More on Hydrogen Cars...

[ikendu]

MIT has released a study about the likely improvements in car engine improvements by the year 2020. Their "reference" car is a Camry-like mid-size car.

Here are their projected "equivalent mileages" by 2020:

43.2 mpg gas (all of these based on a Camry-like car)
56.0 mpg diesel <-- a Jetta wagon already gets 49 mpg!
70.8 mpg gas hybrid
82.3 mpg diesel hybrid
42.3 mpg Fuel Cell; hydrogen from on-board gasoline
56.9 mpg Fuel Cell; hydrogen from on-board methanol
94.1 mpg Fuel Cell; hydrogen gotten "somehow" stored in a tank of some kind
149 mpg battery powered electric

It isn't clear to me about how the "Hydrogen gotten somehow" is supposed to compare...but it is clear that getting the hydrogen by "reforming" a fossil fuel like gasoline or methanol is not nearly as efficient as simply using a diesel hybrid!

So...we're going to spend all this money on the Bush research program on Hydrogen only to end up with a technology that by 2020 is hardly better than diesel...and possibly a lot less efficient?

BioDiesel is here now, works now, in today's vehicles with no modification...but is hardly on anyone's radar. You can really see the effect of "moneyed interests" at work in our gov't priorities! It seems to me that getting hydrogen from fossil fuels is "OK" with petroleum interest groups 'cause they still get to peddle dino fuel.

BTW...you might notice how efficient the battery powered electric vehicle is like the one that GM will be taking away from Darell.

Just my 2 cents...

160 page MIT study on vehicles in 2020

2 page BioDiesel summary

 

[Bill.H]

There's a dealer here in Maine who mixes biodiesel 50/50 with heating oil. Can't use it straight since it gels too easily.

Only thing that bothers me about electric cars is how the electricity is being created - when it's from a coal or oil plant, all you're doing is shifting the location of the pollution.

Personally, I like the hybrid diesel idea. If only they sold them.

 

[tkl]

nothing will peform like good ol unleaded. it's not catching on cause nobody wants to drive a rice grinding matchbox.

 

[Brock]

Even the worst coal electric plant is about 10 times cleaner then the best gasoline car out there, they are typically about 100 times cleaner then a standard gas engine or ICE.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:
* 149 mpg battery powered electric
.....
BTW...you might notice how efficient the battery powered electric vehicle is like the one that GM will be taking away from Darell.


[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed. Interesting how in 17 years we will have a vehicle that'll have the same efficiency as my current car that was designed in the late 1980's. More often than not, it is assumed that battery electric technology will remain stagnant as everything else improves dramatically.

My EV1 sees about 150 *gallon of gas equivalent* while my Rav4 sees about 125.

The craziest part about this is that we can look forward to the ability to drive a fuel cell car that'll be less efficient than a gasoline car. nice.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
tkl said:
nothing will peform like good ol unleaded. it's not catching on cause nobody wants to drive a rice grinding matchbox.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna take a wild guess here that you've never driven a high performance electric. My EV1 beats MOST "good ol' unleaded" cars without breaking a sweat. The fact of the matter is that it is far easier to build a high performance electric motor than it is to build a high-output ICE engine.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill.H said:
Only thing that bothers me about electric cars is how the electricity is being created - when it's from a coal or oil plant, all you're doing is shifting the location of the pollution.


[/ QUOTE ]
If that is truly the only worry that you have about electrics, then fear not. Brock already pointed out one of the most important points. Another biggie is how much electricity is used in creating and distributing gasoline. If you think electricity generation is dirty, then you need to add that dirt to the gasoline part of the equation too. Suddenly, pure EVs look very clean indeed. Realize too, that about 90% of our power is taken when it is otherwise *wasted* at off peak times. Our country's current generation capacity could support about 50 million EVs without a new plant coming online. In contrast, gasoline is made 24/7, and the oil industry is the single biggest consumer of electricity in this country.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. This is a thread about hydrogen. I'll get it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
Even the worst coal electric plant is about 10 times cleaner then the best gasoline car out there, they are typically about 100 times cleaner then a standard gas engine or ICE.

