Overtaking vs passing

[theory816]

What I see being described by idleprocess is neither overtaking nor passing, but what I call "leftlaning." Leftlaners only drive in the left lane. It is a cancer in rural areas, and I believe bykfixer can attest that it has metastasized even on the Interstates in Virginia, especially on the I-64 corridor between Williamsburg and Richmond, where one will experience parades of cars bumper to bumper in the left lane regardless of and in spite of the fact that the right lane is entirely empty, sometimes for miles. Out my way on Route 17, the sickness is maddening. And one can only come to one conclusion here: rednecks don't know the finer points of traffic rules, that the left lane is for passing. They just like to drive there, and when questioned about it invariably the explanation is, "that's just how we do it in the country." But it is instead entitlement: "me first! No one passes me. I'm going fast enough, there's no reason for it."

Leftlaners cause traffic. KEEP RIGHT.

I get the whole, move to the right unless you're overtaking, thing. But its not that simple. Say you're cruising in the left lane and someone is riding your *** so you move over. The guy that passed made it only a couple of feet before riding someone els'es ***.

Moving over when all lanes are used and has alot of traffic is pointless. You should only not be in the left lane when there is very little traffic. The whole notion that one should move over to speeders is a farce.

 

[chillinn]

Say you're cruising in the left lane and someone is riding your *** so you move over. The guy that passed made it only a couple of feet behind riding someone els'es ***.

That's wrong, too, what I consider somewhere between aggressive driving and road rage. What I was describing is someone driving in the left lane, no one in front of them, no one to their right, and traffic piling up behind them because their default driving state is being in the left lane for no earthly reason. They're not making a left, and there is no one to pass, and they're not in a hurry, they're just driving in the left lane because, "that's how we do it in the country." Some will even see you coming, get into the right lane to let you pass, then immediately return to the left lane. While this seems considerate, it is still just wrong, wastes your gas, and unnecessarily contributes to traffic.

The whole notion that one should move over to speeders is a farce.

There is one rule: if there is no one on your right, keep right. It's that simple. I'm not defending speeders, but trying to police other drivers is vigilantism. You drive your vehicle, let them drive theirs, and let the wicked be wicked and let the just be just.

 

[idleprocess]

What I see being described by idleprocess is neither overtaking nor passing, but what I call "leftlaning." Leftlaners only drive in the left lane.

I've used the term "left lane cruiser" (which I've recently learned is a musical act) to indicate the same. To the extent I can explain it, I model it as it simply does not occur to them to drive in the right lane.

"that's just how we do it in the country."

I've heard many secondhand tales of long stretches of "all weather" county roads (marginally paved) where the custom was to drive down the middle of the road - the "better part" - and only move to the right side on the vanishingly rare opportunity one encounters oncoming traffic. To the extent that this was ever the case I believe it was well before my time because I've never encountered any of these roads that go on for long distances nor in particularly straight lines. Road and highway budgets have been markedly greater back ~third of the 20th century onwards concurrent with most of those roads being upgraded to state/federal highways with professional engineering, superior paving, and more regular maintenance.

Not related to the scenario idleprocess puts forth, there are situations where driving in the left lane is safer to avoid reckless side street intrusions onto the main road, as long as left lane traffic is not impeded.

Indeed and I often change to the otherwise clear left lane in advance of onramps if there is the potential for merging traffic without significant margins to simplify the process for myself and other drivers.

There are also a stretches of highway where it's generally safer to be in the left lane so long as you're not impeding traffic:

• Several miles of westbound I-30 in AR has a pronounced washboard effect in the right lane that's unpleasant to the point that it's likely rough on the suspension
• Long stretches of US-69 (mostly divided highway) between Jacksonville and Lufkin are both twisty and hilly; on many occasions I've crested a hill to discover I'm bearing on a vehicle at a >20MPH closure rate with little time to react

Anger and frustration can be a deadly distraction as well.

Hitting acceptance that - short of taking escalating risks - one cannot always maintain desired speed on the highway is one of those aspects of responsibility and maturity that's not always easy. I've seen that refusal to let off the accelerator (or markedly worse - decide later and depress the brakes) result in many close calls, some of which did not result in a collision because other parties took emergency action to avert.

