OSRAM Street Legal LED Headlight Bulbs.

theory816

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Actually as far as automotive applications, halogens are not cheaper nor simpler if you consider all variables. designers have to make halogen lights assessable for bulb replacement, leds do not have to be. halogen light assembly needs to be vented, halogens make lots of heat inside the headlight, great temp difference inside/outside creates its own challenges, led can be sealed, and make almost no heat inside the assembly, heat sinks move heat away from the back of the led. I have little doubts in 10 years you probably wont find any halogen headlights worldwide, regardless of the vehicle price. today there are still plenty of factories tooled to produce bulbs and halogen lights, but they gradually getting phased out. another reason may be that there are still active contracts, and well as political reasons.
Making it accessible is just a matter of geometry and the extra plastic material for the larger surface area is negligent in cost. LED chips are more expensive, requiring more electronics and more expensive heat seats, instead of relying on a simple vent hole. And also not to mention that the engineering files for halogen and reflectors have been refined over decades while LEDs is still an ongoing process of refinement, making halogens a quicker and cheaper option to move to market.
 

alpg88

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A lot of new vehicles are equipped with a form of a standardized LED replacement bulb for fog, turn, DRL and brake/stop functions. Osram, Lumileds, Ichikoh and Toshiba are a few of the major providers for these LED bulbs.

A standardized LED headlight bulb designed with optics specifically for this LED may be in our future as well.
It does not matter, to you as a owner of a car, when your led headlight or a tail light fails, no one will replace leds, you will have to replace entire light assembly, that is just how body shops work, i know cuz i'm closely associated with one.

Well this is exactly it is now, not in the future, how else can it be? of course led designed lights have optics specifically designed for leds, kinda obvious, isn't it.
 
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alpg88

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Making it accessible is just a matter of geometry and the extra plastic material for the larger surface area is negligent in cost.
It is far more than that, it is about layout of under hood components, you can not install a part that a user can not move to assess a bulb for replacement with halogen bulbs, but with leds that do not need an owner to get to the bulb, you can. right now components are so cramped in most cars that to change a bulb you may need to remove an air intake, or an air filter box, which is not an issue, usually few clips, or screws, with non serviceable lights, you can have components like abs module, inverters, ECU.. ect with all plumbing, wiring, and hydraulics.
 

EJR

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It does not matter, to you as a owner of a car, when your led headlight or a tail light fails, no one will replace leds, you will have to replace entire light assembly, that is just how body shops work, i know cuz i'm closely associated with one.

Aside from body shops, if your a person who doesn't know jack shiat about cars, and you realize, for example, that your turn signal on your headlamp or taillamp is out, your going to either A)investigate how to replace the "bulb" or B)take it to the dealer or mechanic to figure it out. In either case, a person with a brain will learn that there is *part* to replace (LED bulb) and that you don't need to buy a whole new lamp.

Well this is exactly now, not in the future, how else can it be? of course led designed lights have optics specifically designed for leds, kinda obvious, isn't it.

Thanks Sherlock. It may have been obvious to you but not so obvious to others. Because you know, you aren't the only person in this forum that reads the information being disseminated.
 

alpg88

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Aside from body shops, if your a person who doesn't know jack shiat about cars, and you realize, for example, that your turn signal on your headlamp or taillamp is out, your going to either A)investigate how to replace the "bulb" or B)take it to the dealer or mechanic to figure it out. In either case, a person with a brain will learn that there is *part* to replace (LED bulb) and that you don't need to buy a whole new lamp.
That is just not how it is in real world for 99,9% of people. there are no replacement leds for factory leds available, it requires you to open the light assembly, which is not easy to do without destroying it for people who never done it before, you'd need to reflow the leds which may or may not have other components on the board, and it most likely would not be the led itself anyway. more likely the electronics would go first. You are grasping at imaginary straws.
 

EJR

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That is just not how it is in real world for 99,9% of people. there are no replacement leds for factory leds available, it requires you to open the light assembly,

Did you not read my post where I clearly showed that there ARE replaceable LEDs in select vehicles? Yes, the majority of LED lamps are not serviceable but there are a handful of lamps right now (with more new models likely to come) where you can physically twist the LED bulb out of its socket and replace it with a new LED one (ie replaceable bulb).

IMG_3328.jpg

 

alpg88

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I saw it, but It is an exception, not the rule.
 

theory816

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It is far more than that, it is about layout of under hood components, you can not install a part that a user can not move to assess a bulb for replacement with halogen bulbs, but with leds that do not need an owner to get to the bulb, you can. right now components are so cramped in most cars that to change a bulb you may need to remove an air intake, or an air filter box, which is not an issue, usually few clips, or screws, with non serviceable lights, you can have components like abs module, inverters, ECU.. ect with all plumbing, wiring, and hydraulics.

