NEW bicycle light UI - UIB2

[Darell]

OK, I've done this once before, and apparently didn't learn my lesson. So I'm doing it again. Those of you who are familiar with the Bflex, know that George and I made a Bicycle UI for it. That circuit now has a shared menu, and a choice of three UIs. Fixed, portable and bicycle. And they all work great, if I do say so myself... and I do.

So it turns out that most folks (or at least a large percentage) who are buying the Bflex are using it for bicycle lighting. So George and I agreed that a bicycle-only UI would be in order. In fact, we even have a secret weapon in the wings who is designing a new bicycle light around this board, but that's all top secret and hush-hush, so don't make me keep talking about that until the time is right. I'd hate to have to kill you. Edit: The word is out. It is the MinT, shown here: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=172053

The advantage of a bicycle-only UI is that the menu won't need to be shared, and you won't have to stumble over menu options that make no sense on the bicycle. The menu will be easier to enter than in the current UIB that needed to use the same scheme as the other UI's. The menu also won't be needed as much. The three-UI Bflex is very flexible and fantastic for so many uses. But once you put a Bflex into a light housing, you aren't going to use the other UIs... so UIB2 will be born.

As I said initially, I've done this before. But I didn't do it here - I did it on the MountainBikeReviewForums, and got some great input from bikers who are also lighting guys (many of you are here, I see!). This time, I'm going to conduct the process on CPF to get input from light guys who are also bicyclists. Should be interesting. To see how it went before, go here

Please note that I'll be copying and pasting from the initial post to avoid cramping my fingers.

-----------------------
Now is your chance to be heard!

Everything that the uController on the bFlex can do is controlled by a single momentary button that can be mounted remotely, or stay on the board. There are two ways to enter info via that button. A Click and a Press. Two distinct actions, one that releases the button immediately after use, and the other that holds the button down for a moment until the effect is achieved. George and I have spent countless hours, and have refined after many months and even years how the UIF and UIP function with that single button. I've learned quite a bit in this process, and would also like some fresh ideas from folks who aren't as mired in the details as I can get.

In my next post, I will give the outline of what I'm thinking, and see how it floats. I will also have some questions to see what sort of direction this should go.

Everybody have your thinking caps on? Let's have your input! There are no promises that your ideas will be incorporated, but I can guarantee that it'll help shape the final product. I have plenty of ideas on how to incorporate most of this, and I know from experience much of what does and does not work in the real world. I also have experience actually using my first UIB - and what I do with this UI will be largely based on the improvements that I'd like to see in the first UIB.

Let me be very clear here that I do not do the coding or the circuit design. That's all George, and he stamps his name on the boards to prove it! Plus he's reading this, so I can't secretly take more than my share of credit. My job is to do all the *really* hard thinking. I try to figure out what the user will want, and how to make it the most practical to use. Then George translates it into code, and we both program a board and test for hours. Some days we'll go through countless versions of code and too many hundreds of clicks. Eventually we get it right... and that's the process I'd like to start all over again with this new UIB2. So bring it on.

 

[Darell]

OPERATONAL CONSIDERATIONS
Updated 07.19 to add strobe control

Menu. The menu will be entered via a power-applied sequence (You will have a window of time to enter the menu after applying power. You press the button during the first three seconds). My initial menu items are:

Force (if set, the light always comes on at this level. If not set, it will always start at low when you click it on).
Vstat (with multi-color LED option). This is how you are alerted to low battery voltage. Think Fuel gauge.
Vset (Here you set the danger V level where you want to be alerted - different for different battery configurations. If light is offered with a battery pack, this will be pre-set)
Max drive current
PowerON mode (Does the light come on when power is first applied, or does it stay off? Can be used to operate the light via a simply power switch after progamming has been done via the main clickie. This works fine if all you want is one level! Would make the light 100% idiot-proof.

Basic operation:
When off:
- click - on constant (to low if no force is set, or to force level if set)
- press - on strobe (force acts the same way)

when on:
- click gets brighter and stops at brightest (brief flash indicator when top is reached). There are five levels available.
- press gets dimmer and stops at dimmest (brief flash indicator when bottom is reached) for one beat, and then light goes off if you keep pressing for another second. The timing for these down steps would be maybe 10% longer than what we have now to make it easier to control while rolling. constant and strobe will work the same way.

Low will be some pre-set current no matter where max current is set. Maybe 50mA? And highest will be the where Max drive current is set. The intermediate steps will be logarithmic to appear evenly spaced to the human eye - just like in the other UIs.

