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Nexgen 500 / Pila 168s?

Beamhead

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The FAQ section states "Some typical configurations:
NG400-500 / LuxIII on 1x123 or Li-Ion --> most reasonable choice !" Does the Li-on also pertain to a Pila 168s? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/duh2.gif
 
If you can get Wayne or Don to disagree with me on this, that's a good thing, but...

I wouldn't run a NG400 or 500 that has a Lux III with a Vf of less than K on a li-ion. I know that some guys have been doing it successfully, but the math says that it might blow the converter. If you have a J Vf luxeon that happens to fall in the lower range of the J Vf, you could wind up with a situation where there is more than .7v overhead and this could be dangerous for your converter.

If you have a Luxeon with a K Vf or greater, then go ahead and do it.
 
Thanks Chop,
I am running a TWOJ, so maybe I will steer clear of the Pila 168s for now.
What LI-on does the FAQ pertain to? R123's they can run at 4.2v and the Pila is 3.7v. Is it the current/capacity that makes a difference?
 
AFAIK all Li-Ions should be the same and can be 4.2V fresh from the charger but won't hold that for long, but I can be very wrong here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
So far I didn't hear from a dead soldier due to a Li-Ion with a NG and J-bin, but Murphy might make you the first victim ... as Tony said, the math isn't on our side here.
bernhard
 
The protected and unprotected Litium Ion cells can come off of the charger at 4.2 but they drop to 3.6-3.7 quickly and hold that for sometime. The exception is the reduced power Lithium Ion batteries.
 
Chop

I think at some point I read a post where you, or Darrell, or perhaps both of you, felt that a NG at 700-750 or higher mated to a "J" Vf bin would be OK with a Li-ion battery. If I recall that correctly, where do you feel is the break point where one could safely drop down from a "K" to a "J"? Is it at 700? Or am I hallucinating and misquoting you?
 
No, you are right. 700mA should be a safe point with a J Vf luxeon. For safety's sake, go with a NexGen750 and be comfortable.

Look, to be honest, I've run lots of converters biased for 500mA with a li-ion cell. Of course, if I fry one, I just reach into my stock and throw another one in. For you, it's likely a bit different. I haven't lost one yet, but as bernie said, the math isn't on our side. I have noticed that a converter biased for less than 700mA will run in sort of a direct drive with a li-ion getting more current to the LED than the converter is biased for. This should tell us something.
 
Ah yes ... that's what I forgot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
My NG400 and 500 are much brighter on a Li-Ion than on a CR123 ... meaning Chop is right and the risk on me ...
bernie
 
Thanks Gents,
Warning dumb inquiry about to comence!
The "math" that is not on our side,....could I get an example of the"math"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/duh2.gif..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif
 
I think the only harm of using a NG300 or NG400 on a Li-Ion is the fact that you will be in a case of higher current to the LED than speced with resulting higher output and reduced runtimes. In most cases, there is enough of a voltage drop across the converter itself to keep the LED below drive levels of true DD. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif It doesn't make sense (to me) to plan on using a combination of components that will not behave in the designed fashion. On the other hand, using the Li-Ion on ocassion should not present any problems.
 
[ QUOTE ]
McGizmo said:
It doesn't make sense (to me) to plan on using a combination of components that will not behave in the designed fashion. On the other hand, using the Li-Ion on ocassion should not present any problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I read this correctly driving a Nexgen 500 with a pila 168s would not be using the combination of designed components properly.

If this is true then maybe this part of the FAQ needs further clarification?

**Some typical configurations:
NG400-500 / LuxIII on 1x123 or Li-Ion --> most reasonable choice !
NG750 / LuxIII on 1x123 or up to NG1000 on 1xLi-Ion
MM / LuxIII on 1x123
BB750 / LuxV on 2x123
BB500 / LuxV on 1x123 or 2x123
DB917 / LuxIII on 2x123 or 3x123
Wiz2 520 / LuxIII on 1x123 or 2x123 or 1xLi-Ion **



Just trying to help, if I am wrong then/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif me.


BTW: I purchased the Nexgen 500 to use exclusivley with a single cr123, then I saw the above mentioned part of the FAQ, and well here we are. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
What Don is saying is that it doesn't make sense to have a 500mA light built to run it on a li-ion that will cause the light to run at a current level in excess of 700mA. If you intended to run at 700mA with the li-ion, you may as well have built the light with a bias of 700mA, or more.