It also helps to understand what window of cruising speeds the present combination of road topology, traffic, weather conditions, and one's own overall and present situational competency will allow. The latter component is tremendously variable because it takes planning and concentration to sustain speeds in excess of the general flow of traffic, which one might not wish to dedicate to the task because the radio needs adjusting or you dropped something on the floor or you'd rather think about something less pressing.

 

[theory816]

That's wrong, too, what I consider somewhere between aggressive driving and road rage. What I was describing is someone driving in the left lane, no one in front of them, no one to their right, and traffic piling up behind them because their default driving state is being in the left lane for no earthly reason. They're not making a left, and there is no one to pass, and they're not in a hurry, they're just driving in the left lane because, "that's how we do it in the country." Some will even see you coming, get into the right lane to let you pass, then immediately return to the left lane. While this seems considerate, it is still just wrong, wastes your gas, and unnecessarily contributes to traffic.



There is one rule: if there is no one on your right, keep right. It's that simple. I'm not defending speeders, but trying to police other drivers is vigilantism. You drive your vehicle, let them drive theirs, and let the wicked be wicked and let the just be just.

The way I see, I don't really care if someone is cruising in the left lane. If im the one who's in a hurry and passing up cars, than I need to be the dynamic one and make the lane changes. If the left lane cruiser moves over, cool. If not, cool too. Its not going to stop me, since driving is dynamic and people have to give and take for smooth driving. And, brakes are not that expensive and its not hard to make a lane change. Not all people all good drivers, and I make alot of leeway for that. Only very few things make me red face when driving. One being that someone cutting you off when the road is clear of other cars, had it happen when I was cruising in the left lane. The cutoff is probably the most dangerous and disrespectful manuever someone can pull on you while on the road.

 

[chillinn]

The way I see, I don't really care if someone is cruising in the left lane.

It's really not a matter of what you'll tolerate, instead it's about traffic laws by state. Most states have strict rules about use of the left lane, known as "keep right laws." In four of them, drivers are required to stay right though with several exceptions. There are five states where left lane driving is prohibited if going under the speed limit. Six states require drivers to move to the right if they are blocking traffic. 27 states require drivers to stay right if they're driving slower than the cars around them. And in Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and West Virginia, it is illegal to drive in the left lane except for turning left or passing. I just learned Virginia passed a new law that can earn slow left lane drivers a $100 fine.

Traffic laws aren't like moral laws. They're rules for safety and to keep the system working, and if everyone followed the rules, the system wouldn't break down, by which usually is meant increased traffic, but also accidents. A red light means stop. Whether it doesn't bother us if (for instance) someone doesn't stop at a red light is kind of beside the point. It isn't necessarily unethical; it's just not safe.

Because the left lane is designated for passing and faster traffic, cruising and lingering in the left lane when unnecessary is dangerous, as a driver moving at a higher rate of speed than someone in front of them in the left lane will require them to execute a maneuver, swerve, change lanes suddenly and pass on the right, which can and does cause accidents.

Everyone with a driver's license in the US learned these rules before they were issued their license. It isn't up to what every individual can tolerate. The rules have a purpose.

 

[bykfixer]

I worked with an ultra-lefty so called libertarian who was a borderline anarchist. He said the gubment shouldn't require stripes down the center of the road and that people should be allowed to choose which side they drive on. I said "dude, there'd be head on collisions everywhere". He says "they'd figure it out after a while". In the same breath he said the gubment should buy our clothes.....

 

[theory816]

It's really not a matter of what you'll tolerate, instead it's about traffic laws by state. Most states have strict rules about use of the left lane, known as "keep right laws." In four of them, drivers are required to stay right though with several exceptions. There are five states where left lane driving is prohibited if going under the speed limit. Six states require drivers to move to the right if they are blocking traffic. 27 states require drivers to stay right if they're driving slower than the cars around them. And in Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and West Virginia, it is illegal to drive in the left lane except for turning left or passing. I just learned Virginia passed a new law that can earn slow left lane drivers a $100 fine.

Traffic laws aren't like moral laws. They're rules for safety and to keep the system working, and if everyone followed the rules, the system wouldn't break down, by which usually is meant increased traffic, but also accidents. A red light means stop. Whether it doesn't bother us if (for instance) someone doesn't stop at a red light is kind of beside the point. It isn't necessarily unethical; it's just not safe.

