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Preon P1 MKIII
- Thread starter Newguy2012
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
No response from support email yet.
Did anyone else notice the runtimes on the product page were lowered again? Specs now read:
Estimated (Under Review)
Low: 1 lumen, 50 hrs
Medium: 15 lumens, 4 hrs
High: 60 lumens, 1 hrs
Max: 100 lumens, .5 hrs-
Burst: 100 lumens, .5 hr
Not sure how I feel about the fact that these changes are quietly being made after 500 lights were sold...
Did anyone else notice the runtimes on the product page were lowered again? Specs now read:
Estimated (Under Review)
Low: 1 lumen, 50 hrs
Medium: 15 lumens, 4 hrs
High: 60 lumens, 1 hrs
Max: 100 lumens, .5 hrs-
Burst: 100 lumens, .5 hr
Not sure how I feel about the fact that these changes are quietly being made after 500 lights were sold...
I guess “soon” is like “beauty?”
******
On another note, my original battery ran out/started flashing fast. I immediately switched to another ReCyko battery and the mode changed from configuration 3 to configuration 4...or 5. I can’t really tell which one give the way this driver has been set up.
Anyway, really frustrating I must admit. Does this mean that every time my battery runs out while in the light that I’m going to have to reset the mode again? And again, and again, and again, and again.....?
*Sigh*
All these “mysterious” unknowns are getting more and more difficult to get past.
And really, at this point, why update the website with more apparently daily changing stats? All of us that already have the light now know that none of the runtimes we read were true anyway...
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archer6817j
Enlightened
Hi all,
Sorry for the radio silence, I was out all last week and I’ve been fighting a migraine the last three days. I take full responsibility and humbly apologize to anyone who is upset by the run time situation. Also, Got_Lumens is just helping me out on the forums because he's a good guy, so no one should be looking to him for any apologies or action on my behalf. I also want to thank you for reporting your feedback and helping us identify a totally unexpected problem. Yes the numbers originally posted to the site were incorrect (see below) and there does seem to be a legitimate efficiency issue with the driver (also see below).
Along with your forgiveness, I'm asking for a little bit of understanding as well. I totally get some of you guys are upset. What you might not realize is that it's also upsetting on this end. I would wager I'm actually more troubled by the current situation than you good folks. You might have bought one or more Preons that you aren't happy with, but I have 500. I lose sleep over it. I'm frustrated by the situation. It's incredibly demoralizing. It's one more thing on my plate that shouldn't really be there. I just want you to keep in mind there are two sides to this.
If you are familiar with Prometheus, you know I pride myself on being accurate and transparent. Due to my workload, run time testing was not a priority compared to the other priorities that exist in the business, particularly when I had no reason to suspect a significant problem. Mea Culpa.
Pre-Production Lights:
As stated on the product page, this was a "pre-production" run. I talked about the coatings (specifically) because that was the primary intention of the test run. This is the "unknown" that I "knew" I was testing for. The Preon has been around for years, and frankly I wasn't expecting any problems with the driver. We changed the UI, drive levels, and the PWM frequency. None of these changes created a big red run time flag. The factory's engineer didn't see any theoretical issues with the driver either. Unfortunately I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know if this is a component issue, software issue, or something else. I don't know if the problem is the result of one of those changes...or something else entirely. I'm currently working with the factory to sort this out.
I did intentionally call this a "pre-production" run because (by definition) that means that it's not full production, and I felt that was being sufficiently transparent. Again, I had no reason to suspect there would be any driver problems so there was no reason to call that out...but the entire purpose of pre-production is to detect any problem before full production. And there are always problems in manufacturing. Always. Even when you've been making the same thing the same way for years. Unknown issues are the hardest to account for.
Why didn't I test more?
To be honest, if I waited till I thought everything was perfect no product would ever make it to market. Primarily because nothing is ever perfect. Secondarily because problems don't always arise when you are reviewing samples. It's production that screws things up, and the only way to find production problems is by running production and getting product in the hands of users. Unfortunately, we found a problem...but this is entirely normal.
