Protected or Unprotected

hivoltage

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
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Location
Newark, Ohio
How do I know which one to order. I just bought a Dereelight that takes a 18650 battery. I went to order batteries and there are protected and unprotected. What kind of a situation would you want an unprotected rechargable? Thanks
 
Hi hivoltage.

When you buy cells for your battery that already have a protection circuit or when your light or application have a built in protection circuit.

Otherwise it is highly recommended to buy protected cells.

Anders
 
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unprotected cells are cheaper and can have a slightly higher capacity as the protection circuit needs some space
if you want to run down your cells without having to care about killing them through deep discharge, get some protected ones
 
protected, and don't cheap out on them either. Do yourself a favor and go with some quality brand protected cells from AW.

Eric
 
Protected!

I just received some 17670 unprotected cells that came as a package deal. I charged them up while playing with an M6 + 1185 running on three AW protected 17670. Once the charging was done, I thought I could continue by swapping the protected AW with the freshly charged unprotected. Sure enough, I got a very gentle but quick flash on the light when I was tightening up the tail cap. At first, I just thought perhaps the cells were not installed correctly or that the holder was not making good contacts. Upon close inspection of the WA1185 bulb, unfortunately, one of the filaments became detached from the pin inside the bulb. Re-measuring voltages with 3x17670 cells revealed:
Protected: 14.3+ volts
Unprotected: 15.4+ volts

Oh well, that was a quick WA1185 :poof: bulb that I just bought.

With Aloha,

Clarence
 
cl0123

um... major problem, HUGE massive alarm going off here.

14.3/3=4.766V per cell
15.4/3=5.133V per cell

So, either way, you should have a pretty decent fireworks show going on right now, with a side of toxic gases filling the house and.. and..and..

I'm going to go on the assumption that your multimeter is malfunctioning, or you accidentally posted the wrong voltages. It's practically impossible to get li-ion cells to charge up that high without exploding.

Provided the charger used to charge these cells is designed for li-ion and is set up properly, there is no reason that an unprotected cell would read hardly any difference in open circuit voltage after a charge compared to a protected cell.

[edit in]

the occurrence of insta-flashes on the 1185 on 3x17670 is very common, it has been heavily reported on protected cells charged to the proper 4.20V

Eric
 
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Good grief, Clarence!! What charger did you use to get those unprotected cells up to >5V?

Please be careful! Li-Ions over-charged that high are as unstable as nitro-glycerine...
 
:ohgeez: I am thankful that the batteries menehune's must be watching over my family last night as I simply left them in the charger while playing with the M6's. I should look for those probes with alligator clips to monitor the actual charging voltage from now on.

I have an old Chinese made hand-me-down multimeter from the 90's, of which I have no clue how to calibrate or if it's even calibrate-able. That could be error source #1. However, could it have been off by a whole volt? That's like a 20% error? I will try a couple more readings on some enelops and RCR123's that I have later, as references.

Charger is a several weeks young Pila IBC unit, the one that a lot of seasoned CPF'ers recommended as almost idiot-proof.

as nitro-glycerine...
Don't remember a whole lot from those circuits classes I had decades ago, but I do remember the this nitro-glycerine term very very well. Not sure if the FM holder puts all three cell in series, but if I made a mistake on inserting them incorrectly, could I have even gotten a reading out of the holder's terminals? I actually double-checked (maybe something I learned from circuits class) by reversing the DMM probes and did get a negative reading in the exact magnitude.

My play-time stopped last night after the bulb blew (btw, it's really a very gentle flash, nothing dramatic. No burn mark inside the bulb or on the filaments either). I have since been thinking about using the unprotected cells just for powering the M60 lamps in a C2 or 6P, or at least until I read the responses here. Supposedly, those blue unprotected cells are new and only had a couple of cycles. I want to use them because I did pay for them, but if they are wacky I don't even want to sell or give them away as they may be dangerous.

