More Power Out Than In???

thefish

thefish

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Ok this has been bugging me for a while now... I have made a constant current voltage boost setup on a proto board and it is powering a single 1 watt LED (I got from China). The power source for this is one Duracell AA battery. So far so good except it has been sitting here on my desk running away for 10.5 hours now and in a dark room it seams to be just as bright, a quick check says the battery is at 1.19 volts now.


The strangest part:
The battery is putting out 1.19V @ 350ma (0.42W) but when I check the values at the LED contacts I am getting 3.1V @ 300ma (0.93W) ... what is going on here? I know this is just not possible, is my amp meter broken or what? But how does that explain 10.5 hours of constant running now?

UPDATE:
Now it is 14 Hours and still going strong battery now 1.14V once again I have to leave so I will shut it down but start it up again later.

Image of LED

LEDWeb.jpg


Here is the scope

ScopeWeb.jpg
 
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A

amanichen

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To boost up the voltage the driver generates some sort of wave. That means the voltage rises and falls, albeit at a very high frequency. You're not getting more power out than is going in, you're just measuring power with the assumption that the voltage to the LED is constant.

If you looked at the voltage across the LED using an oscilloscope you'd see that it's not not the flat value that your multimeter tells you it is. If you're measuring a DC voltage, then your multimeter won't be sensitive enough to register changes at however many kiolhertz the driver is running at.

I'm curious, however, exactly how bright is this LED after 10 hours on an AA battery. I'd imagine it's far past useful output...
 
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thefish

thefish

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amanichen said:
To boost up the voltage the driver generates some sort of wave. That means the voltage rises and falls, albeit at a very high frequency. You're not getting more power out than is going in, you're just measuring power with the assumption that the voltage to the LED is constant.

If you looked at the voltage across the LED using an oscilloscope you'd see that it's not not the flat value that your multimeter tells you it is. If you're measuring a DC voltage, then your multimeter won't be sensitive enough to register changes at however many kiolhertz the driver is running at.

I'm curious, however, exactly how bright is this LED after 10 hours on an AA battery. I'd imagine it's far past useful output...

Wel I have a 300MHZ scope sitting here lets just test that to see what is going on... actually after 10 hours it is still very very usable light output that is what lead me to believe there is something funny going on... it is almost the same brightness as when it started. Of course it is just sitting here mounted to a heat sink and no reflector or optic so it is a bit hard to judge... I tried to designed this system to give about constant brightness till the battery gets to 1V then drop to low power (20-30% power) till 0.9V then shut off.
 
thefish

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The scope is showing a pattern at 1.3Mhz... it is a flat line followed by a ring (must be switching noise) then a flat line, the flat line is at 3.00V compared to ground.
 
thefish

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EngrPaul said:
That's a real special battery (cell) you have there.

An Ultra Duracell AA (MX1500) used at .4 Watt should be at 1.2 volts at about 2 hours.

Check out their data sheet at
http://www.duracell.com/Procell/productdata/#

Yes I know this makes no sense to me, could there be some other power source comming into play but if so I am not sure what... or is my amp meter broken... and its not even an Ultra its just a normal Duracell.
 
EngrPaul

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If your meter has a "PEAK/RMS" setting, make sure it's on "RMS".
 
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amanichen

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What's the Vrms the scope is giving you? Is the scope signal set to the proper reference ground?

Edit:

Even if you're getting a little creative with the measurements, it's still impossible for even a lithium AA to provide 1W for 10.5 hours. Something in your story isn't adding up.
 
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thefish

thefish

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amanichen said:
What's the Vrms the scope is giving you? Is the scope signal set to the proper reference ground?

Edit:

Even if you're getting a little creative with the measurements, it's still impossible for even a lithium AA to provide 1W for 10.5 hours. Something in your story isn't adding up.

That is exactly what I am saying but I am not sure what is going on, I am not trying to fake this its totally perplexing me... the best I can come up with is my amp meter is broken and the current is really much lower, but then why is it so bright?

What kind of machines do I need to chart the light output vs batter voltage over time maybe this can help?
 
matrixshaman

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Your getting ZPE (zero point energy) - what the EE's tell us about electricity is all wrong. You've stumbled onto a magic circuit. Watch for black helicopters. " Where does all electromagnetic (EM) field energy and all EM potential energy come from in the first place? Answer: From the vacuum all around us. A Nobel prize was awarded in 1957 for substantiating the extraction process.— Tom Bearden, Physicist" :)
 
thefish

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So not trusting my amp meter I connected it to my Q3 with a fresh RCR123A in it and it says 1 Amp so I am thinking the amp meter is operating correctly... that still does not help matters at all.
 
EngrPaul

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Your setup has caused a temperal distortion, and the circuit has only moved 2 hours while your clock has moved 10.5...
 
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amanichen

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thefish said:
What kind of machines do I need to chart the light output vs battery voltage over time maybe this can help?
You, my friend, have broken the laws of physics in our universe. You don't need machines - you need the help of your locally assigned witch doctor to repel this free energy invasion into our calm and peaceful energy conserving universe. We must appease the energy conserving gods lest our quantum wave functions will simultaneously collapse!
 
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thefish

thefish

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amanichen said:
You, my friend, have broken the laws of physics in our universe. You don't need machines - you need the help of your locally assigned witch doctor to repel this free energy invasion into our calm and peaceful energy conserving universe. We must appease the energy conserving gods lest our quantum wave functions will simultaneously collapse!

Ok sure but seriously what kind of equipment can chart light output over time, other than just using a LUX meter and checking it ever so often.
 
thefish

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Here are some shots at hour 16.5
huh2.gif


It looks brighter in real life, also this reflector seams to not match it as it makes it into a total flood with no spot.

This wall is at a range of 12 feet (as is the camera). Seems like it must not be really 1 Watt in operation.

Hour16.5-12FT.JPG



Same Light now facing the map on the wall at 1 meter (still 16.5 hours and going strong)

1MeterMap16Hour.jpg


This shot is the same as the first but using my UltraFire 602A and a frech battery (just for compare).

Ultrafire602A.JPG


You can see that it is not living up to the 1-Watt output of say the Ultrafire 602A but this is still very impressive after 16.5+ hours of operation I would say.
 
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L

Lit Up

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matrixshaman said:
A Nobel prize was awarded in 1957 for substantiating the extraction process.— Tom Bearden, Physicist" :)

And I bet you there was certain a little Serbian there doing it 20 years prior. ;)
 
macforsale

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EngrPaul

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How about a range shot?

You could connect a DPDT switch to the LED with the LED on center pole, and your output circuit on one side. Then connect a DC source on the other side of the switch.

Now slowly increase the DC source while you use the calibrated eye or a light measuring device to determine the DC equivalent of the light output when you throw the switch.

It's not direct, but I bet it will give you better results than what you are getting (at least at the LED)
 
thefish

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EngrPaul said:
How about a range shot?

You could connect a DPDT switch to the LED with the LED on center pole, and your output circuit on one side. Then connect a DC source on the other side of the switch.

Now slowly increase the DC source while you use the calibrated eye or a light measuring device to determine the DC equivalent of the light output when you throw the switch.

It's not direct, but I bet it will give you better results than what you are getting (at least at the LED)

That is a good idea except I dont have any variable power supplies here (only some fixed ones @ 5V, 12V, -12V, 6V)...
 

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