Philips vs Toshiba HIR, output and voltage, does HIR tech follow the standard math?

Bitter

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I understand that the Toshiba HIR has a film which reflects some of the IR portion of the output back to the filament (focused by the spherical shape I guess?) to boost output without increasing input power. The Philips version from what I can see lacks that coating and special shape but still has the same output and life span, I suppose through other methods or some kind of black magic unknown to lay-people like myself.

When increasing voltage to the lamp does the Toshiba HIR behave in the same manner as a standard halogen like the Philips HIR would behave or does the coating amplify the effect increasing output past the standard V^3.4?

Also, how much of the IR does that coating reflect back to the filament? Are there any good freely available papers on those bulbs or that coating?
 

-Virgil-

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I understand that the Toshiba HIR has a film which reflects some of the IR portion of the output back to the filament

If we're talking about the HIR2, then so does the Philips. So does the Vosla. So does the GE. The Philips HIR1 does not have the coating.

When increasing voltage to the lamp does the Toshiba HIR behave in the same manner as a standard halogen like the Philips HIR would behave or does the coating amplify the effect increasing output past the standard V^3.4?

Yes, but it doesn't matter much; the Toshiba HIR bulbs went out of production in 2009 and the last several production batches were of very inconsistent quality. The best HIR2 bulb presently on the market is the Vosla +30.

Also, how much of the IR does that coating reflect back to the filament?

That's a good question. Not a huge amount, because then the bulb would melt down.

Are there any good freely available papers on those bulbs or that coating?

There are probably patents; a Google patent search might turn something up.
 

Sadden

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Since we are on the subject I am curious as to why the technology has not been applied to other bulb types for offroad applications. I would really like an H1/H3/H7/H9 +30 or +50 with an HIR coating. Obviously this cant be applied to dual filament bulbs. But why hasnt this made the move over to driving light bulbs?
 

Bitter

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I should have been more clear, talking just about HIR1/9011 here.
Thanks, I have a pair of Toshiba 9011 (spherical with iridescent coating) on my shelf here and a pair of Philips 9011 in use in my car, aiming for a little more high beam output I'm going to be running relays and heavier wiring to the high beams and wanted to run the better bulb, it seems like I've got the better bulb in use already from what I have on hand. Actually I have 3 Toshiba HIR1, but one of them is badly blackened above the filament and I don't want to risk it exploding like the other one did in my old head lamps. If I'm still not happy with the Philips HIR1 with the improved wiring I'll check out the Vosla +30 you suggested. Is it available in HIR1 as well?
 

-Virgil-

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That's a good question. I've wondered that myself; if we could have the same ~30 lumens/watt out of all the bulb types that we get from HIR1/HIR2, the wattage could be reduced and/or the flux could be increased considerably -- doing both of those things would have a largely beneficial effect on bulb light output (via reduced voltage drop) and headlamp performance (via improved beam focus due to smaller filament). So why hasn't it been done? I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking it's probably because making a working HIR bulb is more complicated than just applying an HIR coating to the glass of an already-designed bulb. There probably have to be changes to the filament; everything probably has to be engineered and specified to work together or you'd get unacceptably short bulb life or other negative characteristics.

Philips and Osram-Sylvania did market lines of reduced-wattage, spec-output headlight bulbs. Philips called theirs EcoVision and OS called theirs EcoBright. They seem to have been a market dud in North America, though at least the Philips line appears to be a current product in Europe. None of these bulbs used HIR technology, they were just reduced-wattage bulbs tweaked in the usual "Plus" manner (like a spec-wattage +50, +80, etc) to arrive back at spec output.
 

Bitter

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At this point I would have to assume it's because halogen and to an extent HID are both 'old tech', the hot new thing is LED and it's 100lm/w efficiencies. When automakers are trying to squeeze out every last bit from vehicles lighting matters too. We'll be seeing more and more cars with LED lighting as standard as time marches forward, but unlike a bulb when your LED fails there goes your $700 headlamp assembly 20 years later, good luck getting a good replacement assembly by that time.

Well except the F150 LED lamps, I heard those have serviceable emitters. Hopefully that'll become the norm.
 
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SubLGT

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...Well except the F150 LED lamps, I heard those have serviceable emitters. ..

Really? That's a shame if it makes modifications easy. Are there threads on the F150 forums about "upgrading" the OE LEDs with "bluer and brighter" LEDs?
 

