Poor man's McE2S?

chillinn

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I'm still learning, but I understand McGizmo invented this 2-stage switch, and Surefire used and still uses the design in some lights, like the A2 Aviator.

Questions for the tailcap gurus:

Any idea of the world-inventory of genuine McE2S hardware? How many McE2S did McGizmo sell? What might someone pay for the genuine article, today?

Are any stock Surefire 2-stage tailcaps incan E-series compatible?

Is there an obvious method of modifying an E-series thread-compatible tailcap to be mechanical dual-stage (a poor man's McE2S)?

Thanks in advance for the edification.
 
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DaFABRICATA

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There is a way to make a poor man McE2S with a Z57 clicky.
If I remember correctly, a resistor is soldered inline between the spring and ground ring.
It will function as a twisty now, except for high, you click "On" the switch.
Hope this helps.
I'm glad I stocked up on the McE2S and McC2S when I had the chance.
 

vicv

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My question is why? It will not work properly with an Incan light. Incans are voltage dependent and you'll be dropping it too far to produce any real light
 

chillinn

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My question is why? It will not work properly with an Incan light. Incans are voltage dependent and you'll be dropping it too far to produce any real light

Well, that depends on your definition of improperly. My answer is, for better runtime with lower light levels for sensitive and dark adapted eyes.
 

vicv

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Of a brown or sickly yellow output. A vastly underdriven Incan is not what you want. If you want low output get a low output bulb and an aw soft start switch. I don't believe they'll work for an e series light though
 

vicv

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Try this if you have the parts. Run a 9v bulb on a single AA. That is the kind of light you can expect
 

vicv

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I understand that but pwm is the only way you're going to get an Incan bulb to put out lower output. Putting a resistor in line is a bad way to do it. It's not like an led where just the brightness decreases. You'll get a terrible colour and efficiency shift. The bulb is designed for a specific voltage. You'll be reducing the voltage by a lot. Maybe 80%.
 

vicv

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The Incan aviator doesn't use its two stage switch to lower the output of the Incan bulb. The low mode turns on three 5mm LEDs. Because the Incan bulb can't be lowered
 

chillinn

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I understand that but pwm is the only way you're going to get an Incan bulb to put out lower output. Putting a resistor in line is a bad way to do it. It's not like an led where just the brightness decreases. You'll get a terrible colour and efficiency shift. The bulb is designed for a specific voltage. You'll be reducing the voltage by a lot. Maybe 80%.

Thanks, vivc, that sounds absolutely perfect, exactly what I am looking for, as I already stated.

The Incan aviator doesn't use its two stage switch to lower the output of the Incan bulb. The low mode turns on three 5mm LEDs. Because the Incan bulb can't be lowered

I'm not sure how that makes it not the same exact switch. It's the same, doesn't matter what the switch is used for, it's still the switch doing what it does the way it was intended to do it.

vivc, no offense, but you've been OT since you started posting, and you're littering the thread for some reason with double posts instead of just editing your last post. What gives? You can't troll a troll, brother.

I'd really rather have some accurate answers to my questions rather than a solution looking for a problem.
 
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vicv

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I apologize if the double posting is the wrong way to do it. If what you're looking for is a sickly brown light then I guess I'm off base trying to tell you it won't work like you want. Yes an aviator switch is the same type switch but will not give a lower output like it does on an aviator. T seemed to me you were confused as you wanted a dual output Incan light like an aviator but you will not get that on another light without an extremely unimpressive low beam. I don't think you understand how bad it will be but in the name of experimentation...
I'm an in no way a troll. The reason why I'm not telling you what you want to hear is because you can't have it. Period. That's also why no one else is chiming in
 

chillinn

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I apologize if the double posting is the wrong way to do it. If what you're looking for is a sickly brown light then I guess I'm off base trying to tell you it won't work like you want. Yes an aviator switch is the same type switch but will not give a lower output like it does on an aviator. T seemed to me you were confused as you wanted a dual output Incan light like an aviator but you will not get that on another light without an extremely unimpressive low beam. I don't think you understand how bad it will be but in the name of experimentation...
I'm an in no way a troll. The reason why I'm not telling you what you want to hear is because you can't have it. Period. That's also why no one else is chiming in

Ironically, with as much of my intent as you have incorrectly arrived at by reading through the lines and attempting to project on me what I really want (which is in fact what you want), I already have an McE2S, and I'm running it in an E tailcap with an E2E and Elite head, and it works exactly like I expect and just the way I want. It's quite nice, and frankly, your description of it is rather overly negative. It's as if you've never personally experienced it first hand. But I'd like more information about McE2S, because I would like another, a second, and I figured these are pretty rare and hard to come by, so I was hoping to discover how to duplicate it as painlessly as possible. I really appreciate that you want to help, and that you have a lot of experience and good knowledge, but I really am seeking that for which I have asked. Please don't take any offense!
 
