Quality and cost of LED replacements ofr regular lightbulbs

[Astroscanner]

Hi Y'all,

I have been wanting to eventually replace all our regular incadescent (and fluorescent) lightbulbs with LED "bulbs" but they have been very pricey even though the prices do seem to have started to drop some (and hopefully will more as production and popularity increases).

My question is that is there a big difference in the quality and durability of LED replacement bulbs based on manufacturer and price ?

The reason I ask is that I have seen sources online for some fairly cheap LED bulbs (compared to other prices) and was wondering if the cheaper bulbs could be depended on lasting as long as equivelant power ones sold for much more.

Are some sources for LED bulbs much cheaper because the manufacturer has started producing and selling them in greater volume, or would they more likely be cheaper because they are poorly made and would not last as long ?

Thanks in advance for any help !

Gary

 

[Lynx_Arc]

start reading in the fixed lighting forum section
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=89
For now LED screw in replacements are mainly only cost effective for spot lighting IMO. LED replacements are typically not much more efficient than decent CFLs. In other words I wouldn't recommend replacing most of your CFLs quite yet... maybe in 3-5 years or so perhaps 10 LEDs will be 2-3 times more efficient and powerful enough with proper diffusion to match the output of CFLs and save you money enough to warrant the much higher cost.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

double post hiccup..

 

[blasterman]

[

I have seen sources online for some fairly cheap LED bulbs (compared to other prices)

If I were you I'd avoid the generic Asian bulbs and stick to the higher profile retrofits that have been tested and talked about. Anybody can shove cheap LEDs in a generic enclosure and power them with a fifty cent driver.

For instance, the $20 HomeDepot EcoSmart that's been talked about here quite a bit in the fixed lighting forum and given positive reviews elsewhere.

Since you are paying a lot more than a CFL for less light you might as well stick to the products that will at least deliver what's claimed on the package. LED retrofits are slowly getting brighter, and cheaper, but the amount of garbage out there is just as high.

 

[Optical Inferno]

[
LED retrofits are slowly getting brighter, and cheaper, but the amount of garbage out there is just as high.

I totally agree. The other problem is these Asian manufactureres sometimes don't get their specs right (i.e. colour temperature). Just be thorough and do your research before buying. This was a good start :thumbsup:.

 

[Astroscanner]

start reading in the fixed lighting forum section
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=89
For now LED screw in replacements are mainly only cost effective for spot lighting IMO. LED replacements are typically not much more efficient than decent CFLs. In other words I wouldn't recommend replacing most of your CFLs quite yet... maybe in 3-5 years or so perhaps 10 LEDs will be 2-3 times more efficient and powerful enough with proper diffusion to match the output of CFLs and save you money enough to warrant the much higher cost.

Well hopefully since LED replacements for lightbulbs are now showing up in local retail stores perhaps the industry plans on stepping up research and production to make better ones and with lower costs

 

[Astroscanner]

[

If I were you I'd avoid the generic Asian bulbs and stick to the higher profile retrofits that have been tested and talked about. Anybody can shove cheap LEDs in a generic enclosure and power them with a fifty cent driver.

For instance, the $20 HomeDepot EcoSmart that's been talked about here quite a bit in the fixed lighting forum and given positive reviews elsewhere.

Since you are paying a lot more than a CFL for less light you might as well stick to the products that will at least deliver what's claimed on the package. LED retrofits are slowly getting brighter, and cheaper, but the amount of garbage out there is just as high.

Local stores carrying them is encouraging indeed, still pricey, hopefully the prices will start coming down soon, in the meantime we can always watch for sales

 

[Astroscanner]

I totally agree. The other problem is these Asian manufactureres sometimes don't get their specs right (i.e. colour temperature). Just be thorough and do your research before buying. This was a good start :thumbsup:.

Yep, before buying stuff I like to do some research and check out customer reviews from unbiased sources to read comments made by people who have actually tried a specific product.

(it seems that usually people will be more likely to write a review if they are really dissatsified with a purchase, so if a company makes a poorly made product it shouldn't be too difficult to find out before buying )

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Well hopefully since LED replacements for lightbulbs are now showing up in local retail stores perhaps the industry plans on stepping up research and production to make better ones and with lower costs

LEDs are where CFLs were now when they were in the stores at $15 each. The price/performance/savings ratio didn't quite justify the purchase. There is some really well made LED bulbs mostly spotlight types but these cost in excessof $50 from what I have seen which IMO is nothing but a specialty item right now. I will probably consider LED bulbs when they get nearer to $10 and are approaching twice as efficient as CFLs. If you do the math of cost vs running cost it takes awhile even at twice efficiency to pay for itself at the low energy levels CFLs are using. CFLs are 3-5 times more efficient than incans but LEDs are not even twice as efficient as CFLs so you can see it could take awhile to recoup the investment (if the electronics don't fry before that time).

 

[blasterman]

The EcoSmart doesn't cost $50, it costs around $20, and it's 400 lumen out-put has been verified.

Obviously CFLs have way higher lumen per dollar ratios, but the higher class LED retrofits have the advantages of durability and color consistency.

