Newt Surveying Torch

[Daz108]

Dear all,

I am new to this forum, I am an ecologist working in countryside around Southeast England and every year have to survey for great crested newts. This involves looking at ponds with high power torches at night to look for newts. The guidelines we should follow state that 1 or 2 million candle power torches are used. I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for torches that might be best for this?

Currently I have been using standard 1 or 2 million CP rechargeable torches from DIY stores which are cheap but bulky and run out after less than an hour sometimes. We have also been using Minewt bike torches which are quite good and run out only after 6 hours or so, but are quite expensive (about £100 each).

The main points that would be useful are:

1) Fairly light and small as have to carry around all night
2) Last a long time (we usually have to torch for total of around 4-8 hours per night)
3) Rechargeable
4) Less than £100 each
5) At least 1 million CP or equivalent, preferably 2 million. I appreciate that CP depends on beam angle and other factors and lumens are often used instead. I also understand that lumens and CP cannot be converted into each other.

If anyone has any ideas would be grateful,

Cheers,

Dan

 

[gravelmonkey]

Hi Dan, :welcome:

Personally, I prefer a high CRI and/or 'warm/neutral tint' LED light when working outdoors; I'm not sure what tint the MiNewt you're using is but it looks to have reasonably cool tint here- if you're happy with that then disregard the high CRI criteria.

Are you looking for a 'plug in' type rechargeable light or something that takes re-chargeable batteries? Would you be happy with Li-ion cells?

Do you want a flood light or more of a spotlight type light?

 

[yellow]

Hi Dan,
I am not totally sure if I understand the distance You are "searching", as I only know the "1 Million Candlepower" as crap lights like these models: big yellow or black plastic housing with big reflector and 50 W automotive bulb + lead battery.
Big, heavy, 10-30 mins of runtime (at best) and built for loooooooong distance illumination.
I could not imagine using such parts for short distance searching
:thinking:
Also the nightrider lights You mention do not give much help, as there are some of them, coudl You please be a bit more specific?

For Your long runtime needs possibly the "best" were some kind of bike light with external battery pack, where You put the light on the head + the pack somewhere at the body?
That way You could use higher power led (= Cree XM-L) at higher power level ...



Or, if You might try "smaller" and much lighter, following advise:

a headlamp, where the "best" at the moment is the zebralight H600, and/or
a handheld light in the 1*18650 class and a "lower power" led insert running with a Cree XP-G2 led.

As its not allowed to insert links in here, some explaining "links"...
* go to sub-forum "CPF custom & modified flashlights - buy/sell/trade", where You open member "nailbender"`s thread "XP-G2 / P60 STYLE MODULES / COOLWHITES & NEUTRALS".
There You "order" an insert like: Cree XP-G, R5 flux, 3D tint, 5000 K, 2.8-6 volt, three level l-m-h, potted, op reflector.
(gives about 2 hours runtime at full power and offers three levels for added versatility. You might ask for less current at full power (f.e. 1.000 mA instead of 1.400)
* go to some shop, like f.e. lighthound and get a "solarforce" flashlight host for 18650 battery, 2 pieces at least of "AW 18650 protected Li-Ion battery" (2.900 mAh or 3.100 mAh) and an Xtar charger (WP2 or Intellicharge2 model).

That way You have what is best in that size class. Put thogether the parts make up for a light thats hard to beat.
The headlamp is more for floody area illumination, the handheld for a more direct search and giving a good illumination range for its size.


or give more info on the specific use (and maybe other lights used) for all the advise-givers to post their best ideas.

 

[mcnair55]

Dear all,

I am new to this forum, I am an ecologist working in countryside around Southeast England and every year have to survey for great crested newts. This involves looking at ponds with high power torches at night to look for newts. The guidelines we should follow state that 1 or 2 million candle power torches are used. I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for torches that might be best for this?

Currently I have been using standard 1 or 2 million CP rechargeable torches from DIY stores which are cheap but bulky and run out after less than an hour sometimes. We have also been using Minewt bike torches which are quite good and run out only after 6 hours or so, but are quite expensive (about £100 each).