[/ QUOTE ]
... and the difference becomes even greater when you consider that an EV can be powered completely by renewable power. A gasoline vehicle will never be able to claim that, of course.

Ok, I've done enough damage to this thread for one day.

 

[tkl]

[ QUOTE ]
Darell said:
[ QUOTE ]
tkl said:
nothing will peform like good ol unleaded. it's not catching on cause nobody wants to drive a rice grinding matchbox.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna take a wild guess here that you've never driven a high performance electric. My EV1 beats MOST "good ol' unleaded" cars without breaking a sweat. The fact of the matter is that it is far easier to build a high performance electric motor than it is to build a high-output ICE engine.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying you can keep up with my V-6? or my next purchase a V-8? what do you do for rechage on long trips?

 

[ikendu]

tkl said: ...can keep up with my V-6? or ... a V-8? what do you do for rechage on long trips?

A few points... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

1. I think Darell's EV1 will likely wax virtually any V6 or V8 that's out there

Nice AutoWeek article on TZero EV...0-60 in 4.9 seconds

2. If you are talking pulling power then I know the diesels can complete QUITE well. My VW Golf will creep in traffic at idle...uphill. I've done it.

3. Range...certainly not an issue with my Golf. It'll do 700 miles on the highway from one tank.

As far as an electric goes...(pun), range is certainly an issue to consider. There are four answers to that.

a. Take along generation

This is where you have enough battery charge to handle most short trips (and most trips in the U.S. are short trips). After that, you have a small, efficient motor that recharges your batteries from a liquid fuel.

80 mpg "Parallel Diesel Hybrid" @ San Diego State

b. You tow along a generator trailer on the trips where you need long range. You could rent it for those long trips...and, it you are going camping...instant electricity!

Rav4 EV powered by small generator trailer

c. How fast can you drink a glass of water (recharge /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )?

Range is way less of an issue if you can recharge quickly. Darell heard testimony from a Lithium Ion battery manufacturer that can recharge the car pack in 20 minutes or less (300 mile range?). I think I could stop every 300 miles for a bite to eat while my EV recharges on a long trip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

d. Finally...and this is the truly practical "works right now" part of the answer, many families have two cars. The EV could have a limited range and still satisfy the overall needs of a family with two vehicles. After all, that second car could be a diesel running on BioDiesel! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think if the only people in America that ever benefited from EVs were ones that had 2 cars...it would still make a big impact on our environment and our energy usage.

 

[ikendu]

Bill.H said: Personally, I like the hybrid diesel idea. If only they sold them.

Well...the Hybrid part only serves to make them get even better mileage. You can buy a nice VW Jetta wagon that gets 49 mpg highway; today. This fall, VW is re-introducing the diesel in the Passat if you'd like a larger car.

In either case, they will both run on BioDiesel; clean, efficient and Made-in-America! If you run dino diesel, it will definitely save money over gasoline...and reduce the amount of oil we have to import. If you choose BioDiesel, it'll cost more than dino diesel (today) but...for that extra cash ($15-20/mo) you'll know that you are not depleting the world supply of fuel (it's renewable)...and, none of your fuel dollars will ever end up in the hands of foreign terrorists that want to kill you or your fellow Americans.

That's good! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Darell]

ikendu -

You've done me proud! Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TKL - in an uncharacteristic-for-Darell brief style, I'll add to what ikendu posted: "Most likely, yes" is the answer to your question. Ever wonder why the fastest trains in the world are electric? Ever wonder how a little electric motor, running just 12V can turn over your cold, giant V8 in the morning?

If you want more details, I'll be more than happy to provide them. Please don't suffer under the joe-sixpack assumption that electric cars are golf carts.

In a nod to ikendu's latest avitor, here's the plate I always wanted:

 

[tkl]

[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:
tkl said: ...can keep up with my V-6? or ... a V-8? what do you do for rechage on long trips?

A few points... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

1. I think Darell's EV1 will likely wax virtually any V6 or V8 that's out there


[/ QUOTE ]

i drive a big truck, not a matchbox guys. i meant an even comparison. even weight, even size. not something in theory from popular mechanics, something available now.

i seriously doubt an electric suv will beat a gas suv.

darrel, if you take a long trip, where do you charge?

