, I had to cut the stop lug off of each tool so that these smaller batteries would work... If you every tried to use a 1.5 AH battery in a tool designed for a 3.0 battery, you know what I'm talking about...)


In 2008, I had 1 of the 3.0 batteries lock up and 1 of the 1.5 lock up. Over the the years I would keep trying to charge them but the Makita DC18SC factory charger refuse to allow these batteries to be charged. To this day, 2 of the 3.0 AH batteries and the 1.5 AH battery are still very usable and are functioning. Since the time of the kit purchase, at least one or more of the tools in the kit are used about every week.


FYI, I have rebuilt many of my Dewalt 18 volt Ni-Cad batteries using new Ryobi 18 Ni-Cad battery packs and other Ni-Cad tool packs with Ni-MH where possible.


1.5 AH Pack Disassembly.


About a month ago, I was in Harbor Freight and found the screw driver bits (a pack of long security bits with many sizes) that are required to remove the 4 screws on the bottom of the Makita battery packs. So last week I finally got around to disassembling the Makita 1.5 AH pack. It was much more complex than any of the Ni-Cad packs I have seen but thought "No Guts, No Glory" and total disassembled the pack which contained 5 - 18650 batteries. 1 of the batteries tested at 4 volts, 3 @ 3.8 and 1 @ 0 volts. The one @ 0 volts also had some leakage. I was able to top off the one 4 volt battery using my Nitecore charger (used for my flashlights of course!) however, the 3 - 3.8 volts single cells charge VERY slowly and would keep resetting the Nitecore charger... I decided that I would keep the one battery that started out at 4 volts for future use and set aside the 3 other batteries from that pack for additional testing and charge cycling later.


3.0 AH Pack Disassembly.


Next, I disassembled the 3.0 HA pack. This time with the thought of just changing out any bad cells and reassemble the pack so I could use it again. So, like others have found in this thread, the first upper and lower pair of cells were bad... 1 @ 0 volts and 1 @ -.05 volts (it was reverse charged!). The other 8 cells were all between 3.6 and 3.8 volts. Please remember, these locked up packs have been sitting in the garage since 2008! I was impressed!


Detail Disassembly.


When disassembling this pack I carefully un-soldered the one heavy black wire going from the circuit board to the front set of batteries (looking at the battery with the WHITE RELEASE tab in front of you, it would be the black wire on the top left - SEE PICTURES) and then the tab the goes up from the bottom into the circuit board's charging lug from the connections on the right side of the battery pack. Next, I removed the screw that holds the circuit board to the top of the pack and lifted the circuit board to the side gently. (I left the 2 green and 2 black wires attached.)


Now the hard part! Getting the 10 cell pack out of the case took some time because I didn't want to damage anything since my plan was to reuse this puppy. The top black plastic piece under the circuit board came off easy enough. Next the cells had to be removed. I just keep prying with a straight blade screw driver all around the 10 cell pack until it finally popped out! In the process of this I did tear the green plastic on one of the cells. When I reassembled the cells, I applied some clear silicone to the cell with the rip in the plastic.


Next, I un-soldered the front 2 cells that were bad after remove the paper covering each side of the cells Positive & Negative contacts. I charged the remaining 8 batteries up to a little over 16 volts (they were still all soldered together) . I replace them with good cells from a Ridgid Lithium-Ion pack that were good. But first I charged the Ridgid cells to 4.2 volts each. Next, I resoldered the 2 Ridgid batteries back into where they belong and applied electrical tape to the positive and negative contact where the paper use to be. Next, I put everything back together. Of course I soldered the heavy black wire and tab inserted into the circuit board too! (see photo.)


Once assembled the voltage was 21 volts! Ah, good as new! Tested it in a tool and it worked great! Thought I was done...




Charging Test.


I put the reconstructed pack into the Makita charger and BAM! IT FAILED!!! The red and green lights flashed to say that the pack was still broken!! WHAT? All this work and no pack!.. So, The next day I called Makita Service center to find out how to reset the internal battery circuit board. After talking to a few techs, I finally got the answer...


To learn more, just PalPay me $10.00 to .... Just kidding...


As it turns out Makita only would say they don't service batteries! Like their tools, hate they help!


Once again, I put the battery in the charger and it still gave me the lockup / repair message.


Wait For It...


So, I unplugged the charger and let the reconstructed battery both sit in the garage overnight (it was in the high fifties and low sixties that night) for almost 24 hours.


