Question about Malkoff Drop-In

brighterisbetter

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I've currently got my Malkoff M60 in a SF C2 host, and have been thinking of picking up a Leef 1x18650 C-C body from Lighthound. My question has to do with regulation. Gene's website says that input voltage is 3.8 - 9.0 volts, and below 3.8 it drops out of regulation and runs direct drive. Hot off the Pila IBC charger, my cells are metering at about 4.17 - 4.18 volts. Now, regardless of whether I'm running a protected or unprotected cell, from what I understand a Li-Ion is basically dead at around 3.2 volts, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So, once the 18650 hits 3.8 volts, then all the way down to 3.2 volts, what is happening with the Malkoff? Is it brighter being direct driven than when it's regulated? Is the opposite true? Obviously when direct driven, it's a little harder on the LED, as well as the cell. But what I'm trying to ask is this; am I better off just sticking with my stock C2 body and running two 123 primaries, or is a 1x18650 option just as reliable?
 
I've currently got my Malkoff M60 in a SF C2 host, and have been thinking of picking up a Leef 1x18650 C-C body from Lighthound. My question has to do with regulation. Gene's website says that input voltage is 3.8 - 9.0 volts, and below 3.8 it drops out of regulation and runs direct drive.

Keep in mind that the 3.8V bottom end for regulation is a ballpark figure and will ultimately be determined by the LED itself. There are variations in LEDs from one to the next, some have higher Vfs than others to get the same forward current. So it's theoretically possible to have an unusually high Vf LED in a module, that will drop out of regulation at say, 4V, instead of 3.8V, on the flip side, it's also possible to have one that runs at 3.6V for the given forward current and would stay in regulation much longer on a single li-ion cell.


Hot off the Pila IBC charger, my cells are metering at about 4.17 - 4.18 volts.

Voltage off the charger is semi-irrelevant as it doesn't paint any picture about how the cell will behave under the load of the module. Most 18650s will probably start off around 4V into the load of an M60, and diminish steadily to about 3.5V. In the case of a module dropping out of regulation as this discharge happens, the load becomes lower and lower on the cell as the voltage drops, (less voltage to the LED results in less current flowing across it). So you might get say, 30 minutes, or maybe a hour of regulated output where the cell is holding above the ~3.8V mark, (depending on the behavior of the cell and the luck of the LED lottery as is relates to what Vf you actually get).



Now, regardless of whether I'm running a protected or unprotected cell, from what I understand a Li-Ion is basically dead at around 3.2 volts, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So, once the 18650 hits 3.8 volts, then all the way down to 3.2 volts, what is happening with the Malkoff?

It will just get dimmer and dimmer as the cell voltage drops, less and less current across the LED will continue to improve the efficiency of the emitter at the same time, so as it dims down, the lumen/watt performance improves. Runtime is extended WAY out as the LED will be drawing very little current when the cell gets down below ~3.5V under the load. Ideally, you should try to recharge the cell at this point rather than continue draining it down.

Is it brighter being direct driven than when it's regulated? Is the opposite true? Obviously when direct driven, it's a little harder on the LED, as well as the cell. But what I'm trying to ask is this; am I better off just sticking with my stock C2 body and running two 123 primaries, or is a 1x18650 option just as reliable?

Actually, when the module falls out of regulation, it's easier on the LED as the current flowing is lower. The LED runs cooler and more efficiently this way. (but still dimmer overall compared to running at maximum regulated output).

The 18650 option is fine, but I suggest protected cells to prevent extreme over-discharge which could be possible if accidentally left on.

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On a separate note: I've studied the output chart comparisons of MANY LED lights and modules that are buck-only regulated, like the MalkOff and found that most of them seem to even have slightly higher initial brightness when driven with 2xCR123 or 2xRCR123, and will obviously have more steady regulation on that setup....

This can make it a tough call, because if you have a higher Vf than 3.8V, then the actual regulated runtime of the module on an 18650 may be non-existent, and the light may always be in a state of steadily diminishing output through the entire run. (probably around 4 hours).

Using a pair of 3.7V RCR123s will guarantee that the module is running at maximum output through the duration of the discharge, but the total runtime will be less (I'm guessing around an hour, give or take). IIRC I think I read in another thread recently that it was tested having a runtime of about 50 something minutes till the cells shut off. Ideally, one should charge the cells before getting to that point to reduce unnecessary wear on the cells.

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18650 Advantages:
Longer runtime when you need it (great for emergency situation where any amount of light is better than no light).
You'll see dimming before the cell is over-discharged, making it easier to know when it's time to "top up."

18650 Disadvantages:
Potentially short run in regulation, followed by dimming output (varies by module Vf, out of your control)

RCR123 Advantages:
Entire run will be regulated maximum output
(and in your case, no need to splurge on a 18650 body)

RCR123 Disadvantages:
Less total runtime compared to other options

CR123 primary advantages:
Most of the run is in regulation, followed by some semi-useful emergency "dim" *moon* lighting after the cells are nearly depleted.
Better regulated runtime than RCR123s, (probably around double).

