Manker U22vn - 21700 Thrower R

Wurkkos

vinhnguyen54

Well-known member
CPFBA
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
25,187



  • Impressive throw, run time and heat management
  • USB charging retained (Slow charging - Takes overnight)
  • Manker 4800mAh 21700 cell included
  • 18650 and 20700 OK too
  • DriverVNX2


$190 Oslon 6500K
Lumen: 780
Intensity: 320Kcd
Throw: 1131m

$150 SST40 HD 7500K RECOMMENDED
Lumen: 2000
Intensity: 120Kcd
Throw: 693m



 
Last edited:

noboneshotdog

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
1,351
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

I noticed the numbers are starting to roll out on this light on SkyLumen.com and they are looking pretty good!
 

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Well...quite disappointing really. Just like the original Manker results.
Compared with U21 it has roughly 15% smaller reflector but 30% lower cd/lm.
Also, it throws worse than a slightly smaller D1S (considering cd/lm).
 
Last edited:

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

BTW, Vinh, could you add a photo of those 3 lights side by side?
 

twistedraven

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
1,749
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Well...quite disappointing really. Just like the original Manker results.
Compared with U21 it has roughly 15% smaller reflector but 30% lower cd/lm.
Also, it throws worse than a slightly smaller D1S (considering cd/lm).


Candela isn't a linear function. U22vn is 74.7% the reflector size of U21vn, but 82.9% the throw distance. (1131m as opposed to 1364m)

Another example: T21vn is 58.6% the candela of a stock BLF GT (according to Vinh's measurements), but throws 80.3% the distance of the BLF GT (1606m as opposed to 2000m).


I'm not quite sure why candela per lumen would be so important in a dedicated thrower. When we all look at the perceived brightness of a dedicated thrower, we look at how intense (candela) its hotspot is, not how much lumens are wasted in its spill. LUmens are a linear function in brightness to a computer, but are far from a linear function to us, especially when differences in candela are put into the equation as well.
 
Last edited:

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

In theory, if we change reflector and leave everything else constant, beam intensity is directly proportional to reflector area. In practice some reflectors are better than others, but the best ones out there show similar cd/lm/mm² regardless of size.
Examples? Let's list diameter and cd/mm² of several optics with XHP35 HD driven to 2700 lm.
They are all the Pareto-frontiers in term of throw vs. size.

LedNLight LLC02N, 16 mm, 48.3
Khatod PL19706, 19.7 mm, 55.6
Carclo 10199, 20 mm, 54.1
Carclo 10048, 26.5 mm, 52.4
Khatod PL119806, 26.8 mm, 53.2
Carclo 10755, 30 mm, 52.7
LedNLight LLC05N, 32 mm, 53.4
Khatod PL60006, 35 mm, 55.9
LedNLight LLC49R, 45 mm, 54.7
LedNLight LLC56N, 67 mm, 55.0

This is not very close to what we see here as these are all TIRs. And the LED is not very interesting. But I show this because that's what I have data for. The pattern is clear - performance is directly proportional to area,

That's why I care about cd/lm - given the same LEDs in several hosts it allows determination of reflector quality.

There are some problems with it though:
* head diameter is not reflector diameter. We often have to estimate the latter
* size of LED opening matters
* aspheric-based lights are different beasts and have different active areas, making direct comparisons harder.

BTW for me Manker U22 is not a dedicated thrower. I intend to use it as a general purpose walking light, Though not with Blackie. ;)
 

Newlumen

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
4,389
Location
United States
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

In theory, if we change reflector and leave everything else constant, beam intensity is directly proportional to reflector area. In practice some reflectors are better than others, but the best ones out there show similar cd/lm/mm² regardless of size.
Examples? Let's list diameter and cd/mm² of several optics with XHP35 HD driven to 2700 lm.
They are all the Pareto-frontiers in term of throw vs. size.