The main points that would be useful are:

1) Fairly light and small as have to carry around all night
2) Last a long time (we usually have to torch for total of around 4-8 hours per night)
3) Rechargeable
4) Less than £100 each
5) At least 1 million CP or equivalent, preferably 2 million. I appreciate that CP depends on beam angle and other factors and lumens are often used instead. I also understand that lumens and CP cannot be converted into each other.

If anyone has any ideas would be grateful,

Cheers,

Dan

It would be nice if a UK guy living close could hook up with you and try out some different lights.

 

[yellow]

I hope You did not fall into one of the ponds ...

 

[lightdelight]

Ditch the million cp light. If you really are trying to see in the water, tie the light to a stick (securely). If you are using the lights a lot, standardize on 1 type of battery. Your batteries and charger are just as important as your light. Grab an extra to carry with you in case you are far out and left in the dark.

You should look for a floody headlamp and a throwy torch. I stand behind yellow's recommendation, but maybe it would be easier to purchase a commercial torch to save a lot of reading.

 

[Daz108]

Hi Dan, :welcome:

Personally, I prefer a high CRI and/or 'warm/neutral tint' LED light when working outdoors; I'm not sure what tint the MiNewt you're using is but it looks to have reasonably cool tint here- if you're happy with that then disregard the high CRI criteria.

Are you looking for a 'plug in' type rechargeable light or something that takes re-chargeable batteries? Would you be happy with Li-ion cells?

Do you want a flood light or more of a spotlight type light?

Hello Gravelmonkey,

Thanks for taking time to reply and apologies for my slow response, the minewt I was using was I believe a Minewt niterider 600 cordless. Preferably the tint should be good enough to be able to get some idea of the colours of things. The newts we are looking for are black, under the torches they look brownish but its not a major problem.

Regarding torches, plug-in, re-chargeable batteries are both ok, anything that is simple and easy to recharge will do, Li-ion cells I do not know much about but if easy to recharge then would be fine.

The way we survey somewhere in between a spotlight and floodlight is best, if the beam is too narrow then it would take a long time to survey the ponds, if it is too wide then presumably the light would pentrate less or would run out quicker if very bright. A beam illuminating 1 or 2 m diameter circle of the water when standing at the pond edge would probably be sufficeint.

Dan

 

[Daz108]

Hi Dan,
I am not totally sure if I understand the distance You are "searching", as I only know the "1 Million Candlepower" as crap lights like these models: big yellow or black plastic housing with big reflector and 50 W automotive bulb + lead battery.
Big, heavy, 10-30 mins of runtime (at best) and built for loooooooong distance illumination.
I could not imagine using such parts for short distance searching - These are the tye we have used and a lot of people still do, the ditance we are searching is from standing to ground level at the edge of a pond and then as far out into the middle as the torch will let you see. They work quite well for illuminating into the pond surface and you can see to the bottom quite well in clearer ponds but once they start to run out they go very quickly.... We normally turn them off every now and then and in between ponds to save juice..
:thinking:
Also the nightrider lights You mention do not give much help, as there are some of them, coudl You please be a bit more specific? - I believe they were Niterider Minext 600 Cordless...

For Your long runtime needs possibly the "best" were some kind of bike light with external battery pack, where You put the light on the head + the pack somewhere at the body?
That way You could use higher power led (= Cree XM-L) at higher power level ... - Ok thanks will look into that...

Or, if You might try "smaller" and much lighter, following advise:

a headlamp, where the "best" at the moment is the zebralight H600, and/or
a handheld light in the 1*18650 class and a "lower power" led insert running with a Cree XP-G2 led.

As its not allowed to insert links in here, some explaining "links"...
* go to sub-forum "CPF custom & modified flashlights - buy/sell/trade", where You open member "nailbender"`s thread "XP-G2 / P60 STYLE MODULES / COOLWHITES & NEUTRALS".
There You "order" an insert like: Cree XP-G, R5 flux, 3D tint, 5000 K, 2.8-6 volt, three level l-m-h, potted, op reflector.
(gives about 2 hours runtime at full power and offers three levels for added versatility. You might ask for less current at full power (f.e. 1.000 mA instead of 1.400)
* go to some shop, like f.e. lighthound and get a "solarforce" flashlight host for 18650 battery, 2 pieces at least of "AW 18650 protected Li-Ion battery" (2.900 mAh or 3.100 mAh) and an Xtar charger (WP2 or Intellicharge2 model).

