New 4Sevens Quark 123 Mini

[Marduke]

This new mini series is very appealing to me, and actually more of what I was hoping for with the AAA Preon series as far as small-as-possible size and knurling. The only thing I'm a little uncertain about is how the tint will be with these new R-series emitters. For those of you who already have some of the new lights, how do you find the R tints to be in everyday use? Any disappointments? Then again, I will never know how I like it until I get one and try it. If I don't, most all the reputable vendors will allow a return, a point that's often lost with us obsessive flashlight choosers.🙂

I have several protected RCR 123A's that are looking for a little companion and the 4 Sevens Mini 123 really seems the most qualified. Now if I can just find an after-market clip.

Flux bins and tint bins are completely independant. Don't confuse one with the other.

 

[jumpin jack flash]

Flux bins and tint bins are completely independant. Don't confuse one with the other.

Thanks for the clarification.

How does one find the tint information for, say, an XP-E R2 or the newer XP-G R5?

 

[davidt1]

The previous comparison list is incomplete as it did not include that fact that the ITP lights have a clip, a feature important to a lot of people. The full suites of emergency modes on the 4Sevens light should be counted as a plus.

The Fenix clip will fit a lot of lights. Tell 4Sevens that is what you are going to use on his lights if he doesn't provide clips. I sure wouldn't want the Fenix name on my lights. As an experiment, I tried to use my Maratac light without the clip for one day. It just did not work as well. So a clip is a must for me.

 

[Bernie O]

Maybe I just missed it, but what if any accessories do come with these lights ?

 

[kwkarth]

I'm having a hard time choosing too.

AA:
Quark takes 14500; iTP doesn't --> Quark
Quark tailstands; iTP doesn't --> Quark
I prefer the Quark's knurling --> Quark
Quark = XPG; iTP = XPE --> depends
Quark can be brighter and floodier; iTP will be more focused --> depends
Quark = US$ 39 shipped; iTP = US$ 27 shipped --> iTP
Quark has hidden disco modes.
Levels are a tie (with NiMH). Size is a tie.

123:
Quark tailstands; iTP doesn't --> Quark
I prefer the Quark's knurling --> Quark
Quark = XPG; iTP = XPE --> depends
Quark can be brighter and floodier; iTP will be more focused --> depends
Quark = US$ 39 shipped; iTP = US$ 27 shipped --> iTP
Quark has hidden disco modes.
Levels are a tie. Size is a tie.

Value is the key here.

Buying both, it would be ~ US$ 80 for the Quarks against ~ US$ 55 for the iTP. That is another iTP for the same money.

Tough choice. 😕

Edit:
Besides, I have to consider the AAAs too. I already EDC an iTP AAA in my pants pocket and carry a 18650 MG L-Mini II (to be replaced by a 18650 Quark) in my briefcase or backpack. Neither the 123 nor the AA can replace any of my two EDCs, since they don't meet my requirements (size for one and loooong runtime for the other).

So I'm not jumping on the preorder. l'll just wait for actual availability and decide then.

• How can you say the levels are a tie when the spec for the Quark is OTF lumens and the the ITP, it's emitter lumens?
• You can expect at least 30% loss for the ITP, probably more like 40%.
• The "window" may be plastic in the ITP, not glass, which besides being scratch prone, will increase the loss of lumens.

 

[Moonshadow]

Flux bins and tint bins are completely independant. Don't confuse one with the other.

Strictly speaking, that's true - two separate systems, one for colour and one for brightness/efficiency.

But in practical terms there is a correlation. As with any manufacturing process, pushing technology to its limits in one direction (in this case to get the highest flux bin) means you have less control over the other parameters (for example, tint).

So for the time being the latest and brightest 'R' rated flux bins only come in a limited range of tints. My own experience is that I don't like the rather yellow R2 in my newest Nitecore as much as the crisp white WC tint in the Q5 versions, but as far as I can tell there is no way to guarantee a WC tint in the R2 Nitecores.

And you can't have missed all the discussion over the XP-Gs and how they currently only come in the 'cooler' tints. A lot of people are asking for warm or neutral XP-Gs, but there's no point as they simply aren't available yet.

So like it or not, there is a correlation.

 

[Marduke]

Thanks for the clarification.

How does one find the tint information for, say, an XP-E R2 or the newer XP-G R5?

It has to be specified.

 

[Marduke]

Strictly speaking, that's true - two separate systems, one for colour and one for brightness/efficiency.

But in practical terms there is a correlation. As with any manufacturing process, pushing technology to its limits in one direction (in this case to get the highest flux bin) means you have less control over the other parameters (for example, tint).