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DaFABRICATA

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I didn't realize this was the incandescent section when I replied.
The McE2S is definitely not meant for use with incandescent but, for LED only.
The Surefire A2 Aviator is a regulated incandescent which is why the bulb only comes on after the LED when the tailcap is tightened or fully pressed. The driver circuitry is designed specifically to work this way. As stated, the LED's provide the "low" output, while the regulated incandescent is used for the "high" mode.
I'm not sure why you'd be against the PWM design of the AW switch. It achieves the desired result and there is not detection of pulse in output from the PWM like there is when used with some LED lights.
 

archimedes

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Be aware that significantly underdriving an incandescent lamp may cause the envelope to darken and reduce its expected service duration.
 

chillinn

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CPF absolutely rules. But everyone needs to understand that sometimes someone else is using something that you use in a completely different way for completely different purposes. I am not rescuing anyone, I am not trying to cut through fog or snow, I am not hunting anything, I am not searching around in the dark for lost things, and I am not lighting up the yard. I realize I must sound like a lunatic, but I am merely creating ambient space for myself. Sickly yellow warm incan light is precisely what I expected and precisely what I am still looking for in an incan low mode. It's ok that I am coloring outside the lines.

I wanted to thank you for your first post, DaFABRICATA, but it took some time for it to sink in... but it sounds about right, and it gives me something to chew on, a direction to start.

I also must thank you archimedes for reminding me in another thread about PWM in incan drivers, specifically AW's Softstart. Though the PWM in the Aviator doesn't bother me, I am getting the most exquisite migraines from another PWM switch, the Lightsaver. I can't see or detect the PWM in any way, none of the standard detection methods work, but it matters not, even if I didn't know it was there, it is the source and trigger of pain, and it doesn't take long. FWIW, I don't mind that my lamps will not be running ideally, and I expect them to get deposits and meet premature ends. Thanks to Tad, I am not too concerned with the cost of the need for an increased replacement cycle.


So if there's a better solution to using an McE2S instead, that will give me incan modes with better runtime without PWM or anything like PWM, then in that case, the thread is open to suggestions. But otherwise, I don't think it would be a tragedy if at some future date someone else found this thread and was seeking the answers I was seeking and actually found them. Here.


edit: Though I stated I have an McE2S, I believe I am mistaken, and what I must have is what DaFABRICATA described in his first post, the poor man's McE2S, and probably not McGizmo hardware. I'd really like another one. I wish I had the skills to create one myself, but even if I had the knowledge, there is slim chance of my hands doing anything so amazing. So if someone knows how and is for hire, please let me know.
 
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vicv

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Another choice may be the 2 stage switch from elzetta. It's on a 6p like host. Not sure if it'll work for other lights or not. It's also a clicky if that matters instead of a twisty. Also the surefire l2x is e series compatible and it has a 2 stage switch
One thing to keep in mind though. The surefire switches only had around a 10 ohm resistor in them. They didn't limit the current like an elzetta 2 stage cap or malkoff head. The light used the resistance to inform the driver of the setting. So it may not make the light output too yellow in your case but it may also fry because it may have too much current flowing through it. I don't believe they're a power resistor
 
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labrat

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.... Though the PWM in the Aviator doesn't bother me, I am getting the most exquisite migraines from another PWM switch, the Lightsaver. I can't see or detect the PWM in any way, none of the standard detection methods work, but it matters not, even if I didn't know it was there, ...

There is no PWM regulation in the Aviator.
It is a voltage regulating circuit keeping the voltage to the incan bulb up to 4 V during use.
The LEDs are On as well when the incan bulb is On.

The McE2S circuit when installed in a light's tail has a resistor In-Line which connects first and lets the LED have a lower voltage , and a lower output too , before the tail is pushed or screwed all in. (Some of the voltage will be over the resistor.)
When the tail is all pushed all in, or screwed all in, the resistor in the McE2S switch is shorted, so there is no added resistance in the circuit , and the LED will get all the voltage (AND power! )
I have a few of these ; nice , rugged and very reliable tail switch!
 

chillinn

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Another choice may be the 2 stage switch from elzetta. It's on a 6p like host. Not sure if it'll work for other lights or not. It's also a clicky if that matters instead of a twisty. Also the surefire l2x is e series compatible and it has a 2 stage switch

This is pure gold, vivc, thank you!



One thing to keep in mind though. The surefire switches only had around a 10 ohm resistor in them. They didn't limit the current like an elzetta 2 stage cap or malkoff head. The light used the resistance to inform the driver of the setting. So it may not make the light output too yellow in your case but it may also fry because it may have too much current flowing through it. I don't believe they're a power resistor

Understood. The LX2 tailcap initially sounds like a viable 2-stage tailcap "platform" to use as is or modify to make it better suited for incan, if I can find a modder with the necessary skills that understands my requirements, even if only because the tailcap is already thread compatible with E-series. The Elzetta tailcap also sounds even more promising for its virtues, but will require sacrificing a working light. You have revealed some big secrets to me, vicv! Thank you!