The main problem with this industry is 10x the effort and R&D goes into "how can we make the most money in a short term to ride the hype" rather than R&D to build a better product.

I don't recally CFLs getting this much scrutiny when they first hit the market, although they are now.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

The EcoSmart doesn't cost $50, it costs around $20, and it's 400 lumen out-put has been verified.

Obviously CFLs have way higher lumen per dollar ratios, but the higher class LED retrofits have the advantages of durability and color consistency.

The main problem with this industry is 10x the effort and R&D goes into "how can we make the most money in a short term to ride the hype" rather than R&D to build a better product.

I don't recally CFLs getting this much scrutiny when they first hit the market, although they are now.

400 lumens is not going to replace much in lighting as most people are used to 60+ watt incans or CFL equivelent light bulbs for lighting which is over twice that output so you would need 4 of them to match a 100 watt equivalent bulb which will cost you $80. CFLs were not getting a lot of scrutiny because when they first came out energy was cheaper and none of the states were mandating anything in savings. I bought CFLs when they were $15-$20 back them as an experiment and did not immediately start buying them to replace all my incans as the energy costs vs replacement costs were not near as attractive as when they hit the $6-$10 area. When you can get a 1500 lumen LED bulb that is 50+ lumens/watt and costs under $25 perhaps people will start concentrating on buying more but at $80 for 1500 lumens... forget it. you can buy 2-3 CFLs over the years and eat up $62 worth of extra electricity and still come out saving over 25 years at current efficiencies. I think LEDs will hit mainstream as the 120lumen/watt bulbs/fixtures start making the stores the 4:1 efficiency ratio over CFLs will be more cost effective and they will be on par with T8/T5 lighting also... the output must increase and cost decrease so 1500 lumens can be bought for $25 or less.

 

[blasterman]

400 lumens is not going to replace much in lighting as most people are used to 60+ watt incans or CFL equivelent

Actually, that's not correct. As I demonstrated in the fixed lighting forum all it takes is for a bare LED to hit 400 lumens before it's as bright as a 100watt incan. The incan is rated for 1600 lumens, but it's rated in a sphere, while the LED is directional and putting those lumens in an area less than 1/4 that of the light bulb (or typical CFL). So, anywhere you point the LED it's going to be as bright if not brighter than a 1600 lumen CFL or incan. It's just math.

This is why that 400 lumen number was such a priority for the LED bulbs to hit. At that point the only time the incan or CFL has more practical lumens is when you put a lamp shade over it, or use it as a porch light {shrug}. The fact is most people who have a house less than 20years old are have recessed lighting, and neither conventional light bulbs nor CFLs work really well for that application. PAR 20/30 halogens are the typical recourse, and they have significant longevity problems. It's funny, but the longest lasting Incans I've used were the '130volt' variety, and I got over 12k hours from them when used on a dimmer switch. If you can get 12k hours from a CFL or halogen be my guest

I think LEDs will hit mainstream as the 120lumen/watt bulbs/fixtures start making the stores

I see your point and am neutral on the LED bulb issue (I use what works best for the application) However, the cruel fact is that the global economy is becoming less and less reliant on what American consumers buy at Walmart and Home Depot on Saturday afternoons and consider convenience technology. LED retrofit lightbulbs are a bit of a gimmick, with a couple exceptions like the EcoSmart. Still, dedicated LED ceiling fixtures are getting really darn good and more than suitable for residential installation. The color is great for homes, longevity is fantastic, and the price point isn't a huge issue. Commercial though is whole other issue which typically gives T5/T8 a big advantage.

While CFLs are cheap and convenient source of a lot of light for consumers, the fact it that's it's a terrible design and most consumers would rather use something else because of color inconsistency and erratic reliability. When I show people a 400 or 800 lumen warm white Bridgelux compared to a CFL they immediately ask where they can get a bulb with that emitter in it. If they want to pay $20 for 400 lumens, for some applications it's not a bad deal.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Actually, that's not correct. As I demonstrated in the fixed lighting forum all it takes is for a bare LED to hit 400 lumens before it's as bright as a 100watt incan. The incan is rated for 1600 lumens, but it's rated in a sphere, while the LED is directional and putting those lumens in an area less than 1/4 that of the light bulb (or typical CFL). So, anywhere you point the LED it's going to be as bright if not brighter than a 1600 lumen CFL or incan. It's just math.

most CFLs are not used in fixtures that are "pointed" in a 1/4 wide swath, they are used in lamps and ceiling fixtures to light up a room. What you are talking about is a spotlight which I think is perfectly suited for LED right now as CFL trying to flood in a narrow beam is very inefficient.

I see your point and am neutral on the LED bulb issue (I use what works best for the application) However, the cruel fact is that the global economy is becoming less and less reliant on what American consumers buy at Walmart and Home Depot on Saturday afternoons and consider convenience technology. LED retrofit lightbulbs are a bit of a gimmick, with a couple exceptions like the EcoSmart. Still, dedicated LED ceiling fixtures are getting really darn good and more than suitable for residential installation. The color is great for homes, longevity is fantastic, and the price point isn't a huge issue. Commercial though is whole other issue which typically gives T5/T8 a big advantage.