LedNLight LLC02N, 16 mm, 48.3
Khatod PL19706, 19.7 mm, 55.6
Carclo 10199, 20 mm, 54.1
Carclo 10048, 26.5 mm, 52.4
Khatod PL119806, 26.8 mm, 53.2
Carclo 10755, 30 mm, 52.7
LedNLight LLC05N, 32 mm, 53.4
Khatod PL60006, 35 mm, 55.9
LedNLight LLC49R, 45 mm, 54.7
LedNLight LLC56N, 67 mm, 55.0

This is not very close to what we see here as these are all TIRs. And the LED is not very interesting. But I show this because that's what I have data for. The pattern is clear - performance is directly proportional to area,

That's why I care about cd/lm - given the same LEDs in several hosts it allows determination of reflector quality.

There are some problems with it though:
* head diameter is not reflector diameter. We often have to estimate the latter
* size of LED opening matters
* aspheric-based lights are different beasts and have different active areas, making direct comparisons harder.

BTW for me Manker U22 is not a dedicated thrower. I intend to use it as a general purpose walking light, Though not with Blackie. ;)

Yes. I am keeping my U21vn Olson.
 

vinhnguyen54

Well-known member
CPFBA
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
25,187
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Well...quite disappointing really. Just like the original Manker results.
Compared with U21 it has roughly 15% smaller reflector but 30% lower cd/lm.
Also, it throws worse than a slightly smaller D1S (considering cd/lm).

U22vn throw more and has more lumen than a D1Svn. Sustain brightness much longer. Far superior heat sinking. I prefer the U22vn build quality and the flexibility if 18650 20700 and 21700. Also u22vn hit spot size is a bit bigger.
 

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Thanks for comments. I'm somewhat surprised that it handles heat better than D1S because Emisar did it so good. But it's bigger, so maybe it shouldn't be unexpected.
Which of them has wider spill?
 
Last edited:

vinhnguyen54

Well-known member
CPFBA
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
25,187
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Thanks for comments. I'm somewhat surprised that it handles heat better than D1S because Emisar did it so good. But it's bigger, so maybe it shouldn't be unexpected.
Which of them has wider spill?

Manker does due to less deep refoector. I really enjoy the 21700 battery. Excellent runtine in a package smaller than 26550. Cant wait to try sst40 in it. I love the SST40 as much as the Oslon although Oslon sell 3 to 1.
 

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Vinh, I struggle to understand the lumen output of several lights.
My understanding is that VTC5A is a superb cell and D1S should have higher output than both U21 and U22. It has the lowest of the three.
Any idea why is it so?
 

vinhnguyen54

Well-known member
CPFBA
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
25,187
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Vinh, I struggle to understand the lumen output of several lights.
My understanding is that VTC5A is a superb cell and D1S should have higher output than both U21 and U22. It has the lowest of the three.
Any idea why is it so?

There are so many factors. I am not a battery expert. I certainly dont put them on a bench and test but just from experience 26650 and the new 21700 seems to have less voltage sag. Lumen are measured at 30S. Some lights also have more current efficient paths by design. Reflector geometry, finished quality and lens thickness/quality can also influence OTF #s. Within a model of light its normal to have 5% variance. Therefore, 10% variance from one light to another with the same LED is extremely normal. The difference could be exaggerated when couple of D1Svn average specs where underrated and the other lights overated with over performing samples. GTvn90 alone vary from about 1.5-1.75Mcd. So 700 Lumen in the D1svn VS 780 in U22vn and 800 in U22vn isn't really much to worry about. As a matter of fact if all there were on you will only likely notice the difference in hot spot intensity from U21vn and the other 2.

D1Svn reflector is also a little deeper than U22vn so that might also reduced its output. I am never a fan of extra deep reflector as depth adds less into the hot spot than it does the corona. Width adds more to the hot spot. U22vn, U21vn, Some eagletacs, TN42vn, GT90vn are samples of lights that I consider balance of width and depth.

D1Svn, Niwalkers Smooth reflector throwers, C8vn, CatapultVN are samples of lights which I consider to have reflectors too deep for their width. I also love spill width and depth kills it...

