Not the best news from Surefire...

[conan1911]

Sorry I am home today with a sick child and havent had a chance to keep up with all the posts. First off, I meant nothing against all of you when I said "real men and women". I understand who our customer base is better than most. I just meant that when our core market that got us to where we are puts their lives on the line so that the rest of us can sit here and debate it SureFire is responsible to give them(and you) product that we can all believe in. I served four years in the Marine Corps and have spent the vast majority of my life in the civilian market so I see both sides. Al may have already covered this but I will touch on it briefly. How long has the US military been using the M16?? Anyone? since the 1960's. Have better rifles come along since then? Sure. Nothing changes overnight in the US military. They love the MU Systems as a whole. The "big Army" continues to buy and love it. You and I both know the Scout is lighter, bright and more durable but the Army sticks with what it knows. Plain and simple. So to make the MU system more appealling we continue to refine it. I hope this makes sense.

 

[foxtrot29]

I don´t like to whine about delays in flashlights release dates from Surefire. I own a few of their fine lights, and I could speculate on lots of reasons for the delays. At the end of the day I realize they´re their products and WHEN they come out I´ll either buy or not. A CPF member said it well a while ago, some are just over anxious and an impatient bunch.

You hit it on the head with "anxious and impatient". Me included, but I AM their target market.

 

[foxtrot29]

Uh, was that supposed to be toughguy talk? LE walks the same streets any ordinary citizen does, they're a reactionary force by nature so unless it's a case of blind luck or a deliberately planned raid they only show up on the scene after something has happened and the majority of LE officers will never fire a shot in anger. It's not exactly like we're talking about an army of Terminators with badges roaming the streets and that's a good thing. I have read a study that suggested an officer in Portland, Oregon... a city of over half a million citizens... could expect to be on the force 193 years(if humanly possible) without getting involved in a fatal shooting. Further, police service simply is not available in all areas. For instance there is no police force where I live. I realize Australians are not allowed to own firearms for self defense but in the US ordinary citizens use firearms around 2 million times a year to either defend themselves or outright prevent a crime. I don't have any hard stats on exactly how many of those incidents occur in the dark but it is common knowledge the world over that the risk of attack goes up after the sun goes down. We all rely on our lights and other gear to save our lives when things go wrong.

So you're saying ordinary citizen relying on SF = LE relying on SF?

I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts? How often are you out between the hours of 2300-0700 doing foot patrols of dark alleys, unlit streets, and derelict buildings? How much more likely are you to be attacked in the dark than LE?

You want to say the playing field is level? Again, I DON'T THINK SO. :thumbsdow

That being said, I have full respect for the flashlight hobby users -- I'm an LEO, but I'm also a collector myself! I don't need a dozen Surefires, but I sure want a dozen!

Use or like them for whatever you want, but LE's reliance on them is not to be compared to the average citizen, and from most threads which swing this direction on CPF, I'm betting on the fact that most members here would agree.

 

[bullfrog]

Like most, I don't mind waiting for Surefire to release their new models. I know that an incredible amount of R&D go into their products and I appreciate that. This is the difference that makes a Surefire a Surefire.

My only gripe is, why have lights presented in the catalog in such a fashion that makes their release seem imminent? Why have in giant typeface in the 2008 illumination tools catalog "New for 2008" and then have the ua2, ub2 and p61L? It exudes a notion that they are pretty much ready to go.

I know it is very exciting to share the revolutionary new tech involved in these lights but, why not just advertise them as under development or in the works sans a release month or even year?

It still baffles me that it got to the point with the optimus and invictus that there was a pre-order/pay list...

With that said, I am willing to wait without a complaint and I expect to wait - the lights are worth it. I just don't get the catalog thing - its all about setting expectations.

 

[Chrontius]

I gotta agree with Bullfrog - seems most of the ill feelings are related to pre-paid pre-orders for the UA2, UB2, and T1A. Seems to me that if these had just been presented as "Prototypes", "From the Labs", "New R&D Projects" or something like that, all the benefits of the catalog would have been there, but none of the drawbacks of the down payments vanishing into the aether.

Stuart, thank you for participating here - it's really cool to see some dialogue going here. 😀

 

[Federal LG]

Not a bad thread. More balanced than most SF threads. We should appreciate Stuart's participation, and be respectful in our comments to him.

I am still thinking, as I have mentioned in the past, that the CPF community is a fairly large market for SF. I know that this notion is sometimes debated, but none the less true, I believe, even though there are is not hard data to back up this supposition. The opposition to this premise can not come up with hard data either.

Bill

I thought that too, Bill.

Maybe if we start a poll asking:

Do you have Surefire lights ?
X yes or X no

With time, we could get an idea of how many CPFers are SF owners.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

I thought that too, Bill.

Maybe if we start a poll asking:

Do you have Surefire lights ?
X yes or X no

With time, we could get an idea of how many CPFers are SF owners.

A poll can be done with 10 choices, so make last choice 10 or more. Ask in body those checking 10 or more to post how many more than 10. I think number could be in the thousands.

Bill

 

[bullfrog]

I thought that too, Bill.

Maybe if we start a poll asking:

Do you have Surefire lights ?
X yes or X no

With time, we could get an idea of how many CPFers are SF owners.

A poll can be done with 10 choices, so make last choice 10 or more. Ask in body those checking 10 or more to post how many more than 10. I think number could be in the thousands.

Bill

This would be really interesting :twothumbs

 

[GreyShark]

So you're saying ordinary citizen relying on SF = LE relying on SF?

Absolutely. Anybody who relies on a quality, durable light under bad circumstances is the same.

I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts?

Ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day.

How often are you out between the hours of 2300-0700 doing foot patrols of dark alleys, unlit streets, and derelict buildings?

