New Milwaukee 12A lithium ion tool batteries uses 21700 cells

Lynx_Arc

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I had thought it wouldn't happen nearly as quickly as this, power tool companies embracing larger than 18650 cells in their battery packs. I figured they would stick with 18650 cells for the size/shape/weight etc.
I saw a new 12Ah milwaukee tool battery at Home Depot last night and it looked odd.... it was larger in footprint than their normal batteries and I put one side by side and if was larger all around so I figured they were probably using 20700 or 21700 cells in it. After checking online there are sites touting 21700 cells.
This may be starting a new Ah war with the power tool manufacturers with them possibly offering 2 lines of batteries, normal to heavy output 18650 based and super output 21700 cells. I will say that 12A pack was massive and heavy I wouldn't want to have to hold it in the air all day rather have smaller batteries and swap them more often for the weight.
Will there be phone power banks using these cells soon in the stores soon? I was thinking bluetooth speakers but some of them are using non standard packs in them instead.
Makes me want to consider making sure any future chargers I buy supports longer cells as I think we will even see rechargeable flashlights in stores (built in 21700) in the future within perhaps 5 years from now.
Dewalt has a 9A battery pack out but the 12A Milwaukee IMO is going to probably push Dewalt into incorporating 21700 technology to "match" capacity without going to a 4 layer pack.
 

AVService

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I looked at those during the Holiday sales they had but though everyone likes more battery I had to decide to watch everyone else like that one!
That thing is crazy.

Now that they are selling Compressors and Table Saws and Miter Saws running on these systems though they have to keep raising the bar as much as they can.
They claim these things can run the table saw as though it was plugged into the wall.

I did however get one of these

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Produ...Batteries-and-Chargers/Heated-Gear/49-24-2371

and it seems to work great so far turning all of my batteries into power banks as needed.
It also charges at much more current than the 1/2 amp they say it does so I bet they upgraded it recently and forgot somehow to say so?
 

Lynx_Arc

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Now that they are selling Compressors and Table Saws and Miter Saws running on these systems though they have to keep raising the bar as much as they can.
They claim these things can run the table saw as though it was plugged into the wall.
Dewalt had a battery powered Table saw but it was using special 60v packs (2 of them I think). There is enough power for such things in some of these packs but the problem is runtime even with a 12Ah pack is limited vs a cord.
I did however get one of these

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Produ...Batteries-and-Chargers/Heated-Gear/49-24-2371

and it seems to work great so far turning all of my batteries into power banks as needed.
It also charges at much more current than the 1/2 amp they say it does so I bet they upgraded it recently and forgot somehow to say so?
I have cheap Black & Decker and Porter Cable 20v tools and stumbled across the Porter Cable USB adapter which is very rare now costing about $50 online or more if you can even find one. I bought it to tear down and put in a QC3.0 USB fast charging circuit board I bought for $3 on Ebay. I did pick up a 12/24v QC3.0 car fast charger USB plug in that I wired to one of my 20v batteries and it worked charging my phone rather quickly. I don't think $35+ for a wimpy 500ma to 1A USB port adapter for power tools is a good thing more like a ripoff when you can cobble something together for $10 that has 2A output and QC3 fast charging for smart phones.
 

Lynx_Arc

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AVService

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You probably shouldn't buy one then,meanwhile I will be using mine.
I sure didn't pay $35 for mine and why would I build one when they sell them ready to go.
Also it charges at 2.4amps.

Dewalt had a battery powered Table saw but it was using special 60v packs (2 of them I think). There is enough power for such things in some of these packs but the problem is runtime even with a 12Ah pack is limited vs a cord.

I have cheap Black & Decker and Porter Cable 20v tools and stumbled across the Porter Cable USB adapter which is very rare now costing about $50 online or more if you can even find one. I bought it to tear down and put in a QC3.0 USB fast charging circuit board I bought for $3 on Ebay. I did pick up a 12/24v QC3.0 car fast charger USB plug in that I wired to one of my 20v batteries and it worked charging my phone rather quickly. I don't think $35+ for a wimpy 500ma to 1A USB port adapter for power tools is a good thing more like a ripoff when you can cobble something together for $10 that has 2A output and QC3 fast charging for smart phones.
 