Bitter

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I have no idea and I have no idea if anyone is trying to do that.

image_35230_zpsywpqcdbv.jpg


But I do think having an emitter/driver that's serviceable like this is a good idea for vehicle longevity and was likely done to put fleet sales at ease as they often look at long term costs and having a fleet of say 2,500 trucks with these lights and say over 10 years 10% experience a failure of one low beam lamp at $250 a lamp vs whatever the whole lamp assembly costs ($1,000 range maybe?) it's a big difference to fleet managers who might be wary of new tech like this increasing costs over time.



Anyway, I'll get one side hooked up to the harness and see how it looks vs the other side with the Philips HIR1 bulbs and maybe I'll see if I can access the high beam bulb without disassembling my car and see how my old Toshiba look on and off the harness too. They're really low hours on them and look excellent under magnification, no visible loss of filament and no roughness where they start to re-accumulate tungsten.
 
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Sadden

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There must be quite a bit of tuning to do to get the IR reflection hitting the filament precisely enoughh for the technology to work.

But the technology must be applicable to other bulb types. Is there any regulation on capsule size that could be preventing them from being accurately dialed in?

What effect would it have on output and bulb life on standard wattage +30 and +50 lamps?
What about on off road 100w bulbs?

Really I want to see this applied to off road and driving lamp bulbs. With LEDs and HIDs following the high kelvin low cri train, i really want to see more high output halogens hit the market. Its one of the reasons im a fan of Fyrlyt. High quality high power halogen awesomeness.
 

-Virgil-

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At this point I would have to assume it's because halogen and to an extent HID are both 'old tech'

No, I don't think that's it. New halogen bulb types (H18 and H19) and new variants (Osram "Night Breaker Laser" just launched) are still coming out.

headlamp assembly 20 years later, good luck getting a good replacement assembly by that time.

That's already the case now, even with halogen lamps.

Well except the F150 LED lamps, I heard those have serviceable emitters. Hopefully that'll become the norm.

Replaceable emitters = morons tampering with their lights to make them bluer, brighter, and otherwise hazardous.
 

-Virgil-

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There must be quite a bit of tuning to do to get the IR reflection hitting the filament precisely enoughh for the technology to work.

I think so!

But the technology must be applicable to other bulb types.

It's often problematic to guess that something "must" or "can't" be the case, when we don't actually know for sure. I'd like to think it should be possible, but I am not a bulb engineer; that is a very specialized area.

Is there any regulation on capsule size that could be preventing them from being accurately dialed in?

No, that's not it. H7, H8, H9, H11, H18, and the Philips, Vosla, and GE HIR2 all use the same capsule, and there's no reason why HB3 and HB4 and HIR1 can't use that same capsule.

With LEDs and HIDs following the high kelvin low cri train, i really want to see more high output halogens hit the market.

I'd prioritize on pushing for high-CRI, lower-CCT LEDs

Its one of the reasons im a fan of Fyrlyt. High quality high power halogen awesomeness

But not even slightly efficient...multiple hundred watts.
 

-Virgil-

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There must be quite a bit of tuning to do to get the IR reflection hitting the filament precisely enoughh for the technology to work.

I think so!

But the technology must be applicable to other bulb types.

It's often problematic to guess that something "must" or "can't" be the case, when we don't actually know for sure. I'd like to think it should be possible, but I am not a bulb engineer; that is a very specialized area.

Is there any regulation on capsule size that could be preventing them from being accurately dialed in?

No, that's not it. H7, H8, H9, H11, H18, and the Philips, Vosla, and GE HIR2 all use the same capsule, and there's no reason why HB3 and HB4 and HIR1 can't use that same capsule. Only difference is filament coil. That's as far as my own knowledge goes; I don't know the specifics of what physically differentiates a 55w HIR2 1700-lumen 1400-hour filament from a 55w HB4 1000-lumen 1000-hour filament. There may or may not be limits I don't know about that constrain the effective use of HIR technology. But it would equally not surprise me to learn there's nothing preventing it but nobody does it.


With LEDs and HIDs following the high kelvin low cri train, i really want to see more high output halogens hit the market.

I'd prioritize on pushing for high-CRI, lower-CCT LEDs

Its one of the reasons im a fan of Fyrlyt. High quality high power halogen awesomeness

But not even slightly efficient...multiple hundred watts.
 
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sadtimes

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Well except the F150 LED lamps, I heard those have serviceable emitters. Hopefully that'll become the norm.