 

[Darell]

Here is my own car on the left (0-60 in under 7 seconds) parked next to the second Tzero ever made. That one does
0-60 in 4.2 seconds. And still gets the gallon of gas equivalent of 150mpg if driven normally.

The Tzero is one of the few cars on the road that can make the EV1 look like a tall, big car.

Linked Photo

 

[tkl]

soyfuel, just saw your comments on range. what a hassle! most of this is still in its infancy. it'll take forever for people to give up what they currently enjoy and products and places to recharge or service to be in place.

sounds like enviromental rhetoric, as usual they've got the cart in front of the horse.

i'll stick with gas until they've matched the availability and ease of gas. then i'll think about it. i'm sure i'll always prefer the ICE.

 

[Darell]

The range issues are only a hassle if you use the vehicle incorrectly. Let me just say this: Use the right vehicle for the right purpose.

You don't take your Winnibego on your work commute. You don't take the Corvette when it is time for camping. You don't pull your boat with the motorcycle. Yet many folks own these types of "limited" vehicles. And nobody considers them limiting. Why? Because they use them for their intended purpose.

Do you find it convenient to pull into a gas station every day/week/month? And then stand there while the car fills before you can be on your way? I don't. But that's what we're used to, so we call it convenient.

There are many other issues to consider here beyond mere convenience. Doesn't really sound like you want to hear about 'em though, so I'll shut up.

 

[ikendu]

tkl said: it'll take forever for people to give up what they currently enjoy

As a practical matter...I agree with much of this. Most people don't have an electric vehicle on their radar...so, it will take time for them to switch. I also agree a lot with Darell's point of view that many, many people would not only find the EV1 acceptable today but would actually fall in love with it in short order! Many Americans own a car that they really only use for commuting. When I had kids in the house, we owned a minivan for trips, vacations, etc. and a compact car like a Civic for commuting. I know in my case that the EV1 would completely meet that commuting need 100%...and I'm pretty sure I'd love it! Quiet, clean smelling, powerful, no oil changes, no tune ups, simple to refuel just by plugging in at night when I get home; never stopping on a cold winter day in the sleet to refuel...sound's pretty darn nice to me! And all at the same time I am getting the equivalent of 150 mpg and using NO imported oil?

tkl said: i'll stick with gas until they've matched the availability and ease of gas

Well...we all have to make our own choices. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

From my perspective, each and every person that "sticks with gas" is sending at least part of their fuel dollars outside of the U.S.

The Department Of Energy has estimated that importing oil has cost the U.S. economy $3.4 trillion in lost value. Some of that HUGE amount of money got funneled to Osama Bin Laden who used it to pay for flight training for his suicide pilots that killed over 3000 Americans.

Not everybody shares that perspective...so, I agree, it will take a while for people to switch. Although, one by one, there are people buying diesel cars (the sales of TDIs at VW are up) and people are actually running BioDiesel in them. If you like liquid fueled ICEs, then there are plenty of options to switch to diesel power and run BioDiesel for your fuel...severing the connection to imported oil! If you like big trucks, the Ford F-250 has a very highly regarded PowerStroke Diesel.

We all make our choices in our own time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:
We all make our choices in our own time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Great stuff, as usual, ikendu. The problem is, we can only make our own choices if the choices exist. If nobody stretches the envelope, and takes the chance on alternate fuel vehicles, then the choices won't exist until the choice of non-renewable oil is eliminated.

We would not have Pentium 4 processors today if nobody bought the Pentium 1.

I have to admit that I wasn't entirely receptive to biodiesel when I first experienced it, but you have opened my eyes tremendously. You've inspired me to learn up on this great technology. I certainly now hold a straight biodiesel car in higher regard than any of the so-called "hybrids" that we have today.

And back to *almost* being on topic. I stopped by the Fuel Cell Partnership today on my way to lunch and watched a test of a new Ford FCV. The thing was doing some blistering accelerations tests. I was most impressed, and then was told that all of the runs I'd just seen were done purely on battery to test the drive systems. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[CNC Dan]

[ QUOTE ]
Darell said:
The range issues are only a hassle if you use the vehicle incorrectly. Let me just say this: Use the right vehicle for the right purpose.