We tested a lot (a lot) of things during sample production. Run time was perhaps the only thing that didn’t get thoroughly tested. Thanks Murphy. Regarding run time specifically, I think I already said it, and I'll say it again later, but I didn't have any reason to suspect a problem. We tested output, mechanical design, the UI, the new switch boot, coatings, pocket clip, etc. Most of these changes went through between 2-5 revisions in the last few months. Unfortunately run time slipped through the cracks.
Posted Run Time Numbers:
This is an excuse, but bear with me: I don’t put much stock on run time in general (this is a personal thing) because run times are (in practice) exceedingly vague and inaccurate to begin with. Also, running a light on a single setting for the life of the battery is a bench test, but not typically how lights are used in the field. I've been using the MKIII daily for quite a while, and I never observed anything out of the ordinary in normal use.
Based on my measured numbers for the Beta, the actual run time on medium (15 lumens for both lights) should be about 4 hours. Right now the MKIII is hitting about 2 hours as reported. I won't know the actual expected run time until we identify the problem, correct it, and test. It might still be 4 hours, it might not.
I made the assumption (based on Foursevens' previous stated 1 hour run time on high for the old Preon) that we'd get roughly the same run time at the same drive current. I plugged those numbers into a spread sheet, along with the mA drive level numbers the factory supplied, in order to calculate the run time on medium and moonlight. In retrospect it appears that the mA settings I received from the factory (used in my calculations) are incorrect when cross referenced with my numbers from the Beta...bearing in mind they are different drivers with different designs. The erroneous 10 hour number was the result of bad data. What I failed to recognize at the time, is that the calculated 10 hour run time was significantly higher than what the Beta tests at...and I failed to notice that.
At this time there does appear to be a legitimate efficiency issue with the driver and I'm working on it. I'll also let you know when I have more information.
What now?
Realistically I think 4 hours "should" be decent estimate for run time on Medium, so the MKIII is missing that by about 50%. Once the issue is resolved (assuming it can be) you can send in your light and we'll fix it when we have the parts. You could also just use the light and not worry about it too much. Finally you can return the light for a refund.
I have changed the figures on the product page to match the Beta, which I believe is a reasonable estimate. I have also marked the run time table as "Estimated (Under Review)," though this is largely irrelevant at this point.
A few things to consider:
Totally my bias here: I'm a pragmatist – focused on real world use and not testing in controlled environments. Even at two hours on medium, the light is still quite usable under normal conditions. People who are actually using the light appear to be quite happy with it. I’m taking the issue very seriously, but it’s also not catastrophic functional issue. At the same time, I get it if that just doesn’t work for you.
Every light is a tool, and like all tools, they are suitable for different jobs. My point being, yes the light is eating batteries too fast, but for me it’s just not a deal breaker for a AAA pocket light. One, the battery is rechargeable and I charge/change mine frequently. Two, if I need more than what the Preon can deliver (run time or otherwise), I choose a different light for that situation. I'm still carrying the Preon daily and knowing the battery life is not what it should be won't prevent me from using/enjoying the aspects that make it awesome, and intermittent use greatly extends the effective run time. If your opinion differs feel free to send the light back or wait for a repair solution.
Again, my apologies if anyone feels put out by this. I was never my intention to deceive or deliver a product that wasn't performing correctly. We don't live in a world where everything happens by the book or as we plan it. Almost everything else went right, but sometimes it feels like I only get credit for the things that go wrong. Dealing with that comes with the job but I do want people to know, running a product company is by far the hardest thing I've ever done. It's hard every day. It doesn't get easier. In fact, it only gets harder. At the end of the day I'm just a regular person trying to do the best I can with what I've got.
As always, thanks for your understanding and support.
