Question on Rechargeable Nihm or Newer Slow Discharge Nihm (Eneloop type)

[Mvpemmitt]

Hello all

Im not even sure if this is the right forum but here goes.

If anyone knows a better place to look, let me know and I will try there!

I searched here and found good info on the Eneloop type and good info on standard nihms as well.:thumbsup:

I am tired of buying AAs for all of my remotes/clocks/personal care devices/toys/hand held game systems etc. around the house.:thumbsdow

I had planned on buying 20 to 30 nihms and just keep some charged and just swap as needed. I also read that you shouldnt trickle charge the nihms but if I dont, then they probably wont be charged when I need them!

THEN I stumbled across the newer eneloop slow discharge ones and now I dont know which way I should go? :thinking: Especially when the price is about 1.5X the price of the batteries. Less than $1 to about $2.50. Should I use both types, just know which ones I should use for what then buy accordingly? Obviously the less $$ invested the better, but I also want to do what makes sense!

I think I understand the differences, but am still not sure. The remotes/clocks/flashlights/small portable radios (NOT boom box type! lol)/trimmers/shavers dont use a lot of power so I guess those are "low draw?" or just not used much and best for the eneloop type?

My car has an alarm that pages me up to a mile away, gives zone reports, rolls up windows, starts car, etc. Lots of little tricks that like to eat batteries! That battery I replace at least every 2 weeks or so. Sometimes shorter if I use the remote start a lot or am rolling the windows up and down a lot with the remote. That application would be a "High Draw" and best for a standard higher capacity nihm? Right?? Also, would those be best for my remote control cars and a palm size 3 inch color TV? How about flashlights? Those are different if theres one I use a lot right, maybe the main flashlight use regular, and seldom/once in a while use slow discharge?

Has anyone had any experience with the "Juice" brand rechargeable nihms? I can get like 20 of them for about $18 shipped or 48 for $36 shipped(2000mah)

I also found eneloops for about $9.50 4pk. shipped. Is that good? Or are there cheaper "off brand" of the slow discharge batteries?

I appreciate any help you can offer, even if its a link or direction to another site that would have the info I seek! :twothumbs

I know its a bit long in the tooth, but I was trying to get it all in there! lol

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[Mr Happy]

Do you want to cut costs and find yourself getting frustrated with batteries that stop performing well after a bit of use, or are dead just at the worst possible time when you want to use them, or force you to keep a regular diary to swap them out and recharge them? Batteries that need replacing every year because they are worn out?

Or would you rather pay a little more and get batteries that you can trust, that will still be charged six months or a year after you last touched them, that will still be working just as well after three years of use as when you first bought them?

Short answer: get Eneloops. They just work. And work. And work...in everything.

 

[Niconical]

Something important to point out is this.

It's easy to think that you should decide to get the more expensive eneloops based on how much you'll use them. Frequent use, get those eneloops, low use for not important things, maybe not. After all, no point getting the better batteries for something that hardly gets used, right?


Wrong . If you have lots of devices, shaver, clock, flashlight that see little use, that sort of thing, then they are the best candidates for eneloops. A regular nimh would be useless in such devices, unless you want to keep charging them every month.

Plus of course, if you do also have something at the other end of the spectrum, a flashlight you use hard every day, a battery powered fan, lots of high powered items, what's the best batteries for that? Eneloops. EDIT: After reading it back, I see I should add in here that the reason for this is that as well as being low self discharge, eneloops are also considered to be high quality batteries in general, robust, tough, good for hard use every day as well as storing in a drawer for months.

To put it frankly, there are times when eneloops are not the answer. Intensive radio control use etc. However, as a general rule, if you have to ask the question "Eneloops or not?", then chances are the answer will always be eneloops. There are people as I mentioned who wouldn't need eneloops as they have specific needs, but they are also the people who wouldn't need to ask. I don't mean that in any way at all implying "why do you even ask?" or anything like that, I myself am no battery expert. What I mean is that for 9/10 people asking "eneloops or others?", the mere fact that they had to ask puts them in the "you can't go wrong with eneloops" catagory.

For the record, by "eneloops" I mean eneloops and/or any LSD (low self discharge) battery.
I don't have them myself, but other members speak highly of Rayovac Hybrid LSD batteries.