CR123 Disadvantages:
Cost of operation for frequent use adds up to more than a rechargeable solution.
Having to carry spares when you think the cells are getting low- (with rechargeable, you can always know you have a fresh top up whenever you leave the house).

Eric
 
Wow Eric, an incredible post/response as usual. You're a true gift to these forums, and I salute you for your assistance to so many members. How are you liking your M6 so far?

I agree with you about protected cells, all I own are AW's, with two exceptions. I run 2x17500's unprotected in my M3 w/ EO-M3, but am very careful to not overextend the runtimes, just short bursts only with that one. The other exception being some Emoli 18650's I harvested from a Ridgid battery pack.

The intended use for this C2 is a bedside bumpinthenight light, which is where it's been for a while. I usually have 2xAWRCR123's, but the protection circuit has kicked in a few times, causing the light to go from moon-mode to OFF. That in my mind is the worst case scenario for such an important light. So I've been running primaries recently, and use the light much more often than originally intended for various around the house tasks. I hate dipping into my 123 primary stash all the time, so thought of trying 1xEmoli cell instead. The rapid discharge capabilities of this type of cell should allow me to run it down past 3.5volts comfortably, wouldn't it? LED bedside lights to me are ideal for their reliability reasons alone, so maybe I should just stick with primaries as well huh. I do regularly charge my Li-Ion's, but I just get the feeling that one day, when my life could count on it, I'm gonna reach for a light and effectively have virtually no runtime left on it, but with Emoli's and primaries, I think I should be ok.
 
The M6 is fun :) My Wife's hair dryer broke last night, so she used the M6 to dry her hair, I'd say it's got some decent oomf :)

A Emoli should work fine, it'll get noticeably dim before it's too severely discharged. And as I understand they are a bit more tolerant to over-discharge than cobalt chemistry cells. Won't have as much total runtime as say, a 2200mAH "regular" 18650... but will work...

I wonder if an Emoli might run the module in regulation longer than other 18650 options, since they have lower internal resistance, and the lack of the protection circuit reduces resistance further, it should hold a higher running voltage through the discharge. Might actually run the module pretty well. I haven't seen any discharge graphs of these types of cells at lower drain rates, so can't say for sure.

If you wanted, you could make it a dedicated 18650 light, and switch to an M30 module and use 18650s exclusively in it :).... but this would have the same problem as the 2xRCR123>M60 setup, that when the cell is exhausted, it would suddenly shut off, rather than just dim down. Not sure if the M30 has low voltage protection or if you would need to use protected cells with it to prevent accidental over-discharge. Would be worth knowing if you were to ever go this route.

Eric
 
I am going to do this "mod"

Surefire 9P with Leef body of 2x18650 and Malkoff M60.

Why do you want just 1x18650?
 
I would have to imagine that length is a consideration. A 2x18650 light is fairly long. whereas a 1x18650 light is *more* pocketable.
 
To the OP, optimum performance of the M60 requires an input of 6v-9v. It's not designed to operate well on lower voltage.

If you'd like to use an 18650 setup, why not get a Dereelight module like the 1S or the 3SD which are optimized for 2.8-4.2v? The output should be about the same.

2x17500 or 2x18500 are other options depending, of course, on the diameter and length of the light body used.
 
To the OP, optimum performance of the M60 requires an input of 6v-9v. It's not designed to operate well on lower voltage.

If you'd like to use an 18650 setup, why not get a Dereelight module like the 1S or the 3SD which are optimized for 2.8-4.2v? The output should be about the same.

2x17500 or 2x18500 are other options depending, of course, on the diameter and length of the light body used.

Yes, length is my main consideration, being that I don't want it top heavy on nightstand. Ideally I'd like a 1-cell turbo-head configuration seen here but sadly, this sold very quickly, and to build one requires the turbo-tower which tends to be dramatically more costly than a Malkoff. Going with a two cell tube I'd prefer the turbo-head for stability reasons, but I'd even settle with the stock C2 head if I could find a 2x18650 tube. Lighthound only has 2x18500, 1x18650, and 3x18650 tubes available in C-C configuration right now. 3x18650 is way too much for the Malkoff, I've already got a whole bunch of 18650's laying around so don't want to have to get addt'l 18500 cells, which leaves the 1x18650 tube.
 
I think 3x18650 is too much voltage for the Malkoff, at 11V, well above 9V that it can take.

When will LH get the 2x18650 tubes (C/C)?
 
Not sure, I'm also waiting for the next release of Leef bodies. Talked to Lighthound yesterday, was told that Leef tubes come in on an unpredictable basis, meaning that they never know what they're gonna receive, or when they'll receive it. I'd like 2x18650 C-M HA-NAT and 2x18650 C-C HA-NAT, maybe even a 1x18650 C-C HA-NAT too.
 
Ideally I'd like a 1-cell turbo-head configuration seen here but sadly, this sold very quickly, and to build one requires the turbo-tower which tends to be dramatically more costly than a Malkoff.

That SF turbo lego would be awesome no doubt. But I'm just more practical by nature and would get a Dereelight DBS. It would give you a lot of the same 18650 performance.

But I can see why you're attracted to that Surefire setup... very nice! :)
 
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