Jason
Sorry for the radio silence, I was out all last week and I’ve been fighting a migraine the last three days. I take full responsibility and humbly apologize to anyone who is upset by the run time situation. Also, Got_Lumens is just helping me out on the forums because he's a good guy, so no one should be looking to him for any apologies or action on my behalf. I also want to thank you for reporting your feedback and helping us identify a totally unexpected problem. Yes the numbers originally posted to the site were incorrect (see below) and there does seem to be a legitimate efficiency issue with the driver (also see below).
Along with your forgiveness, I'm asking for a little bit of understanding as well. I totally get some of you guys are upset. What you might not realize is that it's also upsetting on this end. I would wager I'm actually more troubled by the current situation than you good folks. You might have bought one or more Preons that you aren't happy with, but I have 500. I lose sleep over it. I'm frustrated by the situation. It's incredibly demoralizing. It's one more thing on my plate that shouldn't really be there. I just want you to keep in mind there are two sides to this.
If you are familiar with Prometheus, you know I pride myself on being accurate and transparent. Due to my workload, run time testing was not a priority compared to the other priorities that exist in the business, particularly when I had no reason to suspect a significant problem. Mea Culpa.
Pre-Production Lights:
As stated on the product page, this was a "pre-production" run. I talked about the coatings (specifically) because that was the primary intention of the test run. This is the "unknown" that I "knew" I was testing for. The Preon has been around for years, and frankly I wasn't expecting any problems with the driver. We changed the UI, drive levels, and the PWM frequency. None of these changes created a big red run time flag. The factory's engineer didn't see any theoretical issues with the driver either. Unfortunately I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know if this is a component issue, software issue, or something else. I don't know if the problem is the result of one of those changes...or something else entirely. I'm currently working with the factory to sort this out.
I did intentionally call this a "pre-production" run because (by definition) that means that it's not full production, and I felt that was being sufficiently transparent. Again, I had no reason to suspect there would be any driver problems so there was no reason to call that out...but the entire purpose of pre-production is to detect any problem before full production. And there are always problems in manufacturing. Always. Even when you've been making the same thing the same way for years. Unknown issues are the hardest to account for.
Why didn't I test more?
To be honest, if I waited till I thought everything was perfect no product would ever make it to market. Primarily because nothing is ever perfect. Secondarily because problems don't always arise when you are reviewing samples. It's production that screws things up, and the only way to find production problems is by running production and getting product in the hands of users. Unfortunately, we found a problem...but this is entirely normal.
We tested a lot (a lot) of things during sample production. Run time was perhaps the only thing that didn’t get thoroughly tested. Thanks Murphy. Regarding run time specifically, I think I already said it, and I'll say it again later, but I didn't have any reason to suspect a problem. We tested output, mechanical design, the UI, the new switch boot, coatings, pocket clip, etc. Most of these changes went through between 2-5 revisions in the last few months. Unfortunately run time slipped through the cracks.
Posted Run Time Numbers:
This is an excuse, but bear with me: I don’t put much stock on run time in general (this is a personal thing) because run times are (in practice) exceedingly vague and inaccurate to begin with. Also, running a light on a single setting for the life of the battery is a bench test, but not typically how lights are used in the field. I've been using the MKIII daily for quite a while, and I never observed anything out of the ordinary in normal use.
Based on my measured numbers for the Beta, the actual run time on medium (15 lumens for both lights) should be about 4 hours. Right now the MKIII is hitting about 2 hours as reported. I won't know the actual expected run time until we identify the problem, correct it, and test. It might still be 4 hours, it might not.
I made the assumption (based on Foursevens' previous stated 1 hour run time on high for the old Preon) that we'd get roughly the same run time at the same drive current. I plugged those numbers into a spread sheet, along with the mA drive level numbers the factory supplied, in order to calculate the run time on medium and moonlight. In retrospect it appears that the mA settings I received from the factory (used in my calculations) are incorrect when cross referenced with my numbers from the Beta...bearing in mind they are different drivers with different designs. The erroneous 10 hour number was the result of bad data. What I failed to recognize at the time, is that the calculated 10 hour run time was significantly higher than what the Beta tests at...and I failed to notice that.
