Masks thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

KITROBASKIN

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
3,500
Location
New Mexico, USA
Government is trying to make it easier for the logistical factors by offering money.
The main issue as seen behind this device is firstly one of trust in the establishment, trust in the government, trust in doctors, trust in Big Pharma, trust in what is primarily income focused humans and (most scary) those who crave control over all known existence. That is why it is still hoped that most of us will be given the choice to follow authority or not. It is not a challenge to look in the past to see greed and lust for power messing things up for people.

Over abundance of caution seems to be the driving force with this ‘vax’d must wear masks thing’. We don’t want to go back to lockdown protocol again, like other areas of the world are doing.
 

idleprocess

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
6,024
Location
dfw.tx.us
The main issue as seen behind this device is firstly one of trust in the establishment, trust in the government, trust in doctors, trust in Big Pharma, trust in what is primarily income focused humans and (most scary) those who crave control over all known existence. That is why it is still hoped that most of us will be given the choice to follow authority or not. It is not a challenge to look in the past to see greed and lust for power messing things up for people.
Emphasis added. While I don't doubt this is a widely-held perception, I'm at a loss where it comes from. Best I can tell public health officials from the top down are primarily acting within their lanes in the interest of their chartered goals. While there have been strident disagreements over the scope and necessity of their actions and there have been economic casualties along the way, I just don't get the sense that they're trying to usurp duly-authorized authority and control anyone's lives beyond measures needed to mitigate this pandemic.

I do wonder if the success of public health measures are their own worst enemy. Witness the great chest-beating gnashing of teeth bloviating over how those scientists got it wrong. The initial worst-case back-of-the-napkin projections missed the mark ... because we took countermeasures and learned more along the way, greatly changing subsequent projections.

Effectively nobody likes the pandemic countermeasures. I'm a recovering pro introvert and I don't like social distancing, wearing an inconvenient and uncomfortable face mask in public, 'zoom parties'/IM's poorly substituting for get-togethers, and spending almost 18 months largely confined to my neighborhood. There's no constituency for these things - it's natural to dislike and wish for them to end. But transforming this into a persecution narrative is a step too far in my view.
 

nbp

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
10,727
Location
Wisconsin
It's not hard to see where the issues come from. People now freak out about absolutely anything that is proposed by someone from the party they don't align with. They don't see anything as just being normal human issues; every single thing must be the result of a political angle. You can thank social media allowing people to consume only the information that supports the views they already have (slanted, slightly off or downright incorrect) and big tech algorithms that feed users increasingly volatile information with each click to keep them hooked for much of this dumpster fire. So here we are. And with 40% of of people unwilling to vaccinate this virus isn't going anywhere so just get used it I guess.
 

KITROBASKIN

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
3,500
Location
New Mexico, USA
Yeah idleP, that comment was more global than referring to health officials specifically. It has been very sad to see the ugliness that has been directed towards some of them.

But in addition to the pursuit of the mighty dollar (or Euro, or Yuán) as well as the lust for control, it is no surprise that some people love to sound like an expert; love to tell others how to live, love to have the attention, regardless of political affiliation or adherence to accuracy.

As far as COVID vax safety, seems like people should have the right to question long term safety to this day. Just because I and many others are 'good to go', that doesn't mean everything is awesome necessarily. While hopefully no one thinks it will cause a situation as depicted in the book/movie "I Am Legend", we can remember the tragedy of thalidomide...
 

bykfixer

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
14,557
Location
1/2 mile past Yonder
So if every human on planet earth receives the amount of inoculation reccomended by the particular manufacturer would this novel virus just burn out and go away?
Or would it continue to jump from person to person and eventually mutate into a version that hosts would no longer be able to fight off?
 

turbodog

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,334
Location
Southern USA
... we can remember the tragedy of thalidomide...

Yes, but that and c-19 vaccine are fundamentally different technologies. Like comparing carbon-zinc and lithium cells. Same use case, but wildy different tech.

Edit... and of note, Thaliomide is still around and on the WHO's list of essential drugs.
 
Last edited:

turbodog

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,334
Location
Southern USA
So if every human on planet earth receives the amount of inoculation reccomended by the particular manufacturer would this novel virus just burn out and go away?
Or would it continue to jump from person to person and eventually mutate into a version that hosts would no longer be able to fight off?
Glad you asked this as I was just going to mention it.

In short, pretty much. It would be a race between vaccination efforts/progress and virus mutation(s). But eventually, vaccines would prevail.

It's a race right now, except a large portion of the US has decided to sit down when the gun went off in protest of the race organizer.
 

turbodog

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,334
Location
Southern USA
On a 'good' note... my prelim data says the July 4 peak has _started_ to abate. However, we have a LONG want to go before we are at a safe rate... we are still well into the 'swamp healthcare' danger zone. And we've got plenty of superspreader events coming up.
 

bykfixer

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
14,557
Location
1/2 mile past Yonder
Yesterday I heard an explanation of the Delta that made sense. At least to me.
A virologist was on a radio show explaining why it's more contagious.

