Pila Charger Voltage Questions?

[recDNA]

My PILA consistantly charges to only 4.16 - 4.17 volts. Hitting reset has no effect. It only charges for 10 seconds then goes back to green. (Now I know this is within spec)

 

[jmcf1949]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

My Pila IBC charges very consistently to the same 4.16/4.17V. I believe this is perfect as it will give me a few more charge/discharge cycles thereby extending the battery life a bit.

Jim - Semper Fi

 

[kramer5150]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

safety factor perhaps?
My WF-149 only charges to ~4.18, my cells are consistently 4.15 hot off. I personally see this as an advantage. Especially since a good percentage of my lights use buck drivers anyways.

 

[jasonck08]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

I've read of some people's PILA chargers only charging to 4.12v, and some peoples over charging to 4.24v.

I wouldn't recommend the PILA charger despite it being so well "praised" around the CPF community.

Get a hobby charger that you can calibrate the final charge voltage. I can make mine stop at anywhere between 4.18 and 4.22v, and it cost me the same is the PILA charger. It has a digital readout and can charge like 5-6 different battery chemistries.

 

[ampdude]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Don't leave us in suspense. What model do you use? Does it charge NiZn batteries?

 

[recDNA]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Well I notice the runtime dif so I'd like my PILA to charge to 4.2 as advertised. At first I felt as you do but then I noticed that I'm getting less runtime. I'm disappointed.

 

[Ziemas]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Well I notice the runtime dif so I'd like my PILA to charge to 4.2 as advertised. At first I felt as you do but then I noticed that I'm getting less runtime. I'm disappointed.

Are you sure your DMM isn't off? I was getting funky readings with a bad DMM and my Pila. With a better DMM all is as it should be.

 

[hazna]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

My pila seems to charge to 4.20V on one channel and 4.22V on the other channel. One would expect some variation between individual samples. Cheap DMM's are not always that accurate anyway...

 

[45/70]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Well I notice the runtime dif so I'd like my PILA to charge to 4.2 as advertised. At first I felt as you do but then I noticed that I'm getting less runtime. I'm disappointed.

That seems odd. The difference between 4.17 Volts and 4.20 Volts with a LiCo Li-Ion cell, is the difference between 97% and 100% charge. I'd say if you actually notice a difference in runtime, that your problem is likely something else.

As for any charger that only charges to 4.17 Volts as opposed to 4.20 volts, I'd look at the bright side, your cells will last longer being charged to this lower level. And, as I said, the difference in capacity should be negligable.

Dave

 

[recDNA]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

That seems odd. The difference between 4.17 Volts and 4.20 Volts with a LiCo Li-Ion cell, is the difference between 97% and 100% charge. I'd say if you actually notice a difference in runtime, that your problem is likely something else.

As for any charger that only charges to 4.17 Volts as opposed to 4.20 volts, I'd look at the bright side, your cells will last longer being charged to this lower level. And, as I said, the difference in capacity should be negligable.

Dave

After all the raves about Pila here and paying more than twice what the WF-139 cost I am disappointed. Owner after owner find the same flaw - charging less than the optimum 4.2 volts so it isn't my multimeter. Although the charging algorithm isn't optimal somehow my WF-139 always charges to 4.20 volts. You would think Pila could calibrate them properly or include some sort of manual calibration capability.

 

[Ragiska]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

After all the raves about Pila here and paying more than twice what the WF-139 cost I am disappointed. Owner after owner find the same flaw - charging less than the optimum 4.2 volts so it isn't my multimeter. Although the charging algorithm isn't optimal somehow my WF-139 always charges to 4.20 volts. You would think Pila could calibrate them properly or include some sort of manual calibration capability.

for many, 4.2v is non-optimal. i imagine you could easily find someone who would gladly trade you your charger that undercharges cells by roughly 3% so they can get over twice the cell life.

 

[Lite_me]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

I usually leave the battery questions to the experts here, but I thought I'd add my 2¢.