At this time there does appear to be a legitimate efficiency issue with the driver and I'm working on it. I'll also let you know when I have more information.
What now?
Realistically I think 4 hours "should" be decent estimate for run time on Medium, so the MKIII is missing that by about 50%. Once the issue is resolved (assuming it can be) you can send in your light and we'll fix it when we have the parts. You could also just use the light and not worry about it too much. Finally you can return the light for a refund.
I have changed the figures on the product page to match the Beta, which I believe is a reasonable estimate. I have also marked the run time table as "Estimated (Under Review)," though this is largely irrelevant at this point.
A few things to consider:
Totally my bias here: I'm a pragmatist – focused on real world use and not testing in controlled environments. Even at two hours on medium, the light is still quite usable under normal conditions. People who are actually using the light appear to be quite happy with it. I’m taking the issue very seriously, but it’s also not catastrophic functional issue. At the same time, I get it if that just doesn’t work for you.
Every light is a tool, and like all tools, they are suitable for different jobs. My point being, yes the light is eating batteries too fast, but for me it’s just not a deal breaker for a AAA pocket light. One, the battery is rechargeable and I charge/change mine frequently. Two, if I need more than what the Preon can deliver (run time or otherwise), I choose a different light for that situation. I'm still carrying the Preon daily and knowing the battery life is not what it should be won't prevent me from using/enjoying the aspects that make it awesome, and intermittent use greatly extends the effective run time. If your opinion differs feel free to send the light back or wait for a repair solution.
Again, my apologies if anyone feels put out by this. I was never my intention to deceive or deliver a product that wasn't performing correctly. We don't live in a world where everything happens by the book or as we plan it. Almost everything else went right, but sometimes it feels like I only get credit for the things that go wrong. Dealing with that comes with the job but I do want people to know, running a product company is by far the hardest thing I've ever done. It's hard every day. It doesn't get easier. In fact, it only gets harder. At the end of the day I'm just a regular person trying to do the best I can with what I've got.
As always, thanks for your understanding and support.
Jason
Got Lumens?
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yes Soon
the0dore3524
Flashlight Enthusiast
Props for the accountability, I’ve been watching this thread and was wondering what was going to go down.
SNES
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2017
- Messages
- 110
thanks for the response
So, as a “pre-production” purchaser, in a backhanded way, it’s really my fault for not expecting there to be a host of problems (referenced as the boldened any in the response above) with my light and then having to be okay with that?
Further, whenever the “engineering” problems with the factory in China get figured out, in order to get my light fixed to less than half-of-the-reason-I-purchased stats, I’m supposed to either A) send the light back in (assuming at my cost) to get some parts swapped out and deal with the ensuing wait for however long that may take, or, B) send my light in for a refund? What happened to the solution that I proposed? The logical solution to make up for the “oh-yeah-you-guys-are-my-guinea-pigs-in-every-way-but-don’t-really-know-it problem? I was crystal clear that I didn’t want a refund and listed the reasons why.
Hmmm.
Okay.
I stated earlier that the response about this light would dictate for me any further purshases of future FourSevens lights. I received my answer loud and clear.
I appreciate the time time it took to write out the reasons why we should understand how disappointed you are, how hard it is for someone to run a business, and how incredibly sucky it must be to work with an overseas manufacturer.
Further, whenever the “engineering” problems with the factory in China get figured out, in order to get my light fixed to less than half-of-the-reason-I-purchased stats, I’m supposed to either A) send the light back in (assuming at my cost) to get some parts swapped out and deal with the ensuing wait for however long that may take, or, B) send my light in for a refund? What happened to the solution that I proposed? The logical solution to make up for the “oh-yeah-you-guys-are-my-guinea-pigs-in-every-way-but-don’t-really-know-it problem? I was crystal clear that I didn’t want a refund and listed the reasons why.
Hmmm.
Okay.
I stated earlier that the response about this light would dictate for me any further purshases of future FourSevens lights. I received my answer loud and clear.