Because the left lane is designated for passing and faster traffic, cruising and lingering in the left lane when unnecessary is dangerous, as a driver moving at a higher rate of speed than someone in front of them in the left lane will require them to execute a maneuver, swerve, change lanes suddenly and pass on the right, which can and does cause accidents.

Everyone with a driver's license in the US learned these rules before they were issued their license. It isn't up to what every individual can tolerate. The rules have a purpose.

I understand the law and all, but when your driving and you come across certain situations, the law can work against your favor and safe driving.

Driving is not always dictated by law. Alot of it is dictated by judgement and personal situation. That's what sets us apart from AI and autonomous driving.

Again, don't get me wrong. You should be in the right lane for normal driving and leave the left lane to faster and passing drivers. But alot of times, you'll find yourself in the left lane for many reasons. Its not black and white. And as good drivers, you have to be the dynamic one and adjust to the road conditions accordingly. Its not intelligent to expect it to adjust to you, because it generally doesn't.

 

[Lumen83]

So what do you consider a reasonable rate?

A +1MPH closure rate is a delta of 1.47 feet per second. An object of reasonable size moving at this speed is perceptible under normal circumstances such as sitting still, walking, etc where you have the margin to scan widely and investigate movement in your peripheral vision. Much less so in a moving automobile where you are obligated to limit your scanning to a forward angle which decreases with speed.

So expending on +1MPH. A nominal car length is something like 15 feet or 10.2 seconds at +1MPH. Add in -5 car lengths for some degree of safety and that interval to parity is 61.2 seconds or 112 seconds to pull ahead by +5 car lengths, and a good third or so of the approach will be spent in the blind spot (some folks like @Poppy will adjust their mirrors to avoid said blind spot but most don't). An OTR truck hauling a 53' trailer is a maximum 65' long so you're at 143.3 seconds to fully pass with just 5 car lengths of margin; 248.3 seconds to do it with a more comfortable 10 car lengths of margin.

Bump closure rates to +5MPH and there's a factor 5 change - 7.35 feet per second delta, 22.4 seconds to pass an automobile with -/+ 5 car lengths' margin, 49.7 seconds to pass an OTR truck with -/+ 10 car lengths' margin.

I've seen overtakes that took more than five minutes to clear an automobile and going on 10 minutes to clear an OTR truck with minimal clearances and in situations with traffic a deluge of passes on the right as soon as there's enough room to get around. I've also experienced being passed at such a low closure rate that I did not notice the seemingly static vehicle behind me change lanes and disappear into my blind spot only to surprise me creeping forward to my left minutes later. Which begs the question - why bother passing at all since the time savings will at best amount to low single minutes per full day of driving? Bump the cruise control down by -1MPH and live a happier life.

Based on what you describe, I think 5mph difference works out well.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

TL;DR it's best driving technique to overtake then pass rather than just overtake.

I'm of the view that dawdling while overtaking and passing another nearby vehicle can be a recipe for disaster. Of course, every situation's different, but I want to do everything possible to ensure I'm visible and known to the other driver to be there. Dawdling during closer-proximity just invites Murphy to take an active interest.

One thing I try not to do on the highways is: to pass 18-wheeler semi-trucks on the right. But sometimes it's inevitable that certain routes will dictate that trucks sit in a given lane, and the highway splits off to the left and to the right for other routes. No way around this. But one can definitely flash the headlights a couple of times in that lane to the right, to garner awareness, then pass briskly to get out of that spot alongside the truck. But, yes, even here, perhaps particularly here, it seems to be much safer to pass briskly and to minimize the time spent in the "danger zone."

Most drivers seem to be better able to recognize people are nearby, when briskly overtaking and passing, as opposed to dawdling. If nothing else, dawdling calms people and can eventually (seemingly) lead to loss of awareness a person is there. I tend to use the cruise control on highways, assuming traffic isn't dense enough to be a risk. I'll try to set the speed a good 5-7mph faster or slower than vehicles in a neighboring lane ... depending on which lanes we're speaking of. That way, I'm passing them relatively quickly, reducing time in the visual blind spots and reducing the risk of them losing "interest" in nearby vehicles. I get skittish when on cruise control but where a nearby vehicle adjusts speed to mine, ending up "dawdling" next to me. Good way to get forgotten.