Unless the specs of a light is really really attractive to you it should never be the key determinant. I would pick TK75vn VS Tn40Svn, U22vn VS D1Svn, D25Cvn VS all the little ones, TC20vn over the other 26650 stubby, TN40vn90 VS GTvn90, MT35vn VS all the others Single 70.2 throwers.....Most of the lights I picked aren't the best performance in their class but I find them special. The Special sauce a light gives you is something specs can never do. This is likely the reason why most people who drove both the Cayman and the Stingray tells me they rather have the Cayman. I have never driven the Cayman so I am here like that the hell?! How can you prefer a car that has 160HP, and 280Tq less and muted more?! Both are around $55000 base price. So yes there are tons of other factors that we dont see right away like weight, balance, and may be quality that adds that special sauce....
 
Last edited:

Agpp

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
411
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Thanks Vinh. I really appreciate your post.

As a theoretician I tend to think that the subjective feelings about a light can be broken down into individual qualities.
And that qualities themselves can be evaluated independently.

But I tend to forget that I never know even half of lights qualities unless I can actually use it.

You strongly reminded me of that. Theory - I love it and I find it very helpful. But practice brings out many things that can be forgotten.

BTW, I'm surprised that you find C8vn reflector too deep, personally I find it good. OTOH L2 is definitely too deep for me.
At the same time MK35 / MF02 is very deep too, deeper than C8, I displaced my L2 so can't compare but from memory they are similar. But my feelings agree with yours - it's not too deep.

Anyway, did you consider building U22vn with XHP35 HI? Drive it to 2.2-2,5 A, it will have higher output than SST40 HD and higher intensity as well. The stock driver may be unable to handle it, but there's a wave of 3A capable drivers on the way....and TA has indicated that he may be building them as well.
 

twistedraven

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
1,749
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

I do not believe a max driven XHP35 HI has more luminance than a max driven sliced dome SST-40. If it had more output and more luminance there'd be no reason to use SST-40 sliced dome.
 

vinhnguyen54

Well-known member
CPFBA
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
25,187
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

Thanks Vinh. I really appreciate your post.

As a theoretician I tend to think that the subjective feelings about a light can be broken down into individual qualities.
And that qualities themselves can be evaluated independently.

But I tend to forget that I never know even half of lights qualities unless I can actually use it.

You strongly reminded me of that. Theory - I love it and I find it very helpful. But practice brings out many things that can be forgotten.

BTW, I'm surprised that you find C8vn reflector too deep, personally I find it good. OTOH L2 is definitely too deep for me.
At the same time MK35 / MF02 is very deep too, deeper than C8, I displaced my L2 so can't compare but from memory they are similar. But my feelings agree with yours - it's not too deep.

Anyway, did you consider building U22vn with XHP35 HI? Drive it to 2.2-2,5 A, it will have higher output than SST40 HD and higher intensity as well. The stock driver may be unable to handle it, but there's a wave of 3A capable drivers on the way....and TA has indicated that he may be building them as well.

C8 head diameter is 45m
MK35 head diameter is 86mm

Depth is relative to head diameter so we cant compare depth of a light that has nearly twice the diameter.

I dont have a good boost driver for the XHP35 HI with a UI I like. Stock UI is OK but I much prefer VNX2. SST40 SD and HD specs coming soon. They are very impressive. I like the SST40 SD even more than the Oslon in this light. Oslon might be better suited in U21vn so maximize its potential. Reflector is an odd thing...Some LED just work better in certain ones. Geometry plays a key role that makes certain beams more desirable than others and there is only one way to find out for us. Build the light.
 

WSB

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
10
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

I have the U21VN with the Oslon and it’s exceptional. Can’t think of a light this size that would even come close to its 480 kcd. Looking forward to the specs on the SST 40 SD in this U22VN.
 

IlluminationDomination

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
227
Location
NW PA.
Re: Manker U22vn - ;-)

I have the U21VN with the Oslon and it’s exceptional. Can’t think of a light this size that would even come close to its 480 kcd. Looking forward to the specs on the SST 40 SD in this U22VN.

I can,,although it is not on his website anymore. The M25C2vn T W/ Oslon is 550Kcd @ 30 seconds. My buddy has it and I am trying to get him to sell it to me.It is 1/2 longer and much lighter. I have the U21vn w/ XPL that I bought from another member. I actually prefer more lumens and a bigger hot spot. It is 260Kcd.
 
Top