Finally, it's good that you are putting thought into your batteries, but dont forget to put equal thought into your charger. It seems from your needs that the La Crosse BC700 would serve you very well.

 

[Mvpemmitt]

Hey.... didnt expect replies this late! but I like it!

Mr Happy.

So are you saying that the higher capacity standard nihm batteries are unreliable and not as durable, so you incur additional cost later having to replace them, making the long run costs the same or greater than the eneloops? Not to mention the hassle of not having them when you need them etc. Is that the rule or the exception?

That makes sense. Because as far as the standard nihm I would be getting the mid to cheaper line to save initial investment, otherwise I would just buy eneloops right?

Niconical

I understand your points and agree, but just trying to see if the standard ones should be considered on any fronts or if it is just a "Hands down" "NO Brainer" EVERYTIME to get LSDs.

You mention LSDs. Are eneloops FAR AND AWAY the BEST lsds? Or can I find others that I may be able to save costs on? I just bought a combo with 6 AAs and 2 AAAs with a charger that were the Hybrid Rayovacs for $17 total. Seemed like a pretty good price.

Do you know anything about these Tenergy LSDs? about $2 each instead of $2.50 for eneloops

Key Specifications * High quality Ultra High Capacity AA Size rechargeable Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery * Exact replacement for standard AA size battery in all the devices * Provides ultra long use time per charge with this ultra high 2300 mAh capacity * Advanced NiMH technology means twice as long use life per charge than the ordinary rechargeables * combines all the features of the alkaline battery (Ready to Use) with the benefits of rechargeable battery * Very slow self discharge maintains 85% residual capacity after 1 year of storage and 70% residual capacity after 2 years of storage * Designed for enhanced performance for high drain applications such as digital cameras, CD players, portable audio devices, hand held games, 2way radios, PDAs, and other portable high drain digital electronics * Can be recharged for up to 1000 times, providing big saving by replacing hundreds of throw away AA batteries. * Convenient operation without memory effect. Can be charged anytime. * Can be rapidly charged with any quick charger, smart chargers, plug in charger or universal chargers * Dimension: 18mm(H)x50mm(D) * Weight per cell 0.06 lbs * Battery tested based on International Electronic Commission (IEC) standard to ensure capacity, quality and life time


Anyway,

In a perfect world where cost isnt an issue, I would use the eneloops for everything. However, cost is a factor, so thats why I wanted to see if I could use or benefit from the cheaper, higher capacity standard nihm batteries in any instance that makes sense.

Ok, so I think I had it mostly right. Clocks, shavers,remote controls, fans, wireless keyboard??... Wireless mouse??? all are best for LSDs?

How about the car alarm remote that eats batteries pretty consistently? I also forgot to mention that I have been unable to turn off the alarm and get into the car because of battery failure on numerous occassions!!

Maybe I should ask then..... When would be a good time to use standard nihm batteries? you mentioned the R/C cars..... heavy use flashlights.... What about the small handheld color tvs?? they will go through batteries pretty quick too. I mean I usually know when I am going to need the TV so It wouldnt be to much trouble to just throw on a set of standard ones the night before so I have them. Wont they last longer than the eneloops? As long as they are freshly charged?

Thanks again guys! :thumbsup:

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I would say sort your needs into two categories... cost and usage.
If cost is not as important then eneloops for most things but if cost is important some things may be *ok* with cheaper nimh or even alkalines.
non LSD nimh are for things needing maximum runtime that can be recharged before using not needing instant use. I have found that batteries 2300ma or less have less issues with super fast discharge and are useful within a week of charging while those 2400mah vary with many having super fast discharge needing to be charged before using and used within a day or two as their capacity vanishes fast within a few days.

nimh in items that eat alkalines (or lithiums in some cases) fast and/or use batteries fast.
no need to use anything other than alkalines in items you replace the batteries every year or two or longer to start with until you are overflowing with nimh these items like tv remotes and clocks don't save you money if the nimh battery could be used in something else charged a dozen times in a year.
Eneloops (or duraloops) are the best but there are other brands of LSD that are cheaper and work well too like the kodak precharged. weigh price/usage if your budget needs a lot of batteries it may be an advantage if you cannot find eneloops cheap to get cheaper LSD cells for some items and use the eneloops for others. A lot depends on how many cells you need.

put LSD batteries in stuff you don't want to mess with recharging to use if left sitting, in items that you use constantly and over a month or so drain batteries. A neat thing to do if you are short on batteries is charge up cheap NIMH batteries and take an extra set of eneloops with you.... use the cheap nimh up then switch to the eneloops because they will still have a better charge as time goes on. I have a headlamp I use a battery up sometimes 3 times a night and I use 2500mah energizers because they are only good for almost instant use after charging but have more capacity than an eneloop so I get more runtime.