Of course, there's overtaking speeds and there's overtaking speeds. Had a schmuck, the other day, pass me at about 50mph+ over my ~38mph speed (in the 35mph zone of the tricky, dark, two-lane country road. He could easily have had a number of vehicles come out from one of the side roads; luckily that didn't happen. Can't imagine that sort of driver will ever appreciate safe or sane driving techniques. He's likely to get someone killed, someday.

As others have pointed out, it's appalling and scary what percentage of drivers, out there, seemingly are in it just for themselves ... and to Hades with everybody else. No matter the risk or cost. IMO, the Covid-19 mess (and the attendant loss of control) helped not a bit, as those on the edge seem to have largely gone over it, behavior-wise, many demanding to remain "in control" behind the wheel even if feeling they've lost all control elsewhere in their lives. (The 2021 numbers were awful, up double-digits as compared to the year prior; and, so far, the preliminary 2022 figures seem to have held roughly steady, up roughly double-digits from 2020.)

Funny, but I still hear the old driving school instructors' lessons in my head, ringing away, whenever I'm in a sketchy situation on the road. Their hard-nosed, defensive approaches to driving has saved my bacon on countless occasions over the decades. I often give a nod of thanks in their general direction, whenever safely surviving yet another lunatic-in-proximity moment amongst my fellow drivers.

 

[idleprocess]

Based on what you describe, I think 5mph difference works out well.

Fast enough to be decisive and reduce complications.

 

[bykfixer]

I'm of the view that dawdling while overtaking and passing another nearby vehicle can be a recipe for disaster. Of course, every situation's different, but I want to do everything possible to ensure I'm visible and known to the other driver to be there. Dawdling during closer-proximity just invites Murphy to take an active interest.

One thing I try not to do on the highways is: to pass 18-wheeler semi-trucks on the right. But sometimes it's inevitable that certain routes will dictate that trucks sit in a given lane, and the highway splits off to the left and to the right for other routes. No way around this. But one can definitely flash the headlights a couple of times in that lane to the right, to garner awareness, then pass briskly to get out of that spot alongside the truck. But, yes, even here, perhaps particularly here, it seems to be much safer to pass briskly and to minimize the time spent in the "danger zone."

Most drivers seem to be better able to recognize people are nearby, when briskly overtaking and passing, as opposed to dawdling. If nothing else, dawdling calms people and can eventually (seemingly) lead to loss of awareness a person is there. I tend to use the cruise control on highways, assuming traffic isn't dense enough to be a risk. I'll try to set the speed a good 5-7mph faster or slower than vehicles in a neighboring lane ... depending on which lanes we're speaking of. That way, I'm passing them relatively quickly, reducing time in the visual blind spots and reducing the risk of them losing "interest" in nearby vehicles. I get skittish when on cruise control but where a nearby vehicle adjusts speed to mine, ending up "dawdling" next to me. Good way to get forgotten.

Of course, there's overtaking speeds and there's overtaking speeds. Had a schmuck, the other day, pass me at about 50mph+ over my ~38mph speed (in the 35mph zone of the tricky, dark, two-lane country road. He could easily have had a number of vehicles come out from one of the side roads; luckily that didn't happen. Can't imagine that sort of driver will ever appreciate safe or sane driving techniques. He's likely to get someone killed, someday.

As others have pointed out, it's appalling and scary what percentage of drivers, out there, seemingly are in it just for themselves ... and to Hades with everybody else. No matter the risk or cost. IMO, the Covid-19 mess (and the attendant loss of control) helped not a bit, as those on the edge seem to have largely gone over it, behavior-wise, many demanding to remain "in control" behind the wheel even if feeling they've lost all control elsewhere in their lives. (The 2021 numbers were awful, up double-digits as compared to the year prior; and, so far, the preliminary 2022 figures seem to have held roughly steady, up roughly double-digits from 2020.)