So for the time being the latest and brightest 'R' rated flux bins only come in a limited range of tints. My own experience is that I don't like the rather yellow R2 in my newest Nitecore as much as the crisp white WC tint in the Q5 versions, but as far as I can tell there is no way to guarantee a WC tint in the R2 Nitecores.

And you can't have missed all the discussion over the XP-Gs and how they currently only come in the 'cooler' tints. A lot of people are asking for warm or neutral XP-Gs, but there's no point as they simply aren't available yet.

So like it or not, there is a correlation.

That would be confusing availability with correlation. Knowing one part of the designation can give you a RANGE of possible corresponding flux/tint bins, but you cannot determine any direct correlation.

 

[Moonshadow]

Exactly - the availability of tints depends on the flux bin. That's not confusing, it is explaining.

I said that in practical terms, there was a correlation, not that there was a direct correlation.

For a good example, compare these adverts for the two variants of the Nitecore D10:

D10 Q5 Version

D10 R2 Version

If you scroll down to the bit where the LED emitter is specified, you will notice an interesting difference:

Q5 Version:
Emitter: Cree XR-E Q5 WC LED

R2 Version:
Emitter: Cree R2 LED

The 'WC' in the Q5 listing is specifying the tint bin. In this case, 'WC' refers to a cool tint that I see as a crisp pure white (colour perception is a very subjective thing and some people think it has a bluish tinge).

Notice the interesting omission in the R2 listing ? That's right, the tint bin isn't specified. So if you order the Q5, you are guaranteed to get a specific tint (WC) - but if you order the R2, the tint isn't specified, and you don't know what you'll end up with. I have a rather yellowy one, for example.

Push the limits on the brightness and you have less control over the tint that you can specify.

 

[Marduke]

Exactly - the availability of tints depends on the flux bin. That's not confusing, it is explaining.

I said that in practical terms, there was a correlation, not that there was a direct correlation.

For a good example, compare these adverts for the two variants of the Nitecore D10:

D10 Q5 Version

D10 R2 Version

If you scroll down to the bit where the LED emitter is specified, you will notice an interesting difference:

The 'WC' in the Q5 listing is specifying the tint bin. In this case, 'WC' refers to a cool tint that I see as a crisp pure white (colour perception is a very subjective thing and some people think it has a bluish tinge).

Notice the interesting omission in the R2 listing ? That's right, the tint bin isn't specified. So if you order the Q5, you are guaranteed to get a specific tint (WC) - but if you order the R2, the tint isn't specified, and you don't know what you'll end up with. I have a rather yellowy one, for example.

Push the limits on the brightness and you have less control over the tint that you can specify.

And when you have less control, you have a greater range, so you have even less correlation between flux and tint bins. You could receive an LED from either end of the available spectrum, so you are even less able to say "xx flux bin tends to be xx tint bin"

 

[Moonshadow]

Marduke: sorry, that line of reasoning doesn't hold water.

As you are well aware and I have already patiently explained, the XP-Gs are currently only available in cooler tints and no warm or neutral ones - so a narrower range not a greater one.

I like a good debate as much as anyone, but you are arguing semantics now and we're in danger of dragging the thread off course. Enough.

 

[apontes]

• How can you say the levels are a tie when the spec for the Quark is OTF lumens and the the ITP, it's emitter lumens?
• You can expect at least 30% loss for the ITP, probably more like 40%.
• The "window" may be plastic in the ITP, not glass, which besides being scratch prone, will increase the loss of lumens.

You're right, of course. I overlooked the emitter x OTF part.

 

[Marduke]

Marduke: sorry, that line of reasoning doesn't hold water.

As you are well aware and I have already patiently explained, the XP-Gs are currently only available in cooler tints and no warm or neutral ones - so a narrower range not a greater one.

I like a good debate as much as anyone, but you are arguing semantics now and we're in danger of dragging the thread off course. Enough.

But without knowing the specific tint bin, you have no idea what tint you will receive for a given flux bin within the "cool tint" range.

Currently, the supply of XP-G R5's are predominantly WC and WD tint equivalents, so saying XP-G's are inherently "greenish", which has been the common theme as of late, is incorrect.

 

[eddyg]

Currently, the supply of XP-G R5's are predominantly WC and WD tint equivalents, so saying XP-G's are inherently "greenish", which has been the common theme as of late, is incorrect.