Condensed version for constant mode:
Click turns on and then goes brighter.
Press goes dimmer and can then turn off.

I found that I wanted MORE levels than UIB offered, and I wanted to be able to go one step higher or lower instantly, without having to cycle through the levels I didn't want. I thought simple was the hands-down winner, but after using the UIB for a while, I realized that I wanted more control. If I'm at medium, and realize I have more light than I need, it is a PITA to click UP through hight, and back down to low to get what I want. And we still need it relatively difficult to turn off by accident.

A couple of questions:

1. Should we also make it harder to turn on? Maybe a double-click? I don't think that is needed since it will always be easy to just remove power for transportation and storage.

2. Do we need/want a sleep mode? I'm thinking no.

3. Strobe for the road? Who would use this? Important to incorporate? We have it in UIB, and we can certainly add it to UIB2 in much the same way. We could even enter it with a press from off to distinguish it from the constant mode that uses a click from off.

4. Five levels makes me very happy, and it is what I intend for this light. Is anybody afraid of that many levels? I won't do more, though I may consider fewer. Three in UIB were too few for my taste.

 

[dom]

Hi Darell
Top job by you and George BTW
I leave my light hooked up all the time on the bike since i use it as a commuter as well. The double click to on sounds like a good idea to keep -too easy in the daylight to have the light on accidentally without noticing.

The scrolling levels with press and click sound like a good idea.Is it as quick to change as the 3 level option?

I haven't used strobe since i've had the bFlex -not with the brightness you can get with todays LEDs -no-one has tried to run me over since i've had these bright lights.
Everyone tried to run me over when i had a blinky light and halogens.

Can we get our old bFlex's upgraded?


Cheers
Dom

 

[Low_Rider]

Nice one, going by previous experience this should be a great thread! :thumbsup:

I still can't believe I haven't got around to playing with a board with the first UIB yet!

Is there any chance of an MTBR cross post, or would two independent threads be a bit much? I might bump the old thread with a reference to CPF if you like?

I'll have a think about things and come back with a constructive post. :thinking:

Dave.

 

[Darell]

I leave my light hooked up all the time on the bike since i use it as a commuter as well.

Hmmm. Well, there's no accounting for crazy people! I sure don't leave $300 worth of light on my bike when I don't need it!

The double click to on sounds like a good idea to keep -too easy in the daylight to have the light on accidentally without noticing.

OK, one vote for a harder turn-on sequence.

The scrolling levels with press and click sound like a good idea.Is it as quick to change as the 3 level option?

As quick or quicker, yes. Currently if you want to go a level lower, you need to first go higher, and around the cycle until you get to the level you like. If you over-shoot your level, you go around the cycle again. The new way allows you to go up or down in steps - directly from the level you are currently using. As you come to a very slow climb, you want to save battery, and don't need to see far ahead. You press and drop a level. When you get to the top, you plan on more speed, and click up a level or two.

I haven't used strobe since i've had the bFlex -not with the brightness you can get with todays LEDs -no-one has tried to run me over since i've had these bright lights.
Everyone tried to run me over when i had a blinky light and halogens.

And one vote against strobe. Yay.

Can we get our old bFlex's upgraded?

Absolutely. You're got at soldering SM sense resistors, right? KIDDING!

 

[Darell]

Nice one, going by previous experience this should be a great thread! :thumbsup:

Yeah, I got a lot out of the last one. These are a lot of work though so I need some recovery time between them The hardest part is pretending like I'm at least considering adding SOS so I don't hurt anybody's feelings when it inevitably comes up.

Is there any chance of an MTBR cross post, or would two independent threads be a bit much? I might bump the old thread with a reference to CPF if you like?

They can certainly be pointed here. No way I'd be able to keep up with two threads! I can barely handle one.

I'll have a think about things and come back with a constructive post. :thinking:

Be gentle with me. I bruise easily.

 

[Darell]

I added PowerON mode back into the menu. I think there is a need for it, and we might as well have the option even if it is NOT needed.

 

[Low_Rider]

They can certainly be pointed here. No way I'd be able to keep up with two threads! I can barely handle one.

Cross posted to let the MTBR boys know what's going on.

Be gentle with me. I bruise easily.

I'm still devising a nice multiple nested table solution for you.


I do have a couple of quick thoughts / points to start with.


You mention multi colour "Vstat" options, so I assume George has a few more pins available and would have enough to drive a RGB indication setup in future board revisions?

If that were to be the case, an independent control of voltage thresholds for each colour would be nice, possibly along with colour behaviour, say flashing or constant adjustment for each colour?