The next evening, I took the reconstruct battery and put it in the circular saw and ran it a few minutes to get the charge down. WITH THE CHARGER UNPLUGGED, I inserted the reconstructed battery and plugged the charger in. BAM! THE CHARGER STARTED TO AND COMPLETED CHARGING THE RECONSTRUCTED BATTERY PACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


NO MORE REPAIR CODES!!!!!!!!!!!!! (SEE PICTURES)


Now this worked for me using the first gen batteries (Non-Star) and older charger. Your results could be different... Don't Flame or Blame me if it doesn't work for you.


Final Thought.


I do not know for sure why this pack reset. I think it was one of two things or a combination of the two.


1. The reconstructed pack sat over night. This new addition voltage may have told the circuit board that the pack was fixed.


2. The charger was left unplugged over night. Maybe it is the charger that remembers the bad battery - OR-


3. By inserting the battery into the UNPLUGGED charger first, then plugging the charger in, it caused the battery circuit board to "reboot" and check the battery voltage BEFORE giving the Fail message.


I know this is long (I guess that is why I don't do many posts...) but I hope it helps someone else using Makita tools.


Thanks for reading and Please post if it works for you or even if it doesn't!

 

[pipster55]

ifixthings

It has taken some serious searching but finding your post has answered questions that I have had for some time concerning Makita's internal battery circuit board and a possible work around. Others have suggested hacking the board which I am okay with but I am working towards a fix for those who don't want to monitor anything, just plug and play, safe.


It's been a few months since your posting. How is your repair standing up to the test of time?


Thanks for the write-up. I shall make the attempt.

 

[ifixthings]

ifixthings

It has taken some serious searching but finding your post has answered questions that I have had for some time concerning Makita's internal battery circuit board and a possible work around. Others have suggested hacking the board which I am okay with but I am working towards a fix for those who don't want to monitor anything, just plug and play, safe.


It's been a few months since your posting. How is your repair standing up to the test of time?


Thanks for the write-up. I shall make the attempt.

Update...

The rebuilt pack lasted and was rechargeable until the first part of Oct. 2015. At that time, it once again started to give the charging error message. I have not had a chance to disassemble the pack yet, but suspect that maybe another cell went bad. Will provide another update concerning that pack once I get a chance to disassemble and test it again.

Keep us posted on your progress too!

 

[wookey]

Hi people,

I am very interested in Makita's battery design foibles as I have 14 of the 14.4V packs (BL1430). Like mucek we use them for caving. The drill system is great except for the idiotic software in the battery packs, which means that 6 out of our 14 packs now have to be charged on an RC charger instead of the Makita ones (which is fine but slower, and more complicated for our users).

I see that mucek hasn't made any published progress since Oct 2013. Has anyone else? Battery vendors are selling replacement packs so they must have worked out enough of the protocol to make batts that charge. I have just bought one to see how it holds up (and what I can discover).

For our use-case the batts get well-used use (charged/discharged every day or 3) for a month and then sit around all year. I give them all a charge/discharge test each year and store them at 40% charge to improve battery life. We seem to get an average of 3% capacity degredation each year, which seems acceptable.

I have taken them to bits and rebuilt some packs by taking 'dead' 18V packs, stripping off one cell pair and re-assembling. The 14.4V packs are not even balanced by the annoying charge circuit. It only has a sense wire to the middle of the pack - so they presumably check '1st two cells' and 'other two cells', but that's all. Pretty shoddy. The 18V donor packs I have do at least have balance wires.

The best plan seems to be to bin the stupid monitoring circuit, repurpose the yellow connector as a balance connector, and use a sensible charger (I have an Accucel 6). But this is a faff, and it would be nice to work out how to reprogram the packs to stop being so dumb. I have the tech but not enough time for the reverse engineering.

On this point, does anyone know the type of that yellow connector - can I buy a mating half (as opposed to canibalising makita chargers).

Also does anyone know of a good balancing lion charger that does the job of the accucel 6, but can be programmed to 'just start, for 4 cells' on battery insertion so there is no fancy button-pushing to be done (this confuses our less-technical users, and is not needed of rigging up a single-purpose chargeer).

Anyway, if anyone (mucek?) wants to collaborate further on getting to the bottom of this, I am quite keen. Just heading off to expo again for this year, back in 3.5 weeks. With more data and probably some more 'bricked' batteries.

 

[bwDraco]

Welcome to CPF! :welcome:

Unfortunately, I don't have any Makita tools or batteries so I wouldn't be able to help you here. I'm rather surprised that Makita has not resolved this design issue after all these years. Can't they just wire the monitoring circuit to each and all of the cells in parallel so that it draws upon them evenly?