A lot of "green tint R5's" has been in conjunction with the Ti Quarks. I like to know the tints of all my LEDs whenever possible, so I asked David if all of the Ti's were built from a specific bin (since there were only 750 made, I hoped they all came from a single bin) so I could put it in my "flashlight notes". But unfortunately he replied saying:

The tints for the Ti Quarks falls in 1S, 1B, 1A, 1D, 2A, 1T, 1C

so I have no idea what tints are in my Ti Quarks. 🙁

But back to the "green" issue... if you look at this handy bin reference that overlays the Cree bin labels onto a CIE chromaticity xy color chart, the 1S and 1T bins are definitely leaning towards "greenish", and as a whole, the mix of tints David lists seems most closely aligned with WF/WG than WC/WD. In addition, all of the R5's that Nailbender got were 1C, which is right in the middle of the WF/WG tints.

 

[fugleebeast]

We also don't know what the PWM is like on the iTP lights whereas David has said that the Quark Mini will use the same circuit as the Preon, 2600hz.

Since the new iTP lights are L-M-H, I would hope that they've also increased the PWM from what it's at on the aaa version. If they haven't, then that's another major plus for the Quarks, in my opinion.

 

[recDNA]

A lot of "green tint R5's" has been in conjunction with the Ti Quarks. I like to know the tints of all my LEDs whenever possible, so I asked David if all of the Ti's were built from a specific bin (since there were only 750 made, I hoped they all came from a single bin) so I could put it in my "flashlight notes". But unfortunately he replied saying:so I have no idea what tints are in my Ti Quarks. 🙁

But back to the "green" issue... if you look at this handy bin reference that overlays the Cree bin labels, the 1S and 1T bins are definitely leaning towards "greenish", and as a whole, the mix of tints David lists seems most closely aligned with WF/WG than WC/WD. In addition, all of the R5's that Nailbender got were 1C, which is right in the middle of the WF/WG tints.

Good find! That helps explain why my Quark Ti is a sicly yellowish-green while others say theirs are a minty green. Both colors would be included in that list.

Are the Minis from the same group of bins? Are those cheaper or just easier to find?

 

[Beamhead]

Good find! That helps explain why my Quark Ti is a sicly yellowish-green while others say theirs are a minty green. Both colors would be included in that list.

Are the Minis from the same group of bins? Are those cheaper or just easier to find?

Nice find indeed, my Ti Quark when directly compared to another known tint is in the 1s-1t range, but I have no problem with the tint.

 

[Tixx]

I'm having a hard time choosing too.

AA:
Quark takes 14500; iTP doesn't --> Quark
Quark tailstands; iTP doesn't --> Quark
I prefer the Quark's knurling --> Quark
Quark = XPG; iTP = XPE --> depends
Quark can be brighter and floodier; iTP will be more focused --> depends
Quark = US$ 39 shipped; iTP = US$ 27 shipped --> iTP
Quark has hidden disco modes.
Levels are a tie (with NiMH). Size is a tie.

123:
Quark tailstands; iTP doesn't --> Quark
I prefer the Quark's knurling --> Quark
Quark = XPG; iTP = XPE --> depends
Quark can be brighter and floodier; iTP will be more focused --> depends
Quark = US$ 39 shipped; iTP = US$ 27 shipped --> iTP
Quark has hidden disco modes.
Levels are a tie. Size is a tie.



Value is the key here.

Buying both, it would be ~ US$ 80 for the Quarks against ~ US$ 55 for the iTP. That is another iTP for the same money.

Tough choice. 😕

On the miniQ123 since lumens are OTF for the Quark, that goes to the Quark and the Quark is smaller. Had my order in for the A1 and had to cancel. In fact I cancelled another pre-order to add the miniQ AA. Strobes also go to Quark. Also CPF8 gets you 8% off of the miniQ's so that is $72 for the Quarks.

 

[eddyg]

Are the Minis from the same group of bins? Are those cheaper or just easier to find?

I don't think so. I had a discussion with Nailbender about this before the XP-G's became available and if I understood what he was saying, Cree doesn't allow you to pick a specific bin -- you just get to order by "kit", which contains a pretty wide range of tints.

If you go to Cree's web page for the XP-G, download the "Binning & Labeling" PDF, and go to page 19 -- "Standard Order Codes and Bins (XP-G ANSI Cool White)", you'll be able to see the kits Cree offers by flux bin. For the R5 bins, there are three kits listed (but who knows what Cree actually had available at initial release.) Anyway, you can see the tints included in each kit. And my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll necessarily get ALL of those tints in your order, just that your kit will come from that selection of tints.

I'm definitely not blaming 4Sevents at all for the Ti Qaurk tints -- it seems like they just got the R5 flux bins and put in the LEDs that Cree gave them. Being an "early adopter" is exciting and fun, but it is also has some potential risk (anybody still got an HD-DVD player? 🙂) I'm sure as time goes on, tint selection and availability will improve, much like it has for prior generation LEDs...

 

[Patriot]

This light has my full attention.