My Surefire U2 (100 Lumen) brighter than Fenix P1dce CREE '135' Lumens!

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daveman

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Andromeda said:
Done my conparison test, my U2 is definitely brighter than my P1Dce. I bounce both beam onto the ceiling, U2 reflected noticebly brighter.
Congratulations, your $300, 2 cell, 6-inch U2 is brighter (so you say...) than the $70, 1 cell, 3-inch P1D CE.
I guess you didn't get ripped off?
 

Mike89

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This thread is a trip. Comparing lights where one has twice the voltage and 4 times the price of the other. I don't get it. I think some people have Surefireitis. Spend the money guys, I'll save mine and get the Fenix (or maybe 4 of them).

Maybe the U2 is a tad brighter, but it's sure not "kick it's butt" brighter as was stated and it's dam sure not 4 times better!
 
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luminari

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Re: My Surefire U2 (100 Lumen) brighter than Fenix P1dce '135' Lumens!

xiaowenzu said:
But in the Fenix P1DCE case, it was designed to use only 1 Cr123, so the circuitry is not really optimised for two batts. Therefore, it will only be the runtime that's prolonged.

Hahah, this curious reasoning definitely brought a smile to my face... please give details!

xiaowenzu said:
I agree, while the measure of Lumens has it's uses, in practical world the measurement of mcd and Lux are more relevant to how our eyes perceive the brightness of the light.

Uh, doesn't that depend on what you plan on using the light for? Lasers and spotlights have relatively high Candela (mcd) relative to their lumen output, but I certainly wouldn't want to use one to read a map or search for a missing Leatherman. The U2 isn't a spotlight, but comparing mcd may not be as useful to some people as comparing lumens. It just depends.

I like the U2, as well, but I wouldn't go dancing around the house just because it's a few percent brighter in mcd. If you really wanted, you could put an aspherical optic in front of many modern lights and they would destroy the P1D-CE and U2 in mcd at a moderate distance.

The U2 uses a Luxeon V portable, correct? This LED is rated for only 500 hours, according to the manufacturer. http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS40.pdf
Certainly, it may last longer than that, but its performance seems to degrade much more quickly than other power LEDs. Philips' spec sheets estimate around a 25-35% drop in brightness after only 500 hours of use. And we all know that spec sheets are pretty optimistic.

At $279 per U2, each hour at full brightness costs you $0.56 not including batteries. Oh, but those are some glorious hours :)

Anyways, they are both great lights for two very different purposes. One fits on a keychain and the other is built like a tank.
 

Bullzeyebill

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Gentleman (ladies too?) back to the thread title. The U2 was perceived as brighter than the P1. If the U2 in question is indeed brighter than the P1 in question, then the P1 is not lumen rated properly. That is all we can really deduce from the original posters comments. As far as other comparisions go, the U2 has its place and the P1 has its place, and our preferences are based on subjective analysis. I might like the U2 and you might like the P1. So what? Actually, they are two very different lights and probably should not even be compared to each other.

Bill
 

Lips

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.


:drool:



gifp1dcehz1.gif




.
 

luminari

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Bullzeyebill said:
Gentleman (ladies too?) back to the thread title. The U2 was perceived as brighter than the P1. If the U2 in question is indeed brighter than the P1 in question, then the P1 is not lumen rated properly. That is all we can really deduce from the original posters comments.

Actually, that's why I have a problem with this original post... I keep hearing the word "brighter" but in reality xiaowenzu was only comparing mcd (e.g. lux, not lumens). So lamenting that the P1D-CE is claimed at 135 lumens and the U2 is "only" 100 lumens, and then being thrilled at comparing mcd/lux is getting the units totally mixed up.

It's like saying he was sad because he just bought a Ferrari F430 and found out the Corvette has 400 ft-lbs of torque and the Ferrari only has 343 ft-lbs, but he just read some review site and found that the Corvette has 400 horsepower and the Ferrari F430 has 483 horsepower, so this news suddenly makes him estatic about buying the Ferrari and dance around the room??

If you weren't sure about the U2 in the first place, why do you need some number to make you like the U2 again? It didn't change how your U2 performed at all, unless you're just trying to mentally rationalize the purchase. I mean, please, they are both awesome and very different cars (and flashlights). From my personal use and all the great beam shots posted they both seem bright. Congratulations, <your light here> won!