"Force" and "Power On" options are mandatory, but as you say, I can't see that "Sleep" would be needed.

Five levels are fine, as long as we still have the option to remove or adjust those levels like UIB1 if I remember correctly.

Double click turn on, yeah-no-yeah, I personally don't have a need for it but I can see that it would be useful for some systems.

And we both feel the same way with Strobes / SOS... :devil:


Cheers, Dave.

 

[Szemhazai]

For me the best set will be :

Press -> On
click - 30%
click - 60%
click - 100%
Press short -> strobe (for the most time I am not using it).
Press long -> Off

 

[Darell]

If that were to be the case, an independent control of voltage thresholds for each colour would be nice, possibly along with colour behaviour, say flashing or constant adjustment for each colour?

This starts to get very complicated very quickly. And I think it is overkill. It is all a big guessing game anyway. As long as you set the "dead" (red) voltage, I think we can have the circuit just automatically add a bit for almost dead (yellow) and happy (green) indicators. The whole idea here is just to warn you that you are approaching your damaging voltage. And then you get red when you are there. I want it to be only as configurable as it reasonably needs to be.

Five levels are fine, as long as we still have the option to remove or adjust those levels like UIB1 if I remember correctly.

The whole idea here is to have them all (easily) available all the time. No option to remove them - you can just ignore them. You don't have to cycle through them all so they don't get in the way as before. And since there will be five levels from which to choose (like in UIB) there's no need to adjust them in the menu. I found that I wanted different levels than I'd given myself - and didn't want to fuss with the menu while riding! This way they're all at your fingertips. This, really, is the main reason I'm doing this new UI. Five levels available all the time - in either direction.

 

[Darell]

For me the best set will be :

Press -> On
click - 30%
click - 60%
click - 100%
Press short -> strobe (for the most time I am not using it).
Press long -> Off

The levels will be logarithmic, so they will appear to be evenly spaced. Making them some hard percentage doesn't work out so well we've found.

Using timing sequences (long press does something different than a short press. How long is long and how short is short?) - is fraught (I don't use that word much) with problems. Too much to remember, and in this case - too easy to get to strobe. Would you want strobe available?

My goal is to have one button action do one thing consistently. Same thing no matter how many times you click, and the same different thing no matter how long you press. In this case, no matter where you are, clicking will always make the thing brighter (even from off) until you hit the top. And pressing will always make the light dimmer until you turn it off. No timing to have to worry about.

If we want a strobe mode, I can use a similar sequence from UIB. That isn't a problem. And we we want strobe mode to be really easy to enter - we'll press from off

 

[tspoon]

Sometimes when road riding a strobe can be handy, usually at dusk or dawn. You don't need the light to see by yet, but it would be great to let car drivers know you're there. The strobe is very attention getting, while not using as much battery power. To further save battery capacity, the strobe may not need to be pulsed on at 100% power.

edit - maybe a setup option to lock the strobe out if not needed.

 

[Szemhazai]

Using timing sequences (long press does something different than a short press. How long is long and how short is short?) - is fraught (I don't use that word much) with problems. Too much to remember, and in this case - too easy to get to strobe. Would you want strobe available?

To be honest - I totally reject "strobe" mode :thumbsdown: but some guys need it (to flash chicks outside the pub :nana Strobe on 3xQ4 XR-E won't be nice for a biker riding from opposite side... In addition, in the city I can see this kind of behavior very often.

For me the easiest set to remember wil be :
On/Off - on Press
3 modes - on Click

How long... :thinking: In some CatEye's to turn off the light you have to press the button for about 3 seconds - I think that's OK to not turn off the light accidentally.

 

[Zero_Enigma]

I did a little thinking about the modes I would use. I am a fair weather rider and a 3 season rider. I ride road and trail paths. I have done little offroading but am working on that. I am slowly working towards riding four seasons and in all weather.

I've been riding serious for a year now. I second the strobe mode as in my area (Toronto) I've seen a lot of commuters with strobe mode on. I've used the strobe mode myself and have found that dawn/dusk they are very useful and also especially when you're in the traffic and a car is about to turn right that strobe mode has saved me a few times as the driver stops and sees the strobe light. The strobe tends to wake up the driver that's busy with the cellphone/mp3/radio/shaving/lipstick from my experience. In fog situations a strobe mode has saved me a couple times and I have heard input from others about powerful lights in fog situations for safety.

Having used a few bike lights already I kind of figured out what modes I need and what modes I don't need. While more modes are nice they're just a pain to cycle through.