I have and use a Pila IBC charger.

As Li-Ion batteries age, they will no longer reach and sustain the optimal 4.2v reading.

Different manufacturers sometimes result in a different outcome reading.

Different battery types, ie: 18650s, 16340, 14500s will charge to different states, because of their size, I guess. :thinking: A least this has been my experience anyway. With new AWs of those 3 sizes, The rcr123s top off @ 4.16-4.17, the 14500s @ 4.17-4.18 and the 18650s @ 4.19-4.20. Consistently.

With all the variables considered above, add contact resistance, DMMs, temperature, resting time, and there's probably others, I think 4.17v is ideal.

I'm tickled when I see that number. That's what I want to see. That also means that if my readings happen to be on the low side, I have that bit of cushion. Perfect!

 

[TooManyGizmos]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

I agree with recDNA ... and I like that manual calibration capability... Idea.

After all the raves about Pila here and paying more than twice what the WF-139 cost I am disappointed. Owner after owner find the same flaw - charging less than the optimum 4.2 volts so it isn't my multimeter. Although the charging algorithm isn't optimal somehow my WF-139 always charges to 4.20 volts. You would think Pila could calibrate them properly or include some sort of manual calibration capability.

 

[recDNA]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

for many, 4.2v is non-optimal. i imagine you could easily find someone who would gladly trade you your charger that undercharges cells by roughly 3% so they can get over twice the cell life.

"With all the variables considered above, add contact resistance, DMMs, temperature, resting time, and there's probably others, I think 4.17v is ideal. "


And if Pila advertised that it charged to 4.17 volts because that is optimal the purchaser can make an informed choice.

If your Olight SR90 achieves lower than advertised output are you happy because now you have increased runtime? You might be satisfied but I buy a light like that for maximum output and I buy a more expensive charger to more accurately and safely charge to EXACTLY 4.20 volts.

I don't care if 99/100 readers here prefer 4.17 volts. If a product is supposed to charge to 4.2 volts it should charge to 4.2 volts period. No excuses. The failure to do that makes it a less than superior product. Reviews that bubble with praise for its safe algorithm should also warn that it fails to charge to 4.2 volts. In fairness, I have read such posts but I think it is fair to say this product does not do as it is advertised to do.

Perhaps one reason I have different priorities is because I recharge fairly seldom. I'm more of a collector than constant user. I seldom use any of my flashlights for more than 10 minutes at a time. I really don't care at all about extending battery life. I do care about safety though. If the algorithm is safe as advertised it should be able to safely charge to 4.2 volts. Those who prefer to charge to less than 4.2 volts can always take their batteries out before the light turns green. I have no option to fully charge my batteries on this charger.

None of my batteries has been charged more than 3 times and all of my batteries of all sizes and chemistries charge to 4.16-4.17 volts on the Pila. These same batteries charge to 4.2 volts on the WF-139. There may be no practical reason I NEED a perfect 4.2 volt charge but I paid for it and so I expect it. I could easily be mistaken about less runtime. I never measured it scientifically. My disappointment about the failure to charge to 4.2 volts probably colored my judgement. I do feel safer. I hope THAT belief is justified and I suspect it is.

I will continue to use the Pila with my IMR batteries because they lack protection and my RCR-123 batteries because I think they may be more susceptible to damage from the WF-139 algorithm. I'm not saying it is a bad product. I am saying it is a less than great product because it fails to do as advertised. I'll charge my protected 18650's on my WF-139. BTW, all of my lithium rechargeable batteries are AW.

 

[jasonck08]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Don't leave us in suspense. What model do you use? Does it charge NiZn batteries?

I just use a Turnigy Accucell-6. They are like $24+shipping @ HobbyKing.

With the voltage calibration you can adjust the final charging voltage. When i got mine it would only charge to 4.17 or 4.18v. Then I calibrated it a bit and can usually get it to termiante the charge at 4.20 right on the dot.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

The charger should charge to 4.2 volts, or whatever an individual LiIon cell will allow.