Bullzeyebill said:
I might like the U2 and you might like the P1. So what? Actually, they are two very different lights and probably should not even be compared to each other.
Bill

Agreed, I should stop bumping this pointless thread. Oops, I bumped it again! :)
 

kingoftf

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My Microfire 500 HID is much brighter than the SF for the same price...... :laughing: :touche: :lolsign:
 

xiaowenzu

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txmatt said:
In part someone wanting validation that their $270, 2-cell Surefire (a very nice light) hasn't been outshined by a $70 upstart, single-cell light (also a very nice light but in a different category).


Lol, actually Fenix is no upstart. In terms of premium light brands, they are pretty much in the same league. In one corner you have Surefire, arguably the best manufacturer in America, reknown for their quality lights. In the other corner you have Fenix, the biggest, highest quality flashlight maker in China. Fenix showcases the best that China is currently offering to the flashlight world, and Surefire is doing the same. They are the best from each country. [size=-1]This is Fenix's motto on their website:

"Fenix aim to provide our products with advanced & innovative design, high quality, reasonable price and excellent service[/size]"

hardly the touting of a start-up! ;) Fenix's are as expensive in China when you take into account the exchange rate/wages, and that a $70 P1dce to the average Chinese in China is more expensive than an average Surefire to an American. So I think it's an honour to compare these two brands.
However, in terms of actual flashlight comparison, you guys are right - they are pretty much different lights, each having their own uses and purposes.

However, I was merely expressing my surprise that my friend's Fenix P1DCE rated at 135 Lumens is LESS brighter than my Surefire U2 rated at 100 Lumens to my eyeball. I never expected that to be the case. Anyways, thanks to your contributions, I learnt this is partly due to Fenix over-rating their LED output by about 25 Lumens. It also comes down to how a flashlight 'handles' the LEDs - the reflector, lens, circuitry, etc of the U2 throws a 'WALL OF LIGHT' but the Fenix (evident in the beamshot photo above) has a slightly brighter hotspot on the tree.
This explains the results at flashlightreview, where the Fenix scored higher in the hotspot, and it also explains the LEDMuseum findings where the U2 scored brighter due to it's 'WALL of light' factor. :)

Finally it also explains why my eyes see the U2 being brighter since it throws plenty of light around the hotspot...(in the beamshot photo above you can clearly see the surroundings are brighter on U2 - look at the chairs & slide) and apparently this is supported by many CPF'ers observation that their U2 is brighter than the Fenix P1DCE when it comes to eye observation. :)

Anyways, thanks guys for your information. I think this thread is now settled, and everyone is more informed, as have I been satisfied. :)
 
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chesterqw

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well, throw and overall output is very different.

a 5mm cheap white led can win a luxeon V in terms of throw when both are not lensed(no reflector used) but can never win it in terms of TOTAL output.
 

2xTrinity

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Lips said:
.


:drool:

<beamshot comparison>


.
It doesn't look to me like the U2 is putting out more lumens, moreso that the lumens are more efficiently distributed -- if you look at the sidespill along the floor in the beamshot, the Fenix is throwing out a LOT more light there, algother that's a lot of lumens since that's a fairly high intensity and a wider angle than the spill off the U2. That also means it's throwing out a lot more light up into space. Through use of a larger reflector or optic however to produce a "matching" beam pattern, I bet the two would look almost exactly the same, other than the color temperature difference, the U2 looked better in that respect as well.

Color temperature is important though. I have two Cree lights, identical current and reflectors -- about the same amount of lumens. One that I have that is warmer, and has a slightly yellow/green tint. The other is cool white, with a slight blue tint, looks better on a white wall. The warmer one though has much more realistic color rendering in real-world use -- it's the best of any LED I've seen by far, so it's a lot more useful with the same amount of light, and looks "brighter" when using it in the real world to look at plants and various other things that aren't blue or white. The only thing it woudl need to be perfect is a slight amount of extra red. I was pointing the light up at the ceiling, pushing 1A, fairly decent looking. I then turned on a small red coin cell light, and it was all of a sudden the nicest artifical illumination I'd ever seen.
 
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Art Vandelay

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Good point luminan. Also, as I posted earlier, according to the reviews at Flashlightreviews.com the estimated lumens of a U2 is 76.45 and the estimated lumens of a P1D-CE is 109.115. Based on that the U2 is overrated by 23.55 lumens and the P1D-CE is overrated by 25.885 lumens. Before you say the U2 was a weak one, take a look at the review at LED Museum. On each and every level, the U2 measurements are close on the two sites.