The "math" that I'm referring to is this, and it all assumes a worse case scenario. For arguments sake, let's say that you have a J Vf luxeon that falls at the bottom of the Vf range and its actual Vf is 3.27v. The NexGen will tolerate an over head of .7v. A battery will experience a voltage drop of about .5v per amp of draw. Let's also assume that a fresh li-ion has a voltage of 4.2. As I said, we're assuming the worst.

With a NexGen400, the converter will draw about 600mA from the battery, so assume a voltage drop of about .3v. Of course it will draw more than that from a li-ion cell. That puts us at 3.9v. Then consider the Vf of the luxeon as being 3.27. So, 3.27 + .7 is 3.97 which makes the overhead within tolerable limits, but it begins to get a bit muddied here.

This is because we are within safe tolerable limits as defined by Wayne, by .07v, which isn't much. The danger comes with the fact that li-ion cells do not drop voltage under a load like primary cells do.

OK, so I have to admit (and have always done so) that I am not a math nor electronics wiz. If fact I'm an electronics idiot.

As I said in my previous post, as a practical matter, I've never fried a NexGen by running one on a li-ion cell, although using a li-ion does get more current to the LED than intended by the bias of the converter.

With out making any warranties or claims, I'll say this. Running a boost converter with a li-ion cell is nothing new. I (and I'm sure that many other have also) began running boost converters on li-ion cells almost two years ago. The way that I stumbled on it was when I found that a DownBoy (buck converter) would not run in regulation (in most cases) on a li-ion cell. I just figured that if it wouldn't run in regulation on a downboy, a badboy must be in order. The BadBoy NexGen is exactly that. The next generation of badboy converters, so I've continued to run the new converters on li-ion cells.

I'm just not willing to warrant that it will work.

As Don said, it just doesn't make sense to build a light to run at 500mA and then force it to run at a higher bias by using a li-ion cell. If you want it to be brighter, then bias it that way. Then you'll get a predetermined output no matter what you run it with.

If you want to take full advantage of a li-ion cell and want to run a light at a more conservative current level, then go for a Wiz2 board.

As for the NG500 being run on a li-ion, I've also had several reports from others that it's working out for them. I've even had one person tell me that they've (definitely not recommended) been running their NexGen LE on 2X123. The NexGen may be a tougher board than it's gotten credit for. I know that DDing a lux III on 2X123 kills it pretty quick, so I don't know what's going on there, but the point is that the board didn't fry.

The bottom line is, "so what do I know?" We all live and learn through trial and error and experience.
 
Thanks Tony:
I see the picture now. I think..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
Running a Li-Ion with a Nexgen biased lower than 700 is an "At your own risk/YMMV situation".

Here's what I have:
Nexgen 500 TWOJ running only 123 single cell
Nexgen 750 TWOJ running primarily pila 168s or 1-123 cell
Nexgen 917 TWOJ running primarily pila 168s or 1-123 cell
These configs above should be O.K./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/aaa.gif

I still wonder about this line's absolute validity in Bernhard's amazingly awesome Aleph FAQ
NG400-500 / LuxIII on 1x123 or <font color="red"> Li-Ion </font> --> most reasonable choice !
No offense Bernhard just trying to prevent any confusion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

BTW Tony, I would not say you are an electronics idiot! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In all the fields and supposed knowledge I attempt to aquire there always seems to be someone who makes me feel like a mental midget. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif
 
beamhead ... maybe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
I do not know if it merits a change /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif ... Point is the versatility in 1x123 or Li-Ion, and it does work, there isn't any other evidence. The "most reasonable choice" is meant for drive current, not the Li-Ion.
We're still on a learning curve for the newer drivers, and I'd like to wait a little before adding more to the confusion ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Will post a little note though ...

No offense taken, of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif , this is not about personal pride or who is right but about the truth and best possible knowledge, so please continue to question everything you read ... so that in the end, we all get better.

bernhard
 
Bernhard,
Thank you for your masterful effort in creating and maintaining the Aleph-FAQ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

This reminds me of when I was an RF Technician doing R+D for Engineers, that what works on paper/in theory does not always work in reality, however in this case it may be the opposite were as the limitations on paper/in theory do not apply to reality.

At any rate I will check your FAQ often to see if the learning curve on this converter (Nexgen 500 or lower) allows for reliable/worry free use with a LI-Ion. (as I am sure you will update it if/when enough data/real life use warrants it)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif
Regards,
Craig
 
I am thinking that a Wiz2 would be your best bet if any doubt. It can handle up to 6V and I think it cuts off at 2.7V to protect the Pila/Li-Ion.
I could be wrong, but I think that is correct.
Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

On the other hand I have run a NexGen/500 TYOJ on the Li-Ion 123 cells without any problems.YMMV

mut
 
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