I'm mostly awake at night. In fact I started a thread on this subject a while ago. It seems a disproportionate number of our membership are night people. We all walk the same streets. Actually there are many neighborhoods people have to live in that the police just don't go to. Fortunately I no longer have to live in them.

How much more likely are you to be attacked in the dark than LE?

Much more likely. LEO's are known to carry weapons, radios and have backup.

That being said, I have full respect for the flashlight hobby users -- I'm an LEO, but I'm also a collector myself! I don't need a dozen Surefires, but I sure want a dozen!

I only have 5. 🙁 But they're good models. 😀

Use or like them for whatever you want, but LE's reliance on them is not to be compared to the average citizen, and from most threads which swing this direction on CPF, I'm betting on the fact that most members here would agree.

That's utterly irrelevant to me. No matter what anybody says or thinks the bottom line for me is the safety of my family and myself. I'm not trusting that to some cheesey plastic Eveready.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

GreyShark, you had a rebuttal for mostly everything that LEO foxtrot29 said in his post, and you are allowed your right to rebut a post, just as he had his right to rebut your post. I am going to agree with him that LEO's put themselves in harms way a whole lot more than I do. Somehow I find your manner of posting inflammatory, sort of disrespectful, in a flip manner. We in the CPF community are here mostly for fun and to share our hobby with others, and yes, we get upset with this or that, and SF for not doing it the way we expect them to; we do not need to carry our upsetness too far, and end up belittling others in the process. If foxtrot29 gets carried away in his posting, I would say the same thing. :sigh:

Bill

 

[GreyShark]

I can understand that. I've been trying to mind my manners, I haven't commented on half the disturbing or illogical points of view that have been put forth because we don't come here for heated political debate. I just happen to find it inflammatory and disrespectful when somebody tries to insinuate the lives of my family or myself don't count as much as theirs because they work for the government.

I gave up on the product discussion in this thread because it's obvious it won't change anything. I'll give up on the logic debate too because it also won't change anything. Everybody is welcome to believe whatever they want to believe and I will continue to do what I feel is best for me and mine.

 

[saabgoblin]

I gotta agree with Bullfrog - seems most of the ill feelings are related to pre-paid pre-orders for the UA2, UB2, and T1A. Seems to me that if these had just been presented as "Prototypes", "From the Labs", "New R&D Projects" or something like that, all the benefits of the catalog would have been there, but none of the drawbacks of the down payments vanishing into the aether.

Stuart, thank you for participating here - it's really cool to see some dialogue going here. 😀

So are the Pre Orders initiated by Surefire or their retailers, or by both?:thinking:

 

[GreyShark]

P.S.

FoxTrot, I'm sorry I sidetracked your thread.

 

[Federal LG]

Make your bets, gentlemen...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=225690

 

[SureAddicted]

GreyShark, unless your LEO you have no idea the situations they go through on a daily basis. This isn't tough guy talk, this is reality whether you like it or not. I could of posted a full page othesis on your last response, but you seem to sidestep the main issue. Foxtrot29 is on the ball, could not agree with him more. Maybe it's a good idea to take a take a step back and hear from LEO's themselves rather than forming an opinon which is way off the mark. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that's what makes CPF a great site as a knowlegebase for all, not just members.
I think this has gone OT long enough, let's get back to what the thread is all about.

 

[Monocrom]

My experience with Surefire has gotten to the point of simply accepting certain things as they are.

Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.

The new Surefire models will be ready when they are ready. That's all there is to it. Meanwhile, I'm going to see if CSI is on tonight.

 

[foxtrot29]

Ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day.

Although I disagree with virtually every response you made, I'm just going to pick out the above, which was in response to my question

"I don't think so. As an "ordinary citizen" how many houses do you have to clear in a month which could contain b&e suspects or drug addicts?"

You kind of hit the mark with that one. Yes, ordinary citizens live next door to them every single day. But you don't have to go INSIDE them every single day to deal with them, now do you?

When your flashlight fails during your period of living beside a drug house, and mine fails when I'm inside looking for some ******* that could be armed with a knife and hiding in a closet, you're right -- your light failure was just as critical as mine. 😗

 

[foxtrot29]

My experience with Surefire has gotten to the point of simply accepting certain things as they are.

Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.

The new Surefire models will be ready when they are ready. That's all there is to it. Meanwhile, I'm going to see if CSI is on tonight.

:laughing:

It's true! We will take it and like it.

I laugh at myself for starting this thread, since I know I'm just anxious for their new products. God forbid they don't release the LX2 right now, because I don't have enough lights as it is! hahaha

 

[foxtrot29]

Oh, and I want to thank Stewart@surefire for posting in my thread -- I impatiently await the arrival of the LX2!

But I'll wait indefinitely if I have to! lol

 

[1996alnl]

Surefire is very predictable... Like a girlfriend who can never be ready to go out on time. You just accept it, sit on the couch, and try to find something good on TV while you wait.

I'm still laughing as i type this.
Me being an idiot,sit in the car and wait for my wife to get ready when were going out...everytime.
Next time i'm sitting on the couch and catching the end of the game:thumbsup:

Back on topic: I have one piece of advice for everyone who awaits the release of a new product from SF and finds themselves dissapointed.
Don't look at their catalogue.

How am i suppose to know what direction the company is taking? I check their website every now and then,and CPF ofcourse.
I've said it before,the reason this company takes their time releasing products is because they do everything in their power to f#%kup their product.
When they are 100% confident in it's reliability then it's released.
A friend of mine went on a backpacking trip last summer and decided they were going to explore some caves.
His light collection consists of about a good 40 lights or so and about 6 different manufacturers.
Guess which brand he used?
All Surefire.

Enjoy the beam
And Monocrom i'm still laughing..