JimIslander

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My guess is that in about one year all new battery powered tools will use 21700. Modern competition requires using the best tool for the job, or at least the best perceived. Tesla and other companies are pounding out millions of 21700s, making them relatively cheap and plentiful and only getting moreso. And perceived (and real) benefits to power tools are great. Companies that don't offer 21700s won't sell product. Older models with 18650s will be left on the shelf and sold off at huge discounts.

Just my guess. Absolutely no consequences to being wrong. But next year I'll brag it up big if my guess is right. :twothumbs
 

Lynx_Arc

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My guess is that in about one year all new battery powered tools will use 21700. Modern competition requires using the best tool for the job, or at least the best perceived. Tesla and other companies are pounding out millions of 21700s, making them relatively cheap and plentiful and only getting moreso. And perceived (and real) benefits to power tools are great. Companies that don't offer 21700s won't sell product. Older models with 18650s will be left on the shelf and sold off at huge discounts.

Just my guess. Absolutely no consequences to being wrong. But next year I'll brag it up big if my guess is right. :twothumbs
Actually they don't necessarily make models that only take 21700 batteries the connector between the battery pack and drill are the same in both cases (18650 & 21700) so essentially the only thing that will be changed is the battery packs themselves from smaller 18650 packs to larger 21700 packs. It may be double layer 18650 are replaced by single layer 21700s to entice people with a little better capacity for a cheaper price than double layer 18650s.
 

idleprocess

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I'm fairly certain that Ryobi uses 20/21700 cells in their new-ish 3/6/9Ah +HP batteries; the 4Ah +HP is almost certainly 18650. The 9Ah is an impressive - yet chunky - thing.
 

idleprocess

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I believe Ryobi is still using 18650 cells in their 6Ah and 9Ah batteries, based on what I have read here:

https://toolcraze.net/ryobi-6-0-ah-battery-is-larger-than-4-0/

https://toolcraze.net/usa-ryobi-9-0-ah-lithium-hp-battery-p194-is-finally-here/

Interesting. All the 3Ah 18650s I've researched just can't deliver the current that lesser-capacity cells can, suggesting that either they've sourced some that I've not been able to research or the current demands of their tools is less than ≤2Ah high-rate cells can deliver.

The added girth on the 3/6/9 Ah packs must be for other reasons.
 

Lynx_Arc

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Interesting. All the 3Ah 18650s I've researched just can't deliver the current that lesser-capacity cells can, suggesting that either they've sourced some that I've not been able to research or the current demands of their tools is less than ≤2Ah high-rate cells can deliver.

The added girth on the 3/6/9 Ah packs must be for other reasons.
Parallel cell layers spread out the current demands making both easier to deliver high power plus under higher drains increasing runtimes more much more than double and triple of single layer packs.
 

idleprocess

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Parallel cell layers spread out the current demands making both easier to deliver high power plus under higher drains increasing runtimes more much more than double and triple of single layer packs.

I'm well aware. I do wonder if the new +HP 3Ah pack will suffer like the 1.2 / 1.5Ah packs do with the more power-hungry tools.
 

Lynx_Arc

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I'm well aware. I do wonder if the new +HP 3Ah pack will suffer like the 1.2 / 1.5Ah packs do with the more power-hungry tools.

If it has single layer 18650 may suffer more as typically the lower Ah packs have higher current output capacity. I've used the Dewalt XR and 5Ah packs (dual layer) and they work pretty well compared to single layer 1.3A to 2A packs of other companies
 

SubLGT

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Over at a tool forum, one guy posted this (Nov 2018):

http://forum.toolsinaction.com/topic/14357-new-9ah-batteries/

DeWalt switched from 20700 battery cells to 21700 battery cells now that they are more readily available.

The 9.0ah now uses the latest battery cells, just like the 12.0ah. This is a good thing. It is a rolling change that began happening in quarter 2 of this year.

A google search did not turn up a confirmation of the above statement.
 