Funny, but I still hear the old driving school instructors' lessons in my head, ringing away, whenever I'm in a sketchy situation on the road. Their hard-nosed, defensive approaches to driving has saved my bacon on countless occasions over the decades. I often give a nod of thanks in their general direction, whenever safely surviving yet another lunatic-in-proximity moment amongst my fellow drivers.

When I took drivers ed in high school they still did over the road sessions where a teacher took 3 students out for a lesson once a week. I got "stuck with the battle-ax" teacher. See, back then there were two cool ones and the battle-ax. The cool ones as it turned out just let you do your thing. The battle-ax however taught me defensive driving skills that have stuck with me decade after decade. The best part she was actually nice and was very friendly.

When I was a lad I thought my pop drove too slow. We drove all over America in the 70's. He never once got in an accident. Once I got the hang of driving I ended up driving just like him. I don't think I've driven a million miles yet, but feel confident it's been a half million and knock on wood no accidents so far.

 

[Poppy]

I remember when I taught my daughter how to drive, that I was surprised at how many things I am typically subconsciously aware of. For example, I might take note that someone just got into their car in their driveway, and may decide to suddenly pull out. Or when driving down a one way street, with cars parked on both sides, and someone just completed parallel parking his car, he might suddenly open his door, without first looking/checking for oncoming traffic.

Just things to look for.

I am currently teaching my grandson to drive. He is doing well, and takes instruction well. He's learning, gentle acceleration, and gentle braking. When the traffic light turns RED ahead, coast when you are far enough away, but while still at a distance, gently apply his brakes so that he comes to a stop a car length behind the car in front of him. Eventually he'll get the idea to still be rolling when the light turns green.

We talked about maintaining an appropriate following distance, and how that can decrease the likelihood of getting rear-ended, and WHY.

 

[bykfixer]

Remember the Shell gas comercials in the 70's Poppy? I always remember the one about "the egg under the accelerator peddle is your best friend so don't squash it". That was back when the hood of a car was nearly as big as some cars these days and got like 9mpg using 102 octane. 😱

 

[pnwoutdoors]

When I took drivers ed in high school they still did over the road sessions where a teacher took 3 students out for a lesson once a week. I got "stuck with the battle-ax" teacher. See, back then there were two cool ones and the battle-ax. The cool ones as it turned out just let you do your thing. The battle-ax however taught me defensive driving skills that have stuck with me decade after decade. The best part she was actually nice and was very friendly.

When I was a lad I thought my pop drove too slow. We drove all over America in the 70's. He never once got in an accident. Once I got the hang of driving I ended up driving just like him. I don't think I've driven a million miles yet, but feel confident it's been a half million and knock on wood no accidents so far.

Yup.

Two instructors, in driver's ed. One guy was about 6ft 6in and was the varsity football coach; the other, a mild-mannered-looking guy with an iron-clad sense of the "right" way to drive. Both were defensive-driving fanatics, in the "fundamentalist" sense. Never gave an inch, most particularly in those areas of the lessons where fumbling about (on the road) could easily get a person killed. They simply wouldn't tolerate any other way of doing it. (And, they were right, in that.) To this day, I still hear their voices humming away in the background. Eyes constantly scanning ... check the side streets ... evaluate the general flow's "tenor" (agitation, calm, awareness) ... verify the other driver sees you (and, if can't do that, assume he can't). And, above all, as a cover-all stance, just assume the other guy is likely to do the silliest thing and the worst possible moment (and, thus, don't be there at that moment). A bunch of blather, to the average 15yr old kid. But it was absolute gold, every word of it. And I knew it, at the time. Sure enough, the few times I deliberately disregarded their stances and did something anyway, it turned out to be risky in just the way they warned. Smart cookies, both of 'em. Thank you, G & B. You were gems.

 

[bykfixer]

Mine was Mrs Kirkland or something. But yeah a lot of her instruction stuck. Now we weren't trained to drive on the interstate back then and there was a time I avoided it when at all possible. Then my job became working on the interstate so it just became natural to incorparate those early lessons to a driving situation at higher speeds with more vehicles to be wary of.

My first day working beside the interstate was with a lane closure that used cones, I was getting into my truck when a car passing by had a sudden flat front tire "POW". The driver jerked the steering wheel to recover but hit a cone. Just as I closed the door the car hit a cone which went flying "WHAM" into my door. Like hard. I figured had I waited another second to close the door the cone would have closed it for me, leg all the way in or not. 😱 yikes.