Your car remote is a great thing to use eneloops in as it takes weeks to drain. A suggestion.. get a flashlight that has as many of the same type of batteries your car alarm has and carry it on you so when the alarm batteries die you can swap them out of the light.

 

[geek4christ]

Maybe I should ask then..... When would be a good time to use standard nihm batteries? you mentioned the R/C cars..... heavy use flashlights.... What about the small handheld color tvs?? they will go through batteries pretty quick too. I mean I usually know when I am going to need the TV so It wouldnt be to much trouble to just throw on a set of standard ones the night before so I have them. Wont they last longer than the eneloops? As long as they are freshly charged?

Mdocod provided this rundown a couple of days ago, that you might find relevant:

Unless you absolutely think you NEED that extra 25% runtime available right after charging up the cells, then you'll still be better off with eneloops in the long run.

1. If you plan on having "spares" around you will always know they have plenty of useful juice left in them.
2. LSD cells, especially eneloops, hold a higher voltage under a load than most other consumer NIMH cells. The result is that the lower mAH rating does not have as significant a meaning as it would appear when compared with regular consumer cells when used in a "regulated" device like a flashlight. True capacity is measured in watt-hours, and eneloops are not as far behind "high" capacity cells as their label capacity would lead you to believe.
3. LSD cells are more robust than ordinary NIMH cells. They tend to have a much longer useful life, in terms of either storage OR cycle performance. If you were to take a set of Sanyo 2700s, and a set of eneloops, and cycle them each several hundred times, After the first hundred cycles or so, the eneloops would probably be performing BETTER than the 2700s. The number one reason to go rechargeable is to save money, and the best way to take that concept a step further is to invest in cells that will survive the longest.

Of particular interest is point 2. The eneloops hold a higher voltage throughout their discharge than regular NiMH. Hence it follows that for a given power in watts, the eneloops higher voltage will result in less amp draw. So it's almost a wash between them and the high capacity regular NiMH in terms of watt-hours.

 

[WDG]

Short answer: Stick to the Eneloops and get on with life.

Longer: I bought 2700's before I understood the Eneloop LSD's: :sigh:
• The 2700's typically actually rated around 2300mAh after a very short time, and the few that still work "normally" are now down to around 2100mAh. The Eneloops still perform essentially as new, within about 50-100mAh ABOVE their stated rating.
• Most of my 2700's now pretty much collapse under moderate load, while the Eneloops have been proven to be VERY capable under high loads.
• The 2700's require charging before use, while the charged Eneloops will sit on the shelf or in the device ready to use when needed.

I have no first-hand experience with other brands of LSD's, but the Eneloops seem to be the "no muss, no fuss" solution to MOST people's needs. While I agree they are not the answer for absolutely every application... Today, I would ONLY buy 2700's if I had a SPECIFIC need for high capacity, where the cells would be in constant daily, or almost daily, HARD use. For my purposes, they were a complete waste of money, as compared to the Eneloops.

Sorry if I sound like an ad for Eneloops, but I continue to be VERY impressed with theses cells. Read everything you can find on them on this board and I think you will agree.

Or... Just buy Eneloops and be happy! :thumbsup:

 

[Mvpemmitt]

Finally, it's good that you are putting thought into your batteries, but dont forget to put equal thought into your charger. It seems from your needs that the La Crosse BC700 would serve you very well.

Hey I overlooked this the first read.

So then, should I assume that all chargers are NOT created equal? I know, im a Noob! lol I have 2 small wall chargers that charge 4 AAs at at time in pairs. One is an Energizer, the other the RayOvac Hybrid charger. I didnt plan on spending a lot of $$$ on a charger as well as batteries. WIll I ruin or cause harm to eneloops or LSDs if I use a regular nihm charger? To help offset the initial upfront cost of LSD batteries could I invest in an apparent better charger later or is it essential to begin their life with a type of charger you referred to?