I figure dedicated LED designed table lamps and light fixtures will precede LED screw in bulbs in sales due to the fact they can be easily designed for heatsinking and power supply issues. I look forward to taking the screw in bulb bases off lamps and attach LED bases and bypass the screw in bulb design limitations altogether.

While CFLs are cheap and convenient source of a lot of light for consumers, the fact it that's it's a terrible design and most consumers would rather use something else because of color inconsistency and erratic reliability. When I show people a 400 or 800 lumen warm white Bridgelux compared to a CFL they immediately ask where they can get a bulb with that emitter in it. If they want to pay $20 for 400 lumens, for some applications it's not a bad deal.

CFLs after the price got down to where it was less of an issue they didn't last 5-7 years like they should have they still save money over incans but with the exception of T5/8 tube fixtures they have not improved very much in the time they have been around. I welcome LED designers to step up and design better lights with more even lighting to replace all CFL based designs and when LEDs hit the 120 lumens/watt and surpass that and prices of components drop I see them slowly eating away the fluorescent market as price goes down by sheer huge volumes. I would like to see some sort of LED module replacement systems to swap out a dead emitter or change color tints or a higher efficiency one when available. That is one drawback of LEDs is most fixtures are not designed for consumers to replace the LEDs while you can go to any home improvement store and buy fluorescent tubes and replace them easily enough.

 

[LEDninja]

There has been a major change in the affordable reasonable brightness LED bulbs at the major hardware stores this year.
I bought Philips 7W 155 lumens last year. CAD$40.
I bought Philips 8W 410 lumens this year. CAD$25.
Philips 9W 470 lumens currently in Home Depot Canada's catalog. CAD$25.
All 3 are listed as 40W equivalent!!!
The online stores are still selling out of date bulbs from last year. For once it does not pay to shop online. You are most likely to get the dimmer bulbs.
And stay away from the Hong Kong/China online/ebay sites. NONE of their bulbs have the UL/CSA/ETA listing that they meet minimum North American safety standards. A badly built flashlight simply does not work. A badly designed or built fixed lighting bulb can burn down your house. And a lot of those bulbs are 5000°K cool white to 6500° cold white.

At the $10-25 range you get 40W (CFL 9-11W) equivalents.

-Finally! A decent LED bulb for $10 (review) 7.5 watts, 430 lumens.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?313596-Finally!-A-decent-LED-bulb-for-10-(review)
-EcoSmart A-19 40 watt LED (<$20 Home Depot) 8.6W 429 lumens.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?284926-EcoSmart-40-watt-LED
-Zetalux 2 standard (~$20 Earthled.com) 6W 300 lumens.
-Zetalux 2 pro (~$35 Earthled.com) 7W 450 lumens.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?307285-Zetalux-2-standard-and-pro

At the $40 range you get 60W (CFL 13-15W) equivalents.

-Philips 12w Teardown (~CAD$40 Home Depot Canada) 12W 800 lumens.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?308557-Philips-12w-Teardown
-New EcoSmart 60 watt equivelent A-19 LED bulbs
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...uivelent-A-19-LED-bulbs-75-watt-R30-eqivelent

100W equivalents are expected out later this year.

There are also bulbs by Osram Sylvania but in my neck of the woods are double the price (except at costco but I don't have a costco card).

 

[seanzh]

The EcoSmart doesn't cost $50, it costs around $20, and it's 400 lumen out-put has been verified.

Obviously CFLs have way higher lumen per dollar ratios, but the higher class LED retrofits have the advantages of durability and color consistency.

The main problem with this industry is 10x the effort and R&D goes into "how can we make the most money in a short term to ride the hype" rather than R&D to build a better product.

I don't recally CFLs getting this much scrutiny when they first hit the market, although they are now.

Does anyone know how durable it is for current LEDs on the market? For example the Ecosmart. Is it worth at current stage to replace CFL with LED or it's better to wait for better products?

 

[deadrx7conv]

Does anyone know how durable it is for current LEDs on the market? For example the Ecosmart. Is it worth at current stage to replace CFL with LED or it's better to wait for better products?

If the CFL is working, no point in replacing it. If you have to replace a couple bulbs that burnt out, then give LEDs a test run.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Does anyone know how durable it is for current LEDs on the market? For example the Ecosmart. Is it worth at current stage to replace CFL with LED or it's better to wait for better products?

When CFLs hit the market they were $25+ and were about 2-4 times as efficient as incans and did not start selling well at all till they started reaching $10 for 100watt equivelent bulbs. I expect LED could do the same to CFLs in time, that is become 2 times or more efficient and cost around $15 for a bulb before they take off in sales a lot depends on energy costs but currently energy costs compared to the output of current LED offerings will not save you enough money to compete with CFLs... period.
The only advantages of LEDs right now is special consideration of hard to replace bulbs and track lighting and outdoor lighting in weather extremes. Basically LED bulbs are mainly good for replacing incans not CFLs at this time.
I expect LED to get way beyond the current 30-90 lumens per watt but until they actually start marketing them with cost savings over CFLs instead of incans don't buy into the hype. Do the lumens/watt math on any bulb first.