Bill

 

[45/70]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

After all the raves about Pila here and paying more than twice what the WF-139 cost I am disappointed. Owner after owner find the same flaw - charging less than the optimum 4.2 volts so it isn't my multimeter. Although the charging algorithm isn't optimal somehow my WF-139 always charges to 4.20 volts. You would think Pila could calibrate them properly or include some sort of manual calibration capability.

OK, I think I understand your disappointment. Let me cover a few points that will perhaps allow you to feel better about your Pila.

First, I wouldn't say that charging to less than 4.20 Volts is necessarily a flaw. The Magic "4.20 Volts" isn't really magical at all. It is merely the center of the 4.20 +/- 0.05 Volt charging specification. Charging to less than 4.20 Volts allows more cycle life of cells at the cost of reducing the charge by a few percent. Charging above 4.20 Volts reduces cycle life, but allows a few more percent capacity to be obtained. 4.20 Volts is just the middle ground here.

Second, as Lite_me mentioned, a charger that uses a proper algorithm, but with a fixed charge rate cut off, such as the Pila utilizes, will not charge cells of different capacities, all to the same voltage. The higher the capacity of the cell, the higher the end voltage will be. The lower the capacity of the cell, the lower the ending voltage will be. This is a result of having a fixed charge rate cutoff point, as opposed to a variable one, such as a hobby charger utilizes.

A third point, a charger that forces the cell to a certain voltage before terminating the charge, rather than utilizing the 0.1-0.03C CV cutoff of a proper algorithm, such as the WF-139, abuses the cell and shortens the cycle life. As I jokingly referred to in another thread, this could be seen as an advantage, as it speeds up the death of cells that are in suboptimal condition, and forces you to buy new ones sooner. Note also, that while the Pila's fixed cutoff is a departure from the proper algorithm, it usually falls within the 0.1-0.03C range, for most cells that it is used to charge.

One final note, when using a charger which utilizes a proper algorithm, as cells age, the end voltage will gradually become lower, as the IR of degraded cells won't allow the cell voltage to reach the same level as when the cell was in better condition. I look at this as being a handy feature, as it is an additional way you can guage the condition of your cells. This is something that when using a charger such as the WF-139, you will not be aware of, as it will allways charge the cell to the same voltage.

I hope these comments allow you to look at your Pila in a different light. As I have said before, I don't own a Pila and never have, but the information available here on the Forums is sufficient enough, for me anyway, to recommend it over most other consumer type chargers out there. Hopefully this will change, competition is a good thing for everybody, but really I think you made a good choice.

Dave

 

[recDNA]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Thanks Dave...although I don't understand all the technical reasons for your argument I DO get the point.

A far as battery degredation all of my batteries are AW and none have been charged more than 3 times.

My point is more simple but I think still fair. If the product design makes it unable to charge to 4.20 volts or the developers believe 4.20 isn't optimal it should simply be advertised that way.

Advertise "The superior charging algorithm of the Pila Charger is designed to cut off from 4.16 to 4.18 volts depending upon the size and condition of your batteries because that will increase the number of charging cycles " (followed by an explanation like yours).

Then the purchaser can decide and even the novice won't be disappointed with the performance of the charger.

Isn't that fair?

Again, my intent isn't to rip the product. If it is safer it is better as far as I'm concerned. I just like the opportunity to make an informed purchase.

 

[45/70]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

Yeah, I could go along with you on that, rec. The problem that all of these chargers share in common though, is that they are really good at telling you how wonderful they are, but always fall short of telling you any actual useful information about them. It seems that resposibility falls on us, the users, to determine.

Dave

 

[Ragiska]

Re: Why Does My PILA only Charge to 4.17 volts?

A far as battery degredation all of my batteries are AW and none have been charged more than 3 times.

li-ion cells degrade with both cycles and TIME. they begin degrading from the second they are made, and the loss is non-recoverable. storing at full charge increases the rate of degradation.