Think about a water drop with one grain of salt. That would be the original version. The Delta would be like the same drop with 6 grains of salt. Hence the term viral load.

Now some speculate if one gets a small load, say one grain of salt they may be able to fight it off better than receiving say 300 grains of salt. So ten droplets of delta would have many more times a viral load as ten droplets of the original.

That is why many are saying only the N95 is enough. By the way the doctor also said the original version is called the Wuhan with the first mutation being called Alpha. Apparently there are a few Alpha varients. Beta too. Doctors called them various other names that make sense to doctors but the greek letter seems to be used for laymen to easier understand.

It also seems the varients are a virus self survival thing, kinda like other life forms evolve. I suppose we call it mutation because that sounds more drastic. And like the Spanish flu did this one is adapting in ways that folks that were not seemingly affected before are now such as folks under 12 years old.

Now the information that seems to be secret is the hospitalization and death rate. The Delta is less deadly by statisics. Partly because of treatments and partly because, at least in America the most vulnerable have largely been inoculated. Yet this one is like the ones before it….it can still kill yorass if you have certain health issues. It seems in youth the obescity thing is a factor. Athsma is also an issue with youngsters according to the virologist.

So, continue wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart and wear a face cover when congregating close to people. And live as normally as you can.
 

idleprocess

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
6,024
Location
dfw.tx.us
It also seems the varients are a virus self survival thing, kinda like other life forms evolve. I suppose we call it mutation because that sounds more drastic.
Since viruses exist to replicate making an unimaginable number of themselves in the process any mutation that increases this replication potential without otherwise hampering viability and spread will swiftly out-reproduce other strains. Mutation is simply the genetics term for the process that causes this; because viruses make so many copies of themselves - hijacking the genetic machinery of the host cell in the process - errors in replication inevitably occur.

That is why many are saying only the N95 is enough
Cloth masks, surgical masks, gaiters, bandanas, unrated dust masks, even cloth masks with N95/KN95/FFP2-rated inserts were all primarily meant to slow the spread, and mostly of benefit when infected individual wore them effectively to protect others, which so many did not. Better-fitting PPE ala purpose-built N95/KN95/FFP2 masks or half-face respirators with similar or better cartridges (ala the aforementioned and N100/P100) offer reasonable protection to the wearer, however they must form a decent seal and be handled carefully.

Now the information that seems to be secret is the hospitalization and death rate.

I was actually trying to find similar information earlier today and couldn't find much anything - in particular the hospitalization rate among the vaccinated. Best I got was an article on Ars Technica:

As of July 26, the CDC had recorded 6,587 breakthrough infections that resulted in hospitalization or death among 163 million fully vaccinated people, Dr. Fauci noted. That works out to just 0.004 percent of fully vaccinated people getting a severe breakthrough infection.
[...]
In the past, Fauci and Walensky have noted that unvaccinated people account for 97 percent of COVID-19 hospitalizations and over 99 percent of COVID-19 deaths in the country.

Either statistic represents a very low rate of hospitalization for the vaccinated.

So, continue wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart and wear a face cover when congregating close to people. And live as normally as you can.

This.
 

Hooked on Fenix

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
2,142
Looks like this mask and vaccine ordeal is turning into a big mess. Going off of the CDC's recommendations that have no force of law, many states and cities have decided to require that people must be vaccinated and show proof of it or get tested once or twice a week (probably at their own expense) and wear masks in order to get or keep a job, go to the gym, store, movies, etc.. They just screwed the pooch. The common person is thinking, "If the vaccine works, why do I have to wear a mask, and if I have to wear a mask anyway, what is the point of risking my health on an experimental vaccine that doesn't even have FDA approval." People are going to revolt over this. The unions have already started. Rioting has started in France over this and they don't have all the laws we have making this entirely illegal.

Let's discuss the legality of making someone take a vaccine against their will. The vaccine isn't FDA approved. It's experimental. It requires a signed informed consent agreement before they can give you the vaccine. For a private business, this may or may not be illegal as they may be able to list being vaccinated as a job requirement for getting the job. However, if it isn't in the contract, they may be liable for unlawful termination of current employees. If current employees are fired because this is a government mandate, liability also goes to the government entity that enacted the mandate as they would have violated contract law under Article 1 Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution: "No state shall...pass any... law impairing the obligation of contracts". If they charge for testing and it's a choice between paying each week for a test or getting an experimental vaccine that requires informed consent, they could be charged with extortion, at least in California. California Penal Code Section 522 says, "Every person who, by any extortionate means, obtains from another his signature to any paper or instrument, whereby, if such signature were freely given, any...demand, charge, or right of action created, is punishable in the same manner as if the actual delivery of such debt, demand, charge, or right of action were obtained." Then we have HIPPA, which you would think would protect your privacy from being forced to give personal medical information away. There is an exemption for protecting the public health so that is debatable. The 4th Amendment protects your right to be secure in your papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures without a warrant or probable cause so going to a system where you have to show your papers is illegal, discriminatory, and downright wrong. In short, get ready for a lawsuit bonanza, public officials fired or jailed over this, and most importantly, a work strike and the fallout from more people not working or producing goods.