Then there was the day a car cut in front of a semi at an off ramp but waited too long. At the top of a hill about 50 yards away some folks and I saw this car being pushed sideways by a big ole semi. We could see the people in the car all hollering and screaming, eyes as big as coffee saucers. The they finally came to a stop the driver fell out and started kissing the ground. The fellow on the passenger side (who had a face full of semi truck grill) got out, walked around a bit and just fell over "splat" onto the pavement. Yup, passing and over taking incorrectly nearly got those fellows killed.

 

[Poppy]

Remember the Shell gas comercials in the 70's Poppy? I always remember the one about "the egg under the accelerator peddle is your best friend so don't squash it". That was back when the hood of a car was nearly as big as some cars these days and got like 9mpg using 102 octane. 😱

Oh yeah, I also remember the one with a seatbelted egg, and one that wasn't wearing its seat belt. Splat!!!

My dad was my instructor. At times he was impatient, and had more confidence in me than I had in myself. "What the hell are you waiting for?" "Why did you let yourself get stuck behind that bus? Didn't you see he was about to stop?" Why did you get stuck here? Didn't you see that guy was going to make a left turn? IF you were paying attention, you could have spaced yourself so that you could have moved over to the right lane and gotten around him.

Yeah... that was Kennedy Blvd. a four lane road, two in each direction, with parking on both sides. The lanes were only about 8 feet wide, with a traffic light at every other block. If one turned RED, a block away, you were still supposed to stop. The traffic lights were mounted on poles at the curb, not hanging overhead, so you needed to look to the side to see the traffic light. And you needed to differentiate between RED traffic lights, and RED neon store display signs.

WIth the lanes being so narrow, one learned to NOT ride side by side. There is/was no left hand turn lane. If one wants to make a left hand turn he had to wait until there was a break in traffic, or for the light to turn RED to stop traffic. Then you would typically make a left at the RED light. There'd be a line of cars waiting for you to get out of the way.

Driving on Kennedy Blvd. is continual practice at merging in traffic. If you can drive on Kennedy, you can drive in NYC. Still today, you'll see it on the morning news during a traffic report. If there is an accident blocking traffic, the slow-down will make it on the news.

My dad taught me to be an aware driver, head always on a swivel, and looking ahead. He taught me to make a U turn, make a K turn, how to back up using my mirrors, and how to back-in a trailer. There was one street, that when going South, the best you could do was get three blocks before coming to a stop. But when going North, they were timed so that if you did 20 mph, you could get past 20 lights without hitting your brakes.

 

[jabe1]

I remember one drivers training scare movie. Mechanized Death. I did the whole training thing over a two week period and I'll never forget this one, right up there with "Reefer Madness ".
When I had to do the on the road part, the instructor picked me up early one Saturday morning, the first thing he said was"do you know where I can get a decent cup of coffee?" It was all pretty relaxed.
Most of what I remember of my " training " is from my dad, behind the wheel of a '63 Valiant convertible.

 

[chillinn]

 

[Poppy]

I point this out to my grandkids while driving.
That's why so often when you see a multi-car crash, it's in the left lane. When something happens to cause a crash, it is like a domino effect.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

I remember one drivers training scare movie. Mechanized Death.

I remember that one. And the '64 Red Asphalt film. Good stuff, for scaring the pants of a teen that isn't predisposed to listen to sense. Definitely left "a mark," that's for sure.

Of course, there were a handful of students of my age at the time I was learning to drive who wouldn't listen and ended up a mess on the pavement. Invariably, the local fire department displayed the wrecked, totaled vehicle on their front lawn for a few weeks, as the nearby high school campus was right across the street. Stark reminder of what stupidity and inattentiveness could yield.

Mechanized Death (1961) @ Internet Archive:


Red Asphalt (1964) @ Internet Archive:



Of course, as aging adults, we see the results all too frequently. In the nearby city, there isn't a day that goes by without another two or three deadly crashes ... most of which seem to be without justification for how the vehicle ended up that way, aside from flat disregard of sensible driving precautions. Same ol', same ol'.