That way You have what is best in that size class. Put thogether the parts make up for a light thats hard to beat.
The headlamp is more for floody area illumination, the handheld for a more direct search and giving a good illumination range for its size. - OK thanks will check that out..


or give more info on the specific use (and maybe other lights used) for all the advise-givers to post their best ideas.

Hi, thanks for the reply I have added my responses above,

Dan

 

[Daz108]

I hope You did not fall into one of the ponds ...

Just managed to crawl out...

 

[yellow]

Hi Dan.
Thanks for naming Niterider light model. Good to know, because now everyone here has something to start with.
Just my shortest thinking to these: I really wonder why "everyone" seems to "have to" use something like this, as they (all these "real bike lights") can do nothing better than a typical led-flashlight but are much more expensive ... In fact they can not do anything near to what a typical led-handheld can do.
BUT I am totally aware, that not everyone and especially not the majority of bike riders, have the idea of using the handheld + a bar holder ... even when I consider this as the 1st thing that shuld come to mind ...


So ... that niterider is nothing different to any 1*18650 led-flashlight running a cree XM-L led .. If that fits Your needs, You will be fine off getting a typical 18650 one.
As a plus, with the flashlight, You and Your collegues can get spare rechargeable cells and change them when needed.
A XM-L on full power will give ~1 hour of light. In a power level like the niterider about 1.5-2 hours.
The chargers for the 18650 cells are available in builds that can be powered from You wall plug, as well as car power - if needed.

lightdelight is completely right with the ready made product for starting; try this - the light should be comparable to the niterider:
... direct links not allowed, so please go to
www.lighthound.com as store and type in the search:
"Lighthound CR-2 Cree XM-L LED Flashlight" for the light
"AW 18650 Protected 2900 mAh Rechargeable Lithium Battery" for battery (protected = with safety cricuit included, never go without!)
"XTAR WXTAR WP2II Charger" for the wall plug and car charger
... and You might need some adapter for Your wall plugs


that is entry level light, but if the idea works but You are not fully satisfied, then the thing with the special built led inserts in some light "host" -like I typed earlier - might come into play.

I would really like to read Your comaprison of the million candlepower light to the niterider, as I think in direct comparison - and the far reach You seem to do - the bike light model is much less powerful ...
:thinking:

 

[bluebouy]

Are you searching for newts on the surface of a pond from a distance (10.20.30mtrs)?? Or are you standing on the side of shallower ponds and pointing the light into the pond to see light up the bottom and illuminate the water?

From looking at the specs and a short video of the niterider light, I think that a Nitecore EA4W with just some simple enloop rechargeables may well fit the bill for you, Here for a few reasons....

Off the shelf with a decent tint and not bad colour rendition with a good enough hotspot to pentrate the water and light it up, Plus uses AA batteries which... leads to the enloops - safe chemistry high performance rechargeables that will give you 3+hrs with a similar output as the niterider in a similar overall pocketable size.


Sure there are lots and lots of different possible options to explore and you may well turn into a full blown light addict, but if you want a simple reliable package that will do the job without over complicating things It may well be worth looking at.

simples

 

[Dubois]

It would be nice if a UK guy living close could hook up with you and try out some different lights.

Sounds like a perfect suggestion - if you connect with someone who can show you a bag full of lights, you will get a much better idea of what is available, and useful. I'm in east London if that helps.

 

[TEEJ]

I have done analogous searches in the US, but we have different newts here.

I'm guess that you go out to ponds at night, and shine the light at the shore areas and try to either see them in the water or up on something....maybe as afar away as 20' max or so? (A small, low contrast target, so your eyesight is a limiting factor?)

That means that you will need to put ~ 100 - 1,000 lux on your targets at a range of perhaps 20' or less. If you could see one more than 20' (~ 6 meters?) away, let me know, I'm guessing.