All that said, I am fully vaccinated, but I am against anyone who would force someone to put something into their body against their will by threatening them with their careers and livelihoods. That is sick and wrong and deserves the full retaliation from all whom it affects. As far as masks go, I have a neurological disorder that the doctors have spent over 5 years trying to diagnose and has started causing breathing problems. If someone tries to force me to wear a mask, I will sue them into the poorhouse for violating the ADA.
 

nbp

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
10,727
Location
Wisconsin
I feel like we have gotten way off the original topic and this thread has become a catch all for C19 discussions. Let’s keep this one for mask ideas and applications. I believe there was another one highlighting the vaccine efforts we can bump up.
 

Poppy

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
5,917
Location
Northern New Jersey
Looks like this mask and vaccine ordeal is turning into a big mess. Going off of the CDC's recommendations that have no force of law, many states and cities have decided to require that people must be vaccinated and show proof of it or get tested once or twice a week (probably at their own expense) and wear masks in order to get or keep a job, go to the gym, store, movies, etc.. They just screwed the pooch. The common person is thinking, "If the vaccine works, why do I have to wear a mask, and if I have to wear a mask anyway, what is the point of risking my health on an experimental vaccine that doesn't even have FDA approval." People are going to revolt over this. The unions have already started. Rioting has started in France over this and they don't have all the laws we have making this entirely illegal.

Let's discuss the legality of making someone take a vaccine against their will. <SNIP>
People are stupid!

At this point in time, it is unfathomable to me, that anyone needs an explanation of the need of the vaccination to eradicate this virus. Nor do I understand why people won't get vaccinated, if for no other reason than to help protect the little ones who CAN NOT get vaccinated.

Those who thought that wearing a single layer cloth bandana, or even a surgical mask would protect them don't have the intellect to understand what they were being told. Again, and again, they were told to wear a face covering, to protect others. Many people falsely believed that it would protect them. That is NOT what they were told.

Now that N95 masks are available, finally we are being told that if one wants personal protection, he/she should use a N95 rated mask. Still a single layer mask is helpful to reduce the spread to others, although it offers little protection to the wearer.


Regarding legal issues presented:
Lawyers are experts at arguing either side of an issue.
Many lawyers are ready to argue that it is not illegal to limit employment regarding vaccinated or not.

Certainly "Not fully approved" may be the strongest argument for some, but I believe that the evidence leading to full approval greatly out-weighs, the stringent timeline requirements of full approval. There have been millions of people vaccinated with no counter effects.
 

scout24

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
8,546
Location
Penn's Woods
Poppy- You're allowed your opinion. By that token, so is everyone else, even if there is disagreement. Calling people stupid because they do not agree with you won't fly here, whatever my personal feelings are. We used to be able to have civilized discourse in this country, I know you remember it. Back on track...
 

KITROBASKIN

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
3,500
Location
New Mexico, USA
Today was the first staff day for upcoming school year (elementary). Heard a new term; those who do not wish to identify as vaccinated. Turns out they must be in the pool of employees who will have to take a COVID test, random chosen 25% of them each week. Outdoors is maskless. Refusal to wear a mask indoors by a student is considered a dress code violation (parent picks up child). An employee who refuses to wear inside goes into a due process kind of thing. And a visitor/family member of student must go through a sequence/passage to enter the facility and be wearing a mask for the 2nd door to be buzzed open. If the visitor takes off the mask in a building and refuses to wear one, the office is to be notified and the sheriff's office will be called if noncompliance continues. Let's hope we all get along and the perceived threat greatly diminishes.
 
Last edited:

Poppy

Well-known member
CPF Supporter
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
5,917
Location
Northern New Jersey
Hi Scout24,
Sorry, I forgot your name, that is one of my greatest weaknesses.

I wasn't calling HOF stupid. In fact, I don't think he is stupid. When he wants to make an argument, he often backs it up with facts. It wasn't personal.

Generally speaking, I think that a huge percentage of our population, are actually stupid, or in other words do stupid things, without giving consideration to their actions. Someone posted here, a statistical study, that I don't recall exactly, but the reading level of the average American is below 3rd grade level and their comprehension is so low that they can't follow a thought beyond a paragraph or two. That is shockingly sad.
 

idleprocess

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
6,024
Location
dfw.tx.us
The common person is thinking, "If the vaccine works, why do I have to wear a mask, and if I have to wear a mask anyway, what is the point of risking my health on an experimental vaccine that doesn't even have FDA approval."
The messaging on masks has always been tortured.

The carrot that was dangled early this year that you could drop the mask if you got vaccinated was at best ill-advised. Of course, the reason for the change in guidance was simple - if not unpopular and often distorted - the nature of the virus has changed for the worse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top