This is the configuration I would like to see :

Click + Hold = On/Off
Click1 = Strobe (full power @ 1000mA)
Click2*=Strobe/SOS (low power @ 350mA)
Click2 = Full power @ 1000mA
Click3 = Mid power @ 500mA
Click4 = Low power (say something really low that you can still read/walk with should you have a flat and need to walk out. I'm thinking something like err.. 50-100mA??)

*optional

Anyways that's my input. 5 modes seems good for me and not really over cycling the modes and makes it not long for cycling the modes. I listed the modes in order or my view of priority as I think most people would like to have full power first then dim the light down as they need it. Then again when I think about it if the battery is low then perhaps reversing my order on the full power to low power may be better.


Zero_Enigma

 

[Darell]

Sometimes when road riding a strobe can be handy, usually at dusk or dawn. You don't need the light to see by yet, but it would be great to let car drivers know you're there. The strobe is very attention getting, while not using as much battery power. To further save battery capacity, the strobe may not need to be pulsed on at 100% power.

edit - maybe a setup option to lock the strobe out if not needed.

If we add strobe, it will be out of the way as it is on the UIB. You won't stumble upon it accidentally, and you certainly won't have to cycle through it. Also, the strobe brightness will be adjustable just like in the constant mode. No way you'll want multi emitters strobing at, say 1000ma!

The way I entered strobe in the UIB - which we could copy here - is to press until the light turns off, and keep pressing for another reasonable amount of time until you reach strobe mode. After you turn off from strobe mode (the same way you turn off from constant), it would always default back to constant the next time you turn on. So in summary, to get into strobe mode, you would click on into contant, then press until constant dims and goes out and then comes back on again in strobe. Once in strobe you can click for brighter and press for dimmer and off. Force would work the same way here as in constant.

How's that sound?

 

[Darell]

Having used a few bike lights already I kind of figured out what modes I need and what modes I don't need. While more modes are nice they're just a pain to cycle through.

Click + Hold = On/Off
Click1 = Strobe (full power @ 1000mA)
Click2*=Strobe/SOS (low power @ 350mA)
Click2 = Full power @ 1000mA
Click3 = Mid power @ 500mA
Click4 = Low power (say something really low that you can still read/walk with should you have a flat and need to walk out. I'm thinking something like err.. 50-100mA??)

Oooh! At the risk of sounding harsh, there's no way that I'll want to cycle through any strobe modes. Strobe and constant will be separate. And strobing a modern emitter at 1000mA is gonna tick people off enough to want to kill you, me thinks! Don't want that.

It certainly sounds like strobe is still needed/wanted by most. The question now is how easy should I make it to enter strobe mode?

Options are:

1. As described above. Click on to constant then press for dim->off->strobe mode.

or

2. The super-easy way. Press from off and enter strobe mode. I'm starting to lean this way. While I hate to waste that press, I do very much like the simplicity.

Let me say again, that I REALLY don't like having to cycle through levels or modes I don't want. When I'm riding at a certain light level and something changes, I want to immediately go up or down a level or two. I NEVER want to cycle the wrong way, through strobe options, through off, etc. I just want to get to the new level and keep going.

Thanks for all the input guys. I know I'm starting to sound like "My way only." I am listening - there are just some things that I know I want in this UI.

 

[Darell]

Sometimes when road riding a strobe can be handy, usually at dusk or dawn. You don't need the light to see by yet, but it would be great to let car drivers know you're there. The strobe is very attention getting, while not using as much battery power. To further save battery capacity, the strobe may not need to be pulsed on at 100% power.

edit - maybe a setup option to lock the strobe out if not needed.

Yeah. looks like strobe is in. No need to lock it out if it is just sitting there somewhat hidden until you need it. Nobody can complain about having it as an option if they never have to see it. And it'll always be there for anybody who does need it. I was half-way trying to avoid including it this time around. Overruled!

 

[Darell]

One question on strobe, that we had an issue with in UIB.

How do we indicate low voltage in strobe mode? Make it go constant? Make it skip an on flash? Explode? (my personal favorite).

 

[Zero_Enigma]

One question on strobe, that we had an issue with in UIB.

How do we indicate low voltage in strobe mode? Make it go constant? Make it skip an on flash? Explode? (my personal favorite).

If you make it explode make it blink 3 times, 2 times, then 1 time so you have enough time to bail or huck it like a grenade. :naughty: :twothumbs

I think making it go constant then strobe again would be a good idea. Say make it go constant for 1 second then go back to strobe then go constant again for 1 second. I'm sure the rider would notice the voltage is low by around 3-5 seconds when riding in low traffic or in about 10-15 seconds if in traffic.