Where does everyone buy their Eneloops from and what is the AVERAGE and BEST price found on them? (Best I have found is about $2.35 ea)

DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT OR CAN RECCOMEND AA TENERGY LSDs? I have found them as the lowest cost LSD @ $2 a cell AAs

Or feel free to share LSD costs/best prices on any other brands as well!

Oh, and one last thing on looking at other LSD brands, is there any brand/ manufacturer that is SHOULD AVOID?

THanks again guys for all your help!

 

[Marduke]

Eneloops are going to be the best buy. They will last the longest and perform the best.

Depending on where you live, you might be able to get a decent 4-channel smart charger for <$10, but certainly for <$25 with a couple cells.

 

[cave dave]

Eneloops are hands down the best rechargeable AA and AAA on the planet.

Are there others out there? Sure, but how often do you get to buy the best of something for only a few dollars more?

Most of us on the forum can't recommend anything else because we have learned that going with high quality item the first time around will save money in the long run.

I recommend you get them from Thomas Distributing, and buy a good multi channel smart charger while you are there. ~ $35+

PS I still use Alkaline in remotes and clocks and stuff.

 

[WDG]

I got my Eneloops at Best Buy last year, but haven't had any luck finding them there or anywhere else locally, lately. (I'm open to suggestions if anyone knows chain stores that currently carry them.)

Thomas Distributing has them, and I highly recommend them for cells and chargers. I had an issue with one order and they resolved it immediately. Great customer service!

I believe Amazon also has Eneloops, and I'm sure a Google search will turn up others.

 

[tslrc]

My local HH Greggs have them for $7.99 per 4 pack. Circuit City may still have them, but for a lot more. Sometimes HH Gregg has them behind the counter so you may have to look there or ask about them.

 

[Niconical]

So then, should I assume that all chargers are NOT created equal? I know, im a Noob! lol I have 2 small wall chargers that charge 4 AAs at at time in pairs. One is an Energizer, the other the RayOvac Hybrid charger. I didnt plan on spending a lot of $$$ on a charger as well as batteries. WIll I ruin or cause harm to eneloops or LSDs if I use a regular nihm charger? To help offset the initial upfront cost of LSD batteries could I invest in an apparent better charger later or is it essential to begin their life with a type of charger you referred to?

Yes indeed, all chargers are very definately not created equal. The one I suggested, la Crosse BC700, will charge each of its four slots individually, so for example you could insert at the same time, 1 AA nearly full, 1 AA nearly empty, 1 AAA nearly full, 1 AAA nearly empty. Each slot will say the word "full" when it is ready, and it can then be removed.

You will also have the option of "breaking in" the batteries. This is not essential, after all, most people not in-the-know wouldn't do such a thing, but seeing as you are in-the-know (well, you are now ), you can use the BC700 to take advantage of this. What it means is that the charger will fully charge the cell, then fully discharge it, then fully charge it. You should then leave it an hour or 2, then do that process again, and it will help your brand new eneloops (or any other nimh) to reach peak efficiency. Like giving them some fitness training before sending them out into the field.

There are plenty of online sellers offering the BC700 at surprisingly good prices, with the standard price on amazon.com being $30. I'll leave it to any US residents to give other examples of where, as they can also offer advice on possible retail options.

Finally, about the batteries, I don't mean to imply in any way at all that you shouldn't ask, quite the opposite, ask anything you want at any time. In this case though, however you word it and whatever possible combinations of needs you offer, you're going to keep getting the same answer - eneloops. Bear in mind that this is not just people reading specs and spouting them, many members here have learned the hard (and expensive) way that the answer is eneloops. Make their loss be your gain, and go for it. You mentioned $9.50 for a pack of 4 shipped, that seems good to me. Compare the cost of eneloops from one seller to another, of course, but don't compare the cost of eneloops to other non-LSD batteries. Worst case, you don't have enough for all the batteries you need, get a few less but of eneloops, and save up for more....., eneloops.