The results at flashlightreviews.com show that the P1D-CE has both more overall output, and more throw than the U2. The measurement of throw done at the LED museum's review is the same type of measurement as the measurement of throw done at flashlightreviews.com The difference between the two is that the LED museum uses a foot candle meter that measures the center of the beam at one foot, while flashlightreviews.com uses a lux meter which measures the center of the beam at one meter.

Take a look at the good photos Lips posted in this thread at post # 66. You can see a stop sign in the distance in the P1D-CE photo, but you can't see the stop sign in the U2 photo. That photo is not the best at showing throw. The ideal throw photo would have objects at various measured distances so you could how objects appeared at various distances. Photos provide very valuable information, they can show you a beam and you can determine how beautiful or bright they are in your opinion. If you want objective information, it's better to measure the beam with quantitative measures.:)


luminari said:
Actually, that's why I have a problem with this original post... I keep hearing the word "brighter" but in reality xiaowenzu was only comparing mcd (e.g. lux, not lumens). So lamenting that the P1D-CE is claimed at 135 lumens and the U2 is "only" 100 lumens, and then being thrilled at comparing mcd/lux is getting the units totally mixed up.

It's like saying he was sad because he just bought a Ferrari F430 and found out the Corvette has 400 ft-lbs of torque and the Ferrari only has 343 ft-lbs, but he just read some review site and found that the Corvette has 400 horsepower and the Ferrari F430 has 483 horsepower, so this news suddenly makes him estatic about buying the Ferrari and dance around the room??

If you weren't sure about the U2 in the first place, why do you need some number to make you like the U2 again? It didn't change how your U2 performed at all, unless you're just trying to mentally rationalize the purchase. I mean, please, they are both awesome and very different cars (and flashlights). From my personal use and all the great beam shots posted they both seem bright. Congratulations, <your light here> won!



Agreed, I should stop bumping this pointless thread. Oops, I bumped it again! :)
 

Outdoors Fanatic

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Art Vandelay said:
Good point luminan. Also, as I posted earlier, according to the reviews at Flashlightreviews.com the estimated lumens of a U2 is 76.45 and the estimated lumens of a P1D-CE is 109.115. Based on that the U2 is overrated by 23.55 lumens and the P1D-CE is overrated by 25.885 lumens. Before you say the U2 was a weak one, take a look at the review at LED Museum. On each and every level, the U2 measurements are close on the two sites.

The results at flashlightreviews.com show that the P1D-CE has both more overall output, and more throw than the U2. The measurement of throw done at the LED museum's review is the same type of measurement as the measurement of throw done at flashlightreviews.com The difference between the two is that the LED museum uses a foot candle meter that measures the center of the beam at one foot, while flashlightreviews.com uses a lux meter which measures the center of the beam at one meter.

Take a look at the good photos Lips posted in this thread at post # 66. You can see a stop sign in the distance in the P1D-CE photo, but you can't see the stop sign in the U2 photo. That photo is not the best at showing throw. The ideal throw photo would have objects at various measured distances so you could how objects appeared at various distances. Photos provide very valuable information, they can show you a beam and you can determine how beautiful or bright they are in your opinion. If you want objective information, it's better to measure the beam with quantitative measures.:)
according to the reviews at Flashlightreviews.com the estimated lumens of a U2 is 76.45 and the estimated lumens of a P1D-CE is 109.115. Based on that the U2 is overrated by 23.55 lumens and the P1D-CE is overrated by 25.885 lumens. Before you say the U2 was a weak one, take a look at the review at LED Museum. On each and every level, the U2 measurements are close on the two sites.

yeah, but you have to to take into account the fact that particular U2 was the earlier version, which as advertised as being a 65 lumens flashlight. Therefore, 76 lumens is above of what they stated. Now, on the other hand, you have a 110 lumens light sold as a 135 lumens. This is what set SureFire apart from the others.

The proof is here, quoted from Flashlight Reviews:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Quick Facts Table:
[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Review Date .............................[/font] April 2005
 
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Art Vandelay

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Surefire did not make a 65 lumen version of the L4 and U2, then come out with a 100 lumen version of each. They changed the numbers in the catalog without changing the lights. The change was to made to make the numbers more accurate. If you don't believe me you can search for posts at the time, if you don't believe the old posts you can call Surefire and ask yourself.