I'm going to guestimate that you'll replace a halogen or HID bulb once before needing to replace an LED unit. Either way, you'll have to remove the components that's in the way to get to the bulb or the entire headlight unit. And I also agree that LEDs will open up some space but there's always going to be enough space inside the average engine bay for any component. If you open up the engine bay of any car, you'll see that it has space regardless. In other words, the extra space isn't going to do anything major. The engineers didn't have to give up some major component because of that space.
 

alpg88

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depends on a car, in some, like older audi there is so much space, that you have to remove front bumper, headlights, header panel, radiator, evaporator to replace timing belt and a water pump. in my 2018 pilot i had to remove air intake to replace driver side low beam bulb.
 

theory816

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depends on a car, in some, like older audi there is so much space, that you have to remove front bumper, headlights, header panel, radiator, evaporator to replace timing belt and a water pump. in my 2018 pilot i had to remove air intake to replace driver side low beam bulb.
Lol I get what youre saying. Changing the bulb on my car is difficult too. There's very little room. But it doesn't matter much in terms of accessability since one won't have to mess with the headlight system for years on end.
 

alpg88

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In theory you are not supposed to mess with it at all, ever. it requires no service, unless it fails, or you crash, then it is a body shop time, or replacing the light yourself if you can.
 

theory816

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But then you can say that about any part on a car. Halogens are super easy to replace as it is for most cars.
 

alpg88

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led use less current, thinner wires, which is a plus when you got modules in a car that control pretty much everything, smaller relays..... i'm sure there are other factors as well. bulbs used up all its potential, it is a dead end stage for them, leds are just starting showing it.
 

theory816

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The extra space saved by using LEDs is negligent in your average car because cars are going to keep a standard size regardless. They say that optic fibers were going to replace wires in cars but copper wires are still being used because its more economical and your're not giving up much benefits.

LEDs is good for when you want to try out exotic car designs. But they arnt good when used on your average car.

Depending on the car, you'd want to play to the strength of that car when engineering. A "economical" car shouldn't be using expensive and sophisticated components. It needs reliability, effectiveness and economical. Halogen provides all three which is why they've been used so for long.
 
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alpg88

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They already use fiber optic in cars for a data bus, one FB wire replaces bunch of cables. LED are not sophisticated components in any way, Leds and their drive circuits are used in everything these days, even in items that cost less than a dollar. bulbs are dinosaurs and will be gone soon like it or not.
in early 1900 steam powered cars were simpler and more reliable, effective than gas cars, yet they are gone, and gas engines got so advances today, that steam now seems like stone age tech, same will happen to halogen bulbs
 
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theory816

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They already use fiber optic in cars for a data bus, one FB wire replaces bunch of cables. LED are not sophisticated components in any way, Leds and their drive circuits are used in everything these days, even in items that cost less than a dollar. bulbs are dinosaurs and will be gone soon like it or not.
in early 1900 steam powered cars were simpler and more reliable, effective than gas cars, yet they are gone, and gas engines got so advances today, that steam now seems like stone age tech, same will happen to halogen bulbs
It was said that optics was going to replace all the wires in a car but its only used very sparingly.

And LED's are very sophisticated. High quality LEDs are created using a HIGH vacuum. Low quality LEDs(cheap LEDs) are the rejects from manufacturing. Even HID and halogen bulbs are made using a vacuum but I believe the vacuum level is lower(I could be wrong on that). Halogens simply need less parts and are less sophisticated, but they deliver high performance.

And the steam argument isn't a good one. Things that get phased doesn't necessarily mean its good. It could be due to many things. For example, malls are being phased out for online shopping. But is that a good thing? In some cases yes but also no. Brick and mortar is going to be far more superior.

Steam engines vs ICE, the pros and cons of each technology were heavily tipped on the scale. LED's and Halogen, the scale tipping factors just isn't there to move to LEDs. Again, you're talking about redoing everything, paying more for everything, just to save a couple inches of volume of space(which isn't a problem in the first place for most cars)

So all that said, what can LEDs do that halogens can't on a NEED basis? It's not space(depending on car). It's not reliability(Halogens need to replace on average 1-2 over its lifetime). Its not cost(Halogens are by far more cost effective). So is it performance? Can LED's provide a more even light distribution, reducing dark spots? If it can, is it worth throwing out all the other advantage of halogens?
 
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alpg88

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It was said that optics was going to replace all the wires in a car but its only used very sparingly.