Oooh! At the risk of sounding harsh, there's no way that I'll want to cycle through any strobe modes. Strobe and constant will be separate. And strobing a modern emitter at 1000mA is gonna tick people off enough to want to kill you, me thinks! Don't want that.

Sounds like strobe is still needed/wanted, so we'll will include it. The question now is how easy should I make it to enter?

Options are:
1. As described above. Click on to constant then press for dim->off->strobe mode.

or

2. The super-easy way. Press from off and enter strobe mode. I'm starting to lean this way. While I hate to waste that press, I do very much like the simplicity.

Let me say again, that I REALLY don't like having to cycle through levels or modes I don't want. When I'm riding at a certain light level and something changes, I want to immediately go up or down a level or two. I NEVER want to cycle the wrong way, through strobe options, through off, etc. I just want to get to the new level and keep going.

Thanks for all the input guys. I know I'm starting to sound like "My way only." I am listening - there are just some things that I know I want in this UI.

Well just my input mate. Everyone rides in different areas. In my area it's all rather pricks and such driving around and many people here have thier airhorns turned to max to wake the damn drivers up. I guess different enviroments.

Now that you mention it, yah a seperate mode for strobe would be nice. I would still like say a 3 power setting 350/500 (or 700)/1000mA for the strobe mode.

So if I'm reading it right the modes would be more like this then?

Mode 1, TO-SEE mode

Click + hold = On
Click1 = Full or low power first
Click2 = Mid power
Click3 = Low or full power last
Click = Repeat
Click + hold = Off (and changes the cycle to strobe mode on next power up)


Mode 2, BE-SEEN mode

Click + hold = On
Click1 = Full power strobe (more reserved for foul weather ie. heavy rain storms, thick fog, snow)
Click2 = Mid power strobe (most likely daily use mode dawn/dusk/heavy-traffic)
Click3 = Low power SOS or Strobe
Click = Repeat
Click + hold = Off (and cycles to TO-SEE mode)


I'll read this later as I'm tired and ready for sleep. How long did the last board take from suggestions to production? 6months?


Zero_Enigma

 

[Darell]

If you make it explode make it blink 3 times, 2 times, then 1 time so you have enough time to bail or huck it like a grenade. :naughty: :twothumbs

Noted!

I think making it go constant then strobe again would be a good idea. Say make it go constant for 1 second then go back to strobe then go constant again for 1 second. I'm sure the rider would notice the voltage is low by around 3-5 seconds when riding in low traffic or in about 10-15 seconds if in traffic.

My hope is that most people will use the "new" multi-color LED option for the fuel gauge, and then this won't matter as much.

Well just my input mate. Everyone rides in different areas.

Absolutely. No worries!

So if I'm reading it right the modes would be more like this then?

Mode 1, TO-SEE mode

Click + hold = On
Click1 = Full or low power first
Click2 = Mid power
Click3 = Low or full power last
Click = Repeat
Click + hold = Off (and changes the cycle to strobe mode on next power up)


Mode 2, BE-SEEN mode

Click + hold = On
Click1 = Full power strobe (more reserved for foul weather ie. heavy rain storms, thick fog, snow)
Click2 = Mid power strobe (most likely daily use mode dawn/dusk/heavy-traffic)
Click3 = Low power SOS or Strobe
Click = Repeat
Click + hold = Off (and cycles to TO-SEE mode)

The most important part where this is off is that there is NO repeat. Meaning that there is no cycle. You won't go from high to low to start over. A click will always make it brighter, and a press will always make it dimmer. This way you can adjust EITHER way from your current brightness without having to cycle through all the crap you don't want, and forget what you DID want.

When you first turn on in either mode, it will come on at the pre-chosen force mode, or at low if you don't have force set. Low by default will be the last-used level since you have to dim it all the way down to turn it off every time - built in anti-accidental off sequence.)

As I said, there will be no repeat. Click will be brighter in either mode until you hit the brightes. Press will be dimmer in either mode until you hit the dimmest. If you keep pressing at that point, you will turn it off.

I'll read this later as I'm tired and ready for sleep. How long did the last board take from suggestions to production? 6months?

You'd have to check the MTBr thread to be sure. Wasn't as long as six months though.

OK... I just checked. I began the MTBr thread on December 13, and George was shipping the new UI on Jan 14. It sure seemed like a longer process. It just depends on our time, really. We both have lives away from this stuff, and George is currently VERY busy with other work. We get to this when we can. The good news is that we DO end up with product at some point.