I appreciate the time time it took to write out the reasons why we should understand how disappointed you are, how hard it is for someone to run a business, and how incredibly sucky it must be to work with an overseas manufacturer.
Got Lumens?
Flashlight Enthusiast
You purchased a protoype(Pre-production) at a 20% discount, not a Production light.
Yes, You undertook a certain amount of risk and responsibility purchasing this prototype light(s).
You have not gotten anything but the truth, loud and clear to best of knowledge.
The problem can not be solved in a matter of a day, or a week, and the SOLUTIONS are being worked
on and will be posted once they can be determined.
I understand myself and everyone else's disappointment, but this problem does not warrant your interpretation that You are
painting of how Prometheus/FourSevens operates. You are free to disagree, but your responses are premature and lacking
patience of someone who purchased a prototype to test, checkout, and become involved with it's development and solutions
in a positive manner.
Here is a disclaimer from the website:
Picture Link
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InvisibleFrodo
Enlightened
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2014
- Messages
- 963
I literally just looked back through the thread and couldn’t find your suggestion.
I see you aren’t satisfied by the concept of your light being fixed once they find a solution AND you aren’t satisfied by the concept of getting your money back, so what is the proposed solution?
No offense, but I’m thinking maybe you didn’t read the “don’t be an @$$hole policy”?
SNES
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2017
- Messages
- 110
Begs the question why pre-production specs are listed at all then. Hard to believe there was no time for any person working there to simply turn a light on and let it run for two hours. There is too much competition at this price point to just shrug at the fact people got 20% of what was advertised. To then make it sound like it was our fault for believing what we read, is pretty rough.
Random Dan
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 1,371
I really don't understand some of the responses here. Yeah, Prometheus made a mistake. They admitted that and have offered two entirely reasonable solutions (repair or refund).
Let's just take a deep breath and be a little kind here.
Let's just take a deep breath and be a little kind here.
Newguy2012
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2012
- Messages
- 391
I think he suggested discounts on final production for pre-production purchasers.
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Thank you Jason for being transparent. Don’t feel bad about it, really no reason. Yes there are some disappointed customers. But the way you handle it is very professional and more than one can expect from a pre-production and discounted product. Full support from my side! (I purchased 8 of the lights – needed to compensate for the shipping costs overseas )
You solutions offered are more than fair. Send back and get refund or send back and get it fixed once a solution is found. Not sure if I will actually do it. Sitting in Europe, the costs for shipping two times when fixing it equal to purchasing a new light later on. And like you, in my real world use, I did not encounter the issues. I also charge regularly.
Earlier in the thread #197, someone proposed an option to simply ship the new driver so we can fix the lights ourselves. I will send an email to support and we can discuss that option.
Another option that was mentioned in the thread was to give people that got a pre-production light a discount on the full production light. I guess it is a little too much administration. But I am sure mailing support and proposing this will result in a good dialogue and happy customers at the end.
Overall, keep up the good work. I like your transparency, even when things go unexpected. Looking forward to get some more info once you found the error.
And to all disappointed customers. I can just say that I purchase things from Prometheus Lights since a couple of years and always got professional, flexible and generous feedback and help from support, sometimes even direct answers from the maker. All my crazy inquiries have been considered and ended up in happy builder, happy customer relation. The quality of all products received is exceeding my expectations by far. Be patient. At the end everything will be good. If it is not yet good, it is not yet the end
)You solutions offered are more than fair. Send back and get refund or send back and get it fixed once a solution is found. Not sure if I will actually do it. Sitting in Europe, the costs for shipping two times when fixing it equal to purchasing a new light later on. And like you, in my real world use, I did not encounter the issues. I also charge regularly.
Earlier in the thread #197, someone proposed an option to simply ship the new driver so we can fix the lights ourselves. I will send an email to support and we can discuss that option.
Another option that was mentioned in the thread was to give people that got a pre-production light a discount on the full production light. I guess it is a little too much administration. But I am sure mailing support and proposing this will result in a good dialogue and happy customers at the end.