You don't take your Winnibego on your work commute. You don't take the Corvette when it is time for camping. You don't pull your boat with the motorcycle. Yet many folks own these types of "limited" vehicles. And nobody considers them limiting. Why? Because they use them for their intended purpose.




[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is a big part of the problem.
If you are going to have only one car, you have to get one that can do all the tasks that you have for it. So if you have a trailer to tow once or twice a year, you get an SUV or truck. You can still commute with the truck, but you can't tow with the small economy car. Having two (or more) types of cars is a good idea, but costly.

I think the big atraction for hydrogen is the quick refill time and the greenness.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
CNC Dan said:
I think that is a big part of the problem.
If you are going to have only one car, you have to get one that can do all the tasks that you have for it. So if you have a trailer to tow once or twice a year, you get an SUV or truck. You can still commute with the truck, but you can't tow with the small economy car. Having two (or more) types of cars is a good idea, but costly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Dan. Thanks for jumping into the shark tank. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

In order:

I agree that range and recharge time are "a big part of the problem" in fitting an EV seamlessly into the American lifestyle. I don't think I'll ever figure out how all the benefits of EVs are typically ignored while the perceived limitations are magnified though. But yes, range and recharge time are the two biggest reservations that most people have with EVs. And both of them are currently artificially crappy since nobody wants to build these cars.

Next, yes, if you purchase one car, and it is an SUV, you can commute in it and tow your boat once a year. But isn't that a bit like sticking a thumbtack in with a sledge hammer? If this is all about cost, the best thing you could do in the situation you describe is buy a small economy car, and rent an SUV for a couple of weeks each year. Everything about the econobox is cheaper to own and operate. You can even park the thing in a standard size spot at the mall. You'll be polluting less and saving gobs of money. But this isn't really all about cost, is it? It is about convenience. There are many conveniences associated with owning an EV, but they typically go unnoticed. How convient is it to change your oil? To take the car in for a tuneup? To stand and pump your gas? To "warm the car up" before using the engine's full power? To watch as gas prices leave your jaw on the floor? To wait while your transmission decides which gear would be best for the full acceleration that you just asked for?

An EV is NOT the perfect car for every situation. Not by a long shot. But then neither is an SUV. Or an economy car. Or a TDI. Or a hybrid. But for certain tasks there is no better vehicle than a battery EV. It turns out that the task of commuting (less than 30 miles!) occupies about 75% of American miles driven, and an EV is perfect for that task. Absolutely, hands-down the best choice.

[ QUOTE ]

I think the big atraction for hydrogen is the quick refill time and the greenness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Consider that it'll cost the equivalent of about $30/gallon of gas to fill up with hydrogen, if you can find it. Then consider that infrastructure is at least 20 years out, if it happens at all (current prediction is that a full H2 infrastructure buildout would cost about the same as our national debt). Then realize that H2 vehicles are THREE to FOUR times less efficient than EVs, and I'm afriad that reality may not live up to the misinformed "attraction" of FC vehicles. Quick refill is great, if you can actually find a place to fill. And if you don't mind dealing with a 9,000psi connection. They typical fill will be much lower pressure, for obvious safety and expense reasons, and will take quite a bit longer. Like an hour. Or three.

Listening to the auto makers talk about this issue is pathetic. They tell us that they could bring to market an ICE H2 (burn H2 directly in an internal combustion engine instead of using it for a fuel cell) in just a year or two. The reason they can do this so quickly is because an ICE is an ICE is an ICE and it really isn't that big of a stretch. But the reason they *won't* build an H2 ICE? Have you figured it out yet? They say they won't build it because there is no way to fuel them. No infrastructure! Why build a car that you can't fuel? So, to avoid the ugly problem of having a vehicle ready before the infrastructure, they've decided that building FC's is a much safer bet. Since there is no way FCs will be affordable before 10-20 years or so, we don't have to fret about the infrastructure problem. By that time, somebody, as yet unnamed, is supposed to step up to the plate and install infrastructure that will make the financial tab for the Iraq war seem like peanuts.

Hey... look at me! I actually finished somewhat on topic!