That would mean you'd want a torch with a cd rating of ~ 5,000 cd - 40,000 cd

If you want a beam size of ~ 1- 2 meters at that ~ 6 meter range...you want a beam of angle of ~ 26º - 53º


The light you mentioned (cordless bike light) puts out 600 lumens in its specs, but that might be emitter (CREE) lumens, not ANSI or OTF (Out the Front) lumens.


As a few guesstimates are used, for example, the range that you might actually be able to SEE a newt at...I can revise the above.

Off hand, it looks like the beam angle might be tough to cover that much at a time, UNLESS, the additional spill from the light is adequate to notice the 'lil buggers.


I just found this: (Video Example of a nocturnal torch survey for these newts...)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Great_Crested_Newt#p00tlfxs



It LOOKS like they use less beam angle, and fairly dim incandescent lights, so with a decent LED rechargeable torch, you'd be a super hero compared to these guys at least.

 

[TEEJ]

Sounds like a perfect suggestion - if you connect with someone who can show you a bag full of lights, you will get a much better idea of what is available, and useful. I'm in east London if that helps.

AceDan is somewhere near you too IIRC?

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/member.php?187533-AceDan


He went to the PF out your way at least just recently.

 

[gravelmonkey]

Hello Gravelmonkey,

Thanks for taking time to reply and apologies for my slow response, the minewt I was using was I believe a Minewt niterider 600 cordless. Preferably the tint should be good enough to be able to get some idea of the colours of things. The newts we are looking for are black, under the torches they look brownish but its not a major problem.

Regarding torches, plug-in, re-chargeable batteries are both ok, anything that is simple and easy to recharge will do, Li-ion cells I do not know much about but if easy to recharge then would be fine.

The way we survey somewhere in between a spotlight and floodlight is best, if the beam is too narrow then it would take a long time to survey the ponds, if it is too wide then presumably the light would pentrate less or would run out quicker if very bright. A beam illuminating 1 or 2 m diameter circle of the water when standing at the pond edge would probably be sufficeint.

Dan

'Cool white' LED's such as that used with the Minewt 600 always seem to 'wash out' colours such as brown, dark greys and greens; a 'warm tint' LED with a high Colour Rendering Index (CRI) will look more like the 1million CP spotlight, colour-wise.

I wouldn't describe Li-ion cells as 'difficult' but they do require a bit of care and respect- with a bit of reading up on li-ion safety, buying decent quality cells, a decent charger and a digital multimeter to measure voltage you should be ok.

If you're happy to follow the Li-ion 'rules' I would recommend EITHER:

1) A Solarforce 'host' and a 'P60 drop-in' from one of the builders on CPF-eg Nailbender. As yellow said, you'll have a fantastic light that's hard to beat. With regards to the LED choices, its tough to recommend without having done newt survaying myself!
For a 'floody' type beam, go with a ~4000K (colour temperature) XML, for more of a 'spotlight/throwy' beam, go with a ~4000K XP-G2. The Nichia 219 LED is very popular at the moment as its ~4500K and has a high Colour Rendering Index (though, at a loss of overall output).

2) A Zebralight SC600w- 'Floody' style of beam (£64 from the Zebralight website)

3) Just spotted a Xeno F42 on sale with a Warm Tint- 'Spotlight/throw' style of beam (~£37 I'll PM you a link to where its on sale).

Edit, can't PM you, its on
Link removed as per the banner at the top of the page - Norm
they have Cool, neutral and warm tint LED to choose from.

 

[TEEJ]

A clarification to avoid confusion of the many terms bandied about:

Warm does NOT equal high CRI, and yellowish ("Warmer") light also washes out/changes some colors.


His targets are for the most part black or very dark brown....and a white light doesn't wash out colors, it tends to change them LESS. The SUN uses white light for example, and is considered the gold standard for color rendition/CRI, etc.

The LED color temperature you mention is not relevant for a warm light, as color temperature does not = tint. Color temperature (In º Kelvin) only (ONLY) is used properly for WHITE LIGHT (Such as the Sun, etc...)


With a black/dark brown target, in potentially silty/muddy water or water thick with flora, etc, the contrast will typically be best achieved with enough lux to make the background bright enough to initially silhouette darker targets and to allow resolution of target detail once spotted.