So all that said, what can LEDs do that halogens can't on a NEED basis?
No, it was the way some understood it, no one ever claimed, fiber optic would be used for current, at least i never heard it, FB is used for data, its use will only increase. i see it in modern cars, even non luxury brands. My passport has FB data bus for infotainment system,

pretty much everything bulbs do leds do better, they make more light per watt, they make less heat, more compact... you get the idea, after all we are on a flashlight forum. light and its sources is literally the subject of the forum.

as far as manufacturing, does not matter, they are made by literally trillions worldwide, from huge arrays to tiny ones with a chip as small as a smallest grain of sand, and its production and development only grows, bulbs factories otoh disappearing. very soon there will not be any left, Pretty much all toys today that light up use leds, not bulbs. used in ways that would be impossible for bulbs, and you are telling me that they are too expensive for cars??? yea, sure.

Thou i have no doubts Some bulbs will be produced for a very long time, but its use will be limited to highly specific applications.
 

theory816

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No, it was the way some understood it, no one ever claimed, fiber optic would be used for current, at least i never heard it, FB is used for data, its use will only increase. i see it in modern cars, even non luxury brands. My passport has FB data bus for infotainment system,

pretty much everything bulbs do leds do better, they make more light per watt, they make less heat, more compact... you get the idea, after all we are on a flashlight forum. light and its sources is literally the subject of the forum.

as far as manufacturing, does not matter, they are made by literally trillions worldwide, from huge arrays to tiny ones with a chip as small as a smallest grain of sand, and its production and development only grows, bulbs factories otoh disappearing. very soon there will not be any left, Pretty much all toys today that light up use leds, not bulbs. used in ways that would be impossible for bulbs, and you are telling me that they are too expensive for cars??? yea, sure.

Thou i have no doubts Some bulbs will be produced for a very long time, but its use will be limited to highly specific applications.
I agree on the Fiber Optic part.

As for making more light per watt, less heat, more compact, those things are neglibable in terms of automotive lighting. And if anything, LEDs are bigger since they use a heatsink or their life is shortened.

As for production, sure, LEDs are made by the trillions, but there's grades of LEDs. High quality ones with a high CRI index are much more rare and more expensive. The low quality ones is whats in toys and cheap products. Glass bulbs for automotive lighting is still going strong since it does everything thats needed in automotive application, and with 100 CRI too.
 
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jtr1962

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To clarify, all LED light is inferior light to incandescent light, period. Our eyes evolved under an incandescent light source for about 4B years, and that is why natural light is superior to light from LED. Until LED light matches the spectrum profile of incandescent, that will remain the case. And even then, LED light will only be as good as incan light. That is the very best LED can ever do, and I hope that day comes, but it is not today.
Our eyes evolved under ~5000K incandescent light, not the ~3000K of halogen bulbs, which more resembles the sun at sunset or sunrise. There are already LEDs which come very close to duplicating a solar spectrum, such as the Nichia Optisolis. Therefore, LED is already better than incandescent in terms of duplicating the kind of light our eyes see best under.
Today, LED light has problems. LED literally slowly permanently blinds you, wrecks your Circadian rhythms, disrupts your sleep, contributing to diabetes and heart disease, and takes years off your life.
Years off your life???? Actually sitting in an automobile, breathing the outgassing from the plastic interior, combined with exhaust fumes, takes off many multiples from your life compared to LEDs. The sedentary lifestyle enabled by automobiles causes more heart disease and diabetes than LEDs ever will. Any type of light right before you need to sleep, even incandescent, will throw your circadian rhythm off.
 

jtr1962

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As for production, sure, LEDs are made by the trillions, but there's grades of LEDs. High quality ones with a high CRI index are much more rare and more expensive. The low quality ones is whats in toys and cheap products. Glass bulbs for automotive lighting is still going strong since it does everything thats needed in automotive application, and with 100 CRI too.
Not much price difference these days between low and high CRI. In fact, just quickly browsing prices at Mouser there's no difference between CRI 70 and CRI 90 LEDs in the same family. The CRI 90 ones put out about 20% less light though, so for any given output the LEDs will cost about 20% more. However, at this point the emitters themselves comprise only a small fraction of the total cost of LED lighting. The cost difference then between lower and higher CRI is often close to negligible. In any case, high CRI LEDs aren't "much more rare and expensive".

100 CRI isn't needed for any outdoor lighting applications. In fact, it really isn't needed for anything but demanding color matching use. Most people can't even tell the difference between CRI 90 and CRI 100. Anyway, for outdoor lighting CRI 80 is more than good enough. Or even go with CRI 90 if you're that concerned. It won't increase the cost by much, if at all.
 
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