NoNotAgain

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Now that they are selling Compressors and Table Saws and Miter Saws running on these systems though they have to keep raising the bar as much as they can.
They claim these things can run the table saw as though it was plugged into the wall.

I did however get one of these

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Produ...Batteries-and-Chargers/Heated-Gear/49-24-2371
Milwaukee has had the USB adapter for the M18 lithium batteries for atleast 5 years as I’ve got 2 of them I use for cold weather with my heated gear.

Word of warning though, make sure to turn it off when not in use. It will drain the battery if left on.

Royobi, Rigid and Milwaukee are all owned by the same parent company so it’s not surprising that the tech is being shared.

Of the big box home improvement stores, only Home Depot is allowed to sell Rigid electric power tools. Some of the mid west sellers like Minards sells Milwaukee. You won’t find Milwaukee at Lowe’s.

Milwaukee released the 9 amp hour battery about a year ago and the 12 amp hour version hitting the shelves in August or September.

Black&Decker/DeWalt likes to use charged voltage verses nominal voltage for their advertising so it makes their tools more powerful. The Flex-Volt batteries 20/60 volt have an internal circuit that switches from series to parallel giving them either 20 or 60 volts with the loss of capacity. Tools using the Flex-Volt use smaller gauge wiring since they don’t have to carry the higher current of the 18-20 volt offerings of other companies.
 

AVService

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Rigid is not owned by the same company.
Emerson Electric here in Fergustan owns the Rigid brand.

Milwaukee and Ryobi are owned by the same Mother company.

I have never seen Milwaukee sold at Menards.

And yes the USB adapter have been around a while but they seem to have been revised and now output a lot more current than the 1/2 amp they did at first,which is what I already said here.
I always take mine off of the battery when not is use so I am good with that.
 
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iamlucky13

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From looking at the size of the Milwaukee 12 Ah packs, I don't think 18650's are going anywhere. 21700 will likely be an increasingly common option for more power and capacity, but I'm expecting 18650's to continue to be common.

Interesting. All the 3Ah 18650s I've researched just can't deliver the current that lesser-capacity cells can, suggesting that either they've sourced some that I've not been able to research or the current demands of their tools is less than ≤2Ah high-rate cells can deliver.

The added girth on the 3/6/9 Ah packs must be for other reasons.

I don't recall seeing a 3Ah pack that wasn't a two-layer design (5s2p). The 6Ah pack presumably has 15A rated batteries in parallel, so it should behave similar to the 1.5Ah packs with 25-30A rated batteries. I don't think Ryobi is seeking the ultimate performance, especially as the entry level brand in the family.

Rigid is not owned by the same company.
Emerson Electric here in Fergustan owns the Rigid brand.

Milwaukee and Ryobi are owned by the same Mother company.

It's true that TTi does not own Ridgid, but my understanding is that Emerson licenses the Ridgid name to TTi (parent of Milwaukee and Ryobi) specifically for power tools for sale primarily at the orange box store. I recently dug up an old press release discussing the partnership in general terms, although I can't find it again now.
 

AVService

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It looks like TTI may make them but they are owned by Emerson.

I have also bought 2 different Rigid drills just because of the battery warranty and in both cases when I went online to register them the Site told me these were not from Home Depot and they would not register them at all.
I of course had just bought them at Home Depot?

From looking at the size of the Milwaukee 12 Ah packs, I don't think 18650's are going anywhere. 21700 will likely be an increasingly common option for more power and capacity, but I'm expecting 18650's to continue to be common.



I don't recall seeing a 3Ah pack that wasn't a two-layer design (5s2p). The 6Ah pack presumably has 15A rated batteries in parallel, so it should behave similar to the 1.5Ah packs with 25-30A rated batteries. I don't think Ryobi is seeking the ultimate performance, especially as the entry level brand in the family.



It's true that TTi does not own Ridgid, but my understanding is that Emerson licenses the Ridgid name to TTi (parent of Milwaukee and Ryobi) specifically for power tools for sale primarily at the orange box store. I recently dug up an old press release discussing the partnership in general terms, although I can't find it again now.
 

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