With all that said, I must say the 3x17670 + WA1185 combo definitely outshone the 6xR123 + MN 21. Unless, of course, I was playing with an almost self-exploding flashlight last night, perhaps.

With Aloha,

Clarence
 
If it's a new Pila IBC charger and an old DMM, I think you can probably breathe again! The 99.9% probability is that the chaqrger and cells are fine and you need a *new* DMM. On 3x fully charged 17670s, quite a few people have been getting instaflashed WA1185s.
 
Are you sure it's the new Pila IBC, and not something from a few years ago... IIRC The older pila charger used the protection circuit in the cell to terminate the charge. (much like the wolf-eyes chargers of today).
 
David,

Is there any way to get around the instaflash issues? Run the cells down or quit charging at a lower voltage? LM HO-M6 lamps? Oh geez, I don't even have an accurate charger to begin with. :shakehead Any recommendations on DMM?

I have not tried but please tell me the 2x18650 (also came with the package) holder + MN21 is not seeing the instaflash issues? The 3x17670 + WA1185 was really impressive though.

If it's a new Pila IBC charger and an old DMM, I think you can probably breathe again! The 99.9% probability is that the chaqrger and cells are fine and you need a *new* DMM. On 3x fully charged 17670s, quite a few people have been getting instaflashed WA1185s.


Eric,

Is there any way to tell the age or version by looking at the charger? It was bought through flashlightz.com several weeks ago, but of course I would not have known whether it's a new unit or something from the old stock. I'll take another look tonight. Thanks for the tips.

Are you sure it's the new Pila IBC, and not something from a few years ago... IIRC The older pila charger used the protection circuit in the cell to terminate the charge. (much like the wolf-eyes chargers of today).

Darkness will come in a few more hours. Hope I won't blow up the remaining bulbs (1 LM HO-M6, 2 WA1185, 2 WA1111, a few more MN20 and MN21's) tonight.

With Aloha,

Clarence
 
Your Pila IBC should be new, and your multi-meter is likely junk.

For the 2x18650 adapter, you can run the MN15, MN16, MN20, HO-M3T, or EO-M3T all on regular protected 18650 cells. The MN16 will be heavily overdriven and has an increased chance of premature failure in this setup.

The MN21 can also be run with a 2x18650 adapter, but will require high current safe chemistry cells, and is also overdriven pretty hard. Rest the cells or limit charge to ~4.10V for that setup. (I am currently using this setup, and a few others are as well, no bulb failures *yet* (knock on wood))
 
The WA 1185 / 3x Li-Ion set-up works well in 3 lights I use, but quite a few other members have reported instaflashes. One way to reduce the chance of this is to partly discharge the cells from fully-charged, to say 4.1V each, before using them with the 1185. You could do this by using a Lumens Factory HO-M6R, which is a pretty darn good bulb itself and is actually designed for 3x Li-Ions.

I had one MN21 flash after a total ~2 hrs use with 2x AW 'C' Li-Ions.
 
If you're getting instaflashes, you might want to look into NTCs. They're popular over in the incan forum.
 
May I ask what does the abbreviation NTC stand for? I searched and found this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170972
which looks like fuse.
If you're getting instaflashes, you might want to look into NTCs. They're popular over in the incan forum.

So far so good with the remaining WA1185s that I have. Compared side by side to an HO-M6R that is powered by the OEM battery holder with six AW RCR123, the 3x17670 + WA1185 is noticeably brighter. Sigh! I just don't know enough to understand this....

With Aloha,

Clarence
 
Finally get hold of a few AW protected 18650 cells fresh from Hong Kong. After charging them up and installing them into the mdocod M6 holder, I am getting a voltage reading of 11.25v to 11.27v. :sigh:

Off to search for a new good multimeter. Google returned a Fluke 114 model, but even that is about $100 from Sears. :sigh::sigh::sigh:

Note: Going to try the 2x18650 (protected) with an WA1111 bulb. Let's hope no more flash-out victim.

With Aloha,

Clarence
 
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