JAG said:
the answer from surefire:

"Sir,

The model L4 has always had a 100 lumen out put from the start. If you have any further questions please call us at 800-828-8809. SureFire strives to provide World class customer service to all of our customers.
SureFire technical support
1-800-828-8809
1-714-545-9444
1-714-545-9537(FAX)"


think it´s a little bit crazy

If you don't think the throw numbers from flashlightreviews.com numbers are valid because they are from an April 2005 review, compare them to the LED Museum review throw numbers. They are almost identical on each and every level. The LED Museum review has a date of February 28th, 2007.:)



Outdoors Fanatic said:
yeah, but you have to to take into account the fact that particular U2 was the earlier version, which as advertised as being a 65 lumens flashlight. Therefore, 76 lumens is above of what they stated. Now, on the other hand, you have a 110 lumens light sold as a 135 lumens. This is what set SureFire apart from the others.

The proof is here, quoted from Flashlight Reviews:


The "proof" was just the date of the review April 2005.
 

SmithB

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I'll take whatever is comparable, yet still quality, for a cheaper price.

Surefire's price point is whack. I'd take the Fenix regardless if it doesn't appear to be quite as bright.

Silly argument nonetheless.
 

Outdoors Fanatic

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Art Vandelay said:
Surefire did not make a 65 lumen version of the L4 and U2, then come out with a 100 lumen version of each. They changed the numbers in the catalog without changing the lights. The change was to made to make the numbers more accurate. If you don't believe me you can search for posts at the time, if you don't believe the old posts you can call Surefire and ask yourself.



If you don't think the throw numbers from flashlightreviews.com numbers are valid because they are from an April 2005 review, compare them to the LED Museum review throw numbers. They are almost identical on each and every level. The LED Museum review has a date of February 28th, 2007.:)




The "proof" was just the date of the review April 2005.
It's common knowledge that in the year of 2005 the U2's were rated at 65 lumens. I know they did not change the light, however, the Lux 5 at that time were different than the latest batches. They probably started receiving better binned LEDs from Lumileds, that's why the upgraded the catalog to 100 lumens.
 

Art Vandelay

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Call Surefire.

Edit: Here is an old post from somebody who would know about the updated measurement system at Surefire.:) http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1434693&postcount=9


Outdoors Fanatic said:
It's common knowledge that in the year of 2005 the U2's were rated at 65 lumens. I know they did not change the light, however, the Lux 5 at that time were different than the latest batches. They probably started receiving better binned LEDs from Lumileds, that's why the upgraded the catalog to 100 lumens.
 
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xiaowenzu

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Outdoors Fanatic said:
It's common knowledge that in the year of 2005 the U2's were rated at 65 lumens. I know they did not change the light, however, the Lux 5 at that time were different than the latest batches. They probably started receiving better binned LEDs from Lumileds, that's why the upgraded the catalog to 100 lumens.

That's probably correct. They don't call it Luxeon lottery for nothing. Lol :laughing: But IMO, they are more consisent nowadays in terms of light output.

People please read my last post, the reason that Flashlight review got different result is because he measured the hotspot, and Ledmuseum measured the total area AROUND the hotspot, which the U2 scored higher. The Fenix output in both reviews on every level of measurements are consistent with each other. I must say though, both are pretty bright lights, imo! :D :D
 
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xiaowenzu

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2xTrinity said:
It doesn't look to me like the U2 is putting out more lumens, moreso that the lumens are more efficiently distributed -- if you look at the sidespill along the floor in the beamshot, the Fenix is throwing out a LOT more light there
Actually, if you look at the area around the trees you can see U2 throwing FAR more light than the Fenix. I do agree that the U2 is more efficiently distributed.. it must be due the the inherit design of the LUX V's.
 

robm

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People please read my last post, the reason that Flashlight review got different result is because he measured the hotspot, and Ledmuseum measured the total area AROUND the hotspot, which the U2 scored higher. The Fenix output in both reviews on every level of measurements are consistent with each other.

Actually there are flashlightreviews 'stats' for both hotspot/throw AND for total light output (comparable to lumens figures). The P1D-CE scored higher in both.
I am not sure what the LED museum mcd figures effectively measure.

I think the reason this thread is dragging on (as many have stated earlier) is simply that the title is a bit 'confused' - lumens are not used to measure brightness (although saying that, I don't even think there is an SI unit for brightness ;)
 
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