Overall, keep up the good work. I like your transparency, even when things go unexpected. Looking forward to get some more info once you found the error.
And to all disappointed customers. I can just say that I purchase things from Prometheus Lights since a couple of years and always got professional, flexible and generous feedback and help from support, sometimes even direct answers from the maker. All my crazy inquiries have been considered and ended up in happy builder, happy customer relation. The quality of all products received is exceeding my expectations by far. Be patient. At the end everything will be good. If it is not yet good, it is not yet the end
Got Lumens?
Flashlight Enthusiast
My Moonlight test has been running over night. on hour 12 so far
26 hours so far
26 hours so far
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Isn’t that rich?!?!
Do do you mean from the start or now?
At the sake of repeating myself, I posted earlier that if I would have known that with my purchase, I was going to be a mere pawn to simply be verifying “engineer values,” I would have rather let someone else have that opportunity to have been the tester. Had what you wrote - and I put in bold above - been posted anywhere in the PL description of this light, I would have passed. What you wrote above and what was actually stated about the “pre-production run are, in fact, polar opposites. Let’s not now be dishonest about this.
As for the picture I’m painting? It was stated that samples were received from the factory. Clearly, despite stat claims to the contrary, these samples were never tested for things like runtimes or mode changes when the battery depletes. Those are two mayor things that I’m not glossing over or trying to “reimagine.”
Who’s really been painting an untrue picture about the light under the guise of “pre-production” and then backhandedly blaming the paying customers for not knowing all the “pre-production” involved? The stats of the light have changed on the website now twice in the last three days. I’m sorry...who’s painting what?
I received my answer about this light with Archer’s post and have determined how I will move forward with any future FourSevens lights. It is what it is.
*******
Frodo - I proposed a discount for the “pre-production” purchasers on the “full production” light. I even listed how it was logically a win/win for all involved.
When I emailed Prometheus about the chance for repair or refund, I was told to send it in for a refund. Didn't know having it repaired was an option.
EDIT: Nonetheless though, the day they got my light back, they sent me an email saying my order was refunded, shipping cost and all. All tnat was lost in this for me was the cost of sending it back.
Best of luck to Jason and Prometheus Lights!
EDIT: Nonetheless though, the day they got my light back, they sent me an email saying my order was refunded, shipping cost and all. All tnat was lost in this for me was the cost of sending it back.
Best of luck to Jason and Prometheus Lights!
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Post #206 by archer is such an amazing example of this community we hold so dear. Yes, I did not get one of the pre-production Preons (and therefore do not have the emotional investment and money investment so many of you have) but will some of you remember the kind of public response Zebralight and Nitecore gave when they messed up big-time? It was virtually nothing or a guarded, brief comment by a distributor.
Anger is certainly a normal response to erroneous information, and sub-par performance. When it is your business, your livelihood, well that is just about as serious as it gets (excluding personal tragedy)
The kind of flashlights people like so much from Prometheus are a product of the person(s) who made them, right? Their priorities, preferences and style all add up to something of a unique product. Here we have the person who stuck his neck out to keep the 4Sevens name alive, make a mistake that he admits. And he offers refund or repair. No doubt he will learn to make sure stated runtime performance meets the expectations of discriminating users, and that his trust of others can only go so far. Live and learn... Thanks for reading this and hopefully those still hurt about this can eventually forgive another's mistakes.
Anger is certainly a normal response to erroneous information, and sub-par performance. When it is your business, your livelihood, well that is just about as serious as it gets (excluding personal tragedy)
The kind of flashlights people like so much from Prometheus are a product of the person(s) who made them, right? Their priorities, preferences and style all add up to something of a unique product. Here we have the person who stuck his neck out to keep the 4Sevens name alive, make a mistake that he admits. And he offers refund or repair. No doubt he will learn to make sure stated runtime performance meets the expectations of discriminating users, and that his trust of others can only go so far. Live and learn... Thanks for reading this and hopefully those still hurt about this can eventually forgive another's mistakes.
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