I've had my DeWalt 20V MAX batteries for more than two years with absolutely no trouble.

Draco

 

[finn]

The new 18xx batteries have led gauges, and model numbers end in "B". You can see one disassembled half way through this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXf6yHIKdvQ

They at least appear to be fully balanced now.

 

[simsinater]

Huh, and some more words about hacking the Makita's BMS unit ...

Currently I am so busy, that I didn't make any significant improvement in the protocol decoding. However, I have designed a programmable 6S BMS with proper data output, which will be (later) able to replace (locked) original Makita's BMS in 18 V batteries. Basic BMS functions are already working, but I have to dig deeper in order to persuade Makita charger to give me some power ...

Regards,
Gregor

I'm currently eagerly waiting on parts and tools so that I can start rebuilding my Makita batteries. So glad I found this thread! Any updates on the hacking?

 

[delus]

Makita "Refreshing" charger.

This morning I was looking at some makita chainsaws online... need to complete my collection.
Noticed something very refreshing. The Makita ADP03 (SKU 193681-B) MAKSTAR Refreshing Battery Adapter.
Don't know much about it yet. Don't know how long it's been available to the public. it doesn't show up in Makita's "New Products" website or catalog. you can find it at MakitaUSA.com with a search for "refreshing".
Has anybody seen this thing before?


It appears that it WILL re-animate dead Makita batt packs. Maybe. Pasted from a seller:
This Battery Charger accessory helps restore inactive MAKSTAR&trade Ni-MH batteries that have been inactivated. Refreshing batteries allows you to stretch the overall battery life of your batteries which will save you from having to replace your old batteries.

• Works with Makita battery chargers DC24SA, DC14SA,DC18RA or DC18SC
• Conditions battery cells that have been inactivated for extended battery life
• Refreshes batteries in as little as 40 minutes
• Can automatically detect batteries that need to be refreshed

Accessory??? This had me wondering. Then I found a manual. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1237881/Makita-Adp03.html?page=2#manual

• Page 2 has a very revealing diagram! AHAH! it's an adapter. It is not a charger by itself. It fits on top of an existing charger. It has no cord.
• The Makita website shows the right side, but Amazon has a picture where you can see a curved edge on the left side of it. Now it makes sense.

Page 5 of the manual says "• Use this adapter with Makita battery charger DC14SC, DC14SA, DC18SC, DC24SA or DC24SC." ... Ok, i definitely have one of those.
Also talks of THREE flashing lights and the "Refreshing Button". Also "conditioning" and "refreshing" appear to be two separate things.
It can indicate a "capacity" of less than 40% as a worn out battery. Hmm.. never seen the word "capacity" used like this before.
Page 6 of the manual mentions compatibility with older NiMh, and the BL 1830, but not 1840 or 1850. So the refresh adapter can't be all that new. It's been around awhile.
Pages 7 and 8 show detailed usage instructions, but veer a bit into Chinglish (or should I say Japglish?) Possible fourteen hour conditioning time?

I want, I want, I want! Last time I counted I had 22 of the 18xx packs. Four of them won't charge. One of the four has been sitting on a shelf at least five years. One of the four is a BL1850.
But I'm gonna hold off a couple days, want to find a little more info. Will try some euro and asian sites.


Edit: corrected NiCad to NiMh

 

[delus]

Re: Makita "Refreshing" charger.

Quoting myself from over four years ago…

Yes, Makita service centers have a special charger/computer that will read charge cycles and some other info from the battery's chip.

I knew I had seen something like this through the service center's doorway, but couldn't get a straight answer to my questions. Then when I came back at a later date, they acted like i was stupid. (didn't have to go to acting school)

The date on this parts schematic shows the refresher has been a thing since at least 2010 http://media.toolpartspro.com/image/ADP03/ADP03-Makita-PB.pdf
They are just now making the device available to the public? Is that what's happening here? If so, it seems less than righteous of Makita to withhold it for eight long years while people are throwing away batteries, and of course buying new.


There are a total of five available from three sellers on fleebay. They offer the device at a 300% markup over the price I see at amazon. Are they asking ridiculous prices because they are the first to have a new item? Seems like it. You can see the auction "revision summary" and the oldest date I see there is July 10, 2018, so it's been out in the wild at least that long.


Oh! My! Gawd!
It said only one left on amazon, so I ordered at $91.71…. Went back to the page a few minutes later and now it's out of stock, and the price is $247.10