I hope you are wrong... we have enough junk on the market that masquerades as "headlight bulbs"... I have really been looking forward to when people have to replace the entire assembly, then they won't be able to stick a 29.99 HID kit into their clouded and fogged up headlights... Non serviceable lamp assemblies would be a blessing, a true blessing.
 

Magio

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With the cost of a lot of these LED headlights I think it's better to have serviceable emitters than be forced to buy entire new assemblies. People already complain about paying $300-$400 for OEM halogen headlights. What do you expect to happen when they are forced to pay $800-$2000 for OEM Led headlights when an emitter fails prematurely? Im no expert but it seems reasonable that that will increase the likelyhood of them driving with only one working headlight, and increase the likelyhood of them replacing the OEM headlights with aftermarket assemblies that don't work well, when if the emitter was replaceable, that might have been a viable option for them.
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Since we are on the subject I am curious as to why the technology has not been applied to other bulb types for offroad applications. I would really like an H1/H3/H7/H9 +30 or +50 with an HIR coating. Obviously this cant be applied to dual filament bulbs. But why hasnt this made the move over to driving light bulbs?

That's a good question.

Of course, applying it to "other bulb types for offroad applications" is a little tricky. If we're applying it to an "off-road" lamp that uses an H7 bulb, then that H7 bulb's only real option is to consume far less power and produce the same amount of light as a normal H7, because that bulb is a regulated type. That's not a bad thing, it'd result in fuel savings overall and be less of a drag on a car's battery in the winter time (all the additional headlamp usage and less of a chance for the charging system to "keep up"). Now, for a specialty bulb that doesn't interchange with the others because of the base design, then it could be a "full wattage", ultra-bright lumen monster.

With respect to making bulbs with that coating, it seems to me on just a topical analysis that the envelope's radius must be such that the IR-reflective coating can reflect the IR back to the filament more effectively based on the wavelengths reflected, yet also still allow the envelope to heat rapidly enough to maintain the halogen cycle. The filament might need some tweaking (someday I might take some filaments to a nearby lab to see if they can tell me what the difference is between a 9006 and an HIR2 filament), and in general a lot of retooling would need to go on so that these bulbs can be made consistently good.

Osram "Night Breaker Laser"
I still don't get why they don't use a deep yellow instead of blue to bring the overall output back down to legal spec. Blue light is still blue whether in the beam or in the periphery of the beam-- I don't want to see all that blue light from headlamps! And there they go again with the "20% whiter" nonsense. How 'bout they instead go on about the patented Golden Aura™ (a play on the symbol for gold (Au)) "enhancing your conspicuity without introducing glare to other drivers" or something. The light IN the beam will still be white, of course. But not 20% whiter, considering white light is white.
 

Bitter

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I don't see people messing with the emitters and modules too much since they would also need to change the driver which I'm sure talks on data buss with the vehicle. The odds of being able to change the color or output without changing the driver at all is pretty slim isn't it?
 

Alaric Darconville

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I don't see people messing with the emitters and modules too much since they would also need to change the driver which I'm sure talks on data buss with the vehicle. The odds of being able to change the color or output without changing the driver at all is pretty slim isn't it?

They'll figure it out and then brag about it on the F150OverCompensationForums.biz forums. They'll sing whatever doofus' praises that figures it out, even after driving into the sinkhole they didn't see in time.
 

Bitter

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I think it's more likely we'll just see more tinted headlights. I had one of these trucks with the LED headlights on the highway this evening in my driver side mirror and there was some odd blue glare from an angle but overall not too bad, not nearly as bad as many new Corolla with LED headlights glare.
 

Sadden

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If we're applying it to an "off-road" lamp that uses an H7 bulb, then that H7 bulb's only real option is to consume far less power and produce the same amount of light as a normal H7, because that bulb is a regulated type.
For true off road purposes I fail to see how it would be different than a product like the osram rallye H7, which outputs far more than legal spec on a standard H7. And many people use those quite successfully in many on road headlamps as well.

I don't see people messing with the emitters and modules too much since they would also need to change the driver which I'm sure talks on data buss with the vehicle. The odds of being able to change the color or output without changing the driver at all is pretty slim isn't it?
Do we know what emitter those lamps use? There must be a lower cct higher cri variant that could run off the same driver.

I'd prioritize on pushing for high-CRI, lower-CCT LEDs
I do, but i feel as though I am a whisper in a stadium full of angry chimps demanding "whiter" and "whiter" light when many OEM lamps are already far too blue for practicality.
 
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