The depth of the water will also attenuate some colors, etc, but its more probable that the spotting will be limited to a maximum depth of 2'-3' due to typical line of sight/turbidity conditions.

As the flora and shore configuration are going to be rolling variables, it is likely that more than one beam pattern and characteristic will be ideal.

The Zebralight SC600W mentioned is a good light, but I would get the SC600 version myself for this project (I HAVE the SC600W and the SC600)....if I had to choose just one of the two.

The SC600's cd is not that high, albeit might reach the lower end of the recommended scale. Its beam is very floody, a plus for wide searches. The new Mark II version of the SC600 is putting out ~ 900 lumens, with the SC600W, if you could find one, at a lower lumen output....and a correspondingly lower cd.


I'd like more feed back before recommending a SPECIFIC light though.

 

[gravelmonkey]

Warm does NOT equal high CRI, and yellowish ("Warmer") light also washes out/changes some colors.

Yeh, forgot to mention that in my initial reply, apologies.

His targets are for the most part black or very dark brown....and a white light doesn't wash out colors, it tends to change them LESS. The SUN uses white light for example, and is considered the gold standard for color rendition/CRI, etc.

Wheh? What kind of white light? I found my "white light" (eg. Fenix LD20 with XPG-R5 ?1C tint) made browns, yellows and reds look 'washed out' (jungle environment, doing geology). I'm not sure what the TK20 has in it, but to my eye, browns and reds look more natural than my ZL H51c. Not being argumentative, just interested what you mean :thinking:.

How about something like the Nitecore EA4?

 

[yellow]

... thats the actual, exaggerated hype here for high CRI and does not help Daz108 too much, if we do discuss it in detail.
There now have been the usual pro - comments ...
... so get one of the few no ones:
The warm XM-L is said to be 92-94 CRI, so it can be considered as high CRI also ... and I regret getting that insert, as it does not give me anything more than the neutral tint but is visibly less powerful.
I even have the impression, that the "normal" neutral white light helps me distinguish colors better
(but I also dont search for dark worms on muddy ground, so ...)

 

[cerbie]

Wheh? What kind of white light? I found my "white light" (eg. Fenix LD20 with XPG-R5 ?1C tint) made browns, yellows and reds look 'washed out' (jungle environment, doing geology). I'm not sure what the TK20 has in it, but to my eye, browns and reds look more natural than my ZL H51c. Not being argumentative, just interested what you mean :thinking:.

The TK20 used a Cree XR-E neutral. The H51c used a Rebel neutral ("high-CRI" by a nose, not like the Nichia or Cree high-CRI emitters). Which would be better should be more a matter of the good old tint lottery than anything else.

In the case of both Cree and Lumileds, their neutrals have higher CRI, so you are getting more than just a change in average tint, and at a very low cost to output (basically indistinguishable from the cool white). IMO, going with a neutral emitter, if possible, is a no-brainer. I love high-CRI, but depending on comparison point, you do have to give up 30-50% output for it, which can be significant.

Do note that Cree offers Warm white LEDs with no higher CRI specs than their neutrals. Their high-CRI are all warm, but not all their warm whites are high-CRI.

I've been following this thread with interest, but I must say I'm at quite a loss as to what the OP might find most useful.

 

[TEEJ]

LOL

The OP needs to see, most likely, black or dark brown on green/amber/light brown backgrounds...the ground/shoreline/vegetation...etc. In the video at least, the lights were washing out a lot of color because yellowish light washes out the colors that are around a pond/in the water....but, it didn't matter much, because the NEWTS were not that colorful (The bottoms could be) ...they were darker than the environment. The searchers were looking for morphological clues, the silhouette or other characteristics of the newt's shape and expected position (they would not be expected to be swimming upside down, if they are on submerged vegetation, they will not be laying on their backs on it, they might be more likely to be facing the current if applicable, etc...).

Generally, once your eyes become trained for spotting characteristics of a shape, you get very good at being able to isolate a small part and see it as a part of the thing you're looking for. This would be analogous to a friend of yours getting a new car, and all of a sudden you start to notice them all over the place...your brain had created a cubby hole for those visual cues.