There is no PWM regulation in the Aviator.
It is a voltage regulating circuit keeping the voltage to the incan bulb up to 4 V during use.
The LEDs are On as well when the incan bulb is On.

With respect, labrat, now we have some conflicting information. My claim that the LVR regulator in the incan A2 Aviator uses PWM is based on another and more informed CPF member's post, moderator js:

js said:
Willie Hunt's LVR

Who the heck is Willie Hunt, anyway? you may be wondering. He is an engineer at SureFire, LLC, and he is the designer and creator of the LVR pulse width modulated regulators for use with incandescent flashlights. The name "LVR" actually stands for "lightbulb voltage regulator." You can check out his webpage at Willie Hunt's Lightbulb Voltage Regulators for more details and for some great information. The short of it is that the LVR3 series of regulators are micro-processor controlled PWM voltage regulators that are highly efficient, small, precise, and sophisticated.

Sounds like PWM! But even now I am unsure if the PWM is in the circuit only and doesn't affect the visible output, or if the lamp is indeed being pulsed with PWM. I need to go back and read js excellent post again. And again.



The McE2S circuit when installed in a light's tail has a resistor In-Line which connects first and lets the LED have a lower voltage , and a lower output too , before the tail is pushed or screwed all in. (Some of the voltage will be over the resistor.)
When the tail is all pushed all in, or screwed all in, the resistor in the McE2S switch is shorted, so there is no added resistance in the circuit , and the LED will get all the voltage (AND power! )
I have a few of these ; nice , rugged and very reliable tail switch!

That is my understanding, too. Thanks for further clarifying.
 
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vicv

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No problem. You will not need to sacrifice a light. The two stage elzetta tail cap is sold separately. I think around $40

All DC switching regulators use pwm. That's how it makes an average voltage. I believe with the a2 it doesn't pulse the bulb on and off. It pulses the source on and off and filters it to be a mostly constant output from the driver to the bulb if that makes sense. Regardless even if it is pwm to the bulb it won't be noticeable. With an Incan bulb there's a element which heats up and holds some heat. So as the voltage pulses the element never gets a chance to cool so there's no flickering. Unlike an led that is instant. That's why an Incan bulb still glows for a couple seconds or less after you turn it off
 

chillinn

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No problem. You will not need to sacrifice a light. The two stage elzetta tail cap is sold separately. I think around $40

This just gets better and better, thanks.


All DC switching regulators use pwm. That's how it makes an average voltage. I believe with the a2 it doesn't pulse the bulb on and off. It pulses the source on and off and filters it to be a mostly constant output from the driver to the bulb if that makes sense. Regardless even if it is pwm to the bulb it won't be noticeable. With an Incan bulb there's a element which heats up and holds some heat. So as the voltage pulses the element never gets a chance to cool so there's no flickering. Unlike an led that is instant. That's why an Incan bulb still glows for a couple seconds or less after you turn it off

I understand that it is a common belief, and a strong one, that incan PWM can't be seen. The problem is this is a fallacious argument, because it begs the question "can unseen PWM cause problems?" And unfortunately, the answer is yes. In other threads I have made this abundently clear using counterexamples, such as with Carbon Monoxide, "CO is never a problem because you can't see it." Even if you cannot detect PWM, it can cause serious problems, such as siezure in epileptics, and migraine in those that get them, and I am here to tell you first hand that, specifically, the PWM in the LightSaver Miser tailcap for incan E-series, which I can't visually detect, causes me to rapidly get headache and if I continue using it causes severe migraine. This is unfortunate for me, because otherwise, that tailcap is pretty neat. Regardless, I will have to seek a CC solution, because PWM in incan completely obliterates any benefit of incan over LED for me. I can't enjoy the warm glow if it is killing me.

I really believe PWM needs to be eliminated in all forms for flashlights, and those that it does not bother need to grow some empathy, and, you know, start caring about their fellow man before they come across their own karma, and no one empathizes. If everyone said "NO" to PWM, flashlight manufacturers would figure out how to eliminate it. If PWM disappeared off the face of the earth, no one would cry about it. Yet some members are so loyal to their favorite lights they will insist, irrationally, that PWM is a miracle of ingenuity, when in fact, it is a side effect, and a pest. Constant Current is a viable alternative in all cases, and is always superiour to PWM, all things considered, except for a few less important applications, such as less tint shift at extremely low output. My migraine trumps that tint shift. The argument that some don't mind it, so it is ok, is a terrible argument. The only way to change an industry is if there is near ubiquitous consent among consumers. If you (royal 'you') don't mind PWM, that's great... but it is not really a positive argument for PWM, it is apathy. And if you (royal 'you') don't care, then we all can do without it.
 
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