 

[Mvpemmitt]

Yes indeed, all chargers are very definately not created equal. The one I suggested, la Crosse BC700, will charge each of its four slots individually, so for example you could insert at the same time, 1 AA nearly full, 1 AA nearly empty, 1 AAA nearly full, 1 AAA nearly empty. Each slot will say the word "full" when it is ready, and it can then be removed.

You will also have the option of "breaking in" the batteries. This is not essential, after all, most people not in-the-know wouldn't do such a thing, but seeing as you are in-the-know (well, you are now ), you can use the BC700 to take advantage of this. What it means is that the charger will fully charge the cell, then fully discharge it, then fully charge it. You should then leave it an hour or 2, then do that process again, and it will help your brand new eneloops (or any other nimh) to reach peak efficiency. Like giving them some fitness training before sending them out into the field.

There are plenty of online sellers offering the BC700 at surprisingly good prices, with the standard price on amazon.com being $30. I'll leave it to any US residents to give other examples of where, as they can also offer advice on possible retail options.

Finally, about the batteries, I don't mean to imply in any way at all that you shouldn't ask, quite the opposite, ask anything you want at any time. In this case though, however you word it and whatever possible combinations of needs you offer, you're going to keep getting the same answer - eneloops. Bear in mind that this is not just people reading specs and spouting them, many members here have learned the hard (and expensive) way that the answer is eneloops. Make their loss be your gain, and go for it. You mentioned $9.50 for a pack of 4 shipped, that seems good to me. Compare the cost of eneloops from one seller to another, of course, but don't compare the cost of eneloops to other non-LSD batteries. Worst case, you don't have enough for all the batteries you need, get a few less but of eneloops, and save up for more....., eneloops.

Well, then I think Ill go out on a limb here and buy some eneloops..... :laughing: Wish me luck!.....

I actually found a seller with the pack of 8 AAs 2 AAAs a charger, 4 C & 4 D adapters shipped for about $30 So figure $2.50 ea X 10= $25. Plus $5 for the charger and 8 adapters I guess thats fair. That brings me to another question......?

Is that eneloop charger any good? Does it offer a safe way to charge them without chance of overcharging/damaging them? I mean is it just that you have to charge them in pairs and that it cant discharge them, that makes the wart chargers "bad" or is it just that the other smart chargers do other things that are good for the batteries?

The charger that you spoke of, the "smart charger", if I look for one locally, what specs/features/etc do I need to look for so I can tell its a decent one? Is it simply if it can charge 1 cell individually, instead of the usual pairs? Or that it can discharge batteries as well? If I know what I need to look for then I can make somewhat of an informed decision on buying a charger. I noticed the digital readout, is this necessary or just more accurate? Others just have leds right?

Thanks again!

 

[DualMonitors]

that's good information, thx!

may i ask what the differences between the La Crosse BC 700 and the BC 900? the 700 is no longer on La Crosse's own site, and they two of them look rather similar. confusing...

then, there's the Maha MH-C9000, which appears to be rather similar to the La Crosse BC-900, though the Maha 9000 appears to have an easier to use and pre-programmed "battery forming"/"break in" mode, which is what you described in your post above.

Furthermore, the Maha MH-C401FS appears to have all the various cycles needed, and is sort of "pre programmed", so less fuss, yet, for those who demand FULL control, i.e. exactly what mA rate etc to charge in which battery slot, then the MH-C9000 is the only way to go since it appears to provide an endless range of options - maybe too many options for many, which is why the pre-programmed modes of the MH-C401 seems to be more than sufficient for many.

i'm quite a newbie at this so i'm investigating and learning as i go along with you all...hope i got my facts right.

 

[WDG]

I primarily use the Maha MH-C9000s, and am very satisfied with these. The default charge rate is 1000mA, which is great for the Eneloops, for those times you just want to stick them in and not mess with any settings. I typically charge at 1500mA for AA cells, myself, or 700mA for AAA cells.

I also use the four-channel Eneloop charger as a travel charger, as it's a bit slower. It has a cover and built-in fold-out plug (rather than a separate cord or wart) so I consider it ideal for travel, and it's a good charger. This is the Eneloop charger I have: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IV0REA/?tag=cpf0b6-20

I have no experience with the LaCrosse chargers, but lots of folks here swear by them. As you read about the LaCrosse and the Maha chargers, understand that both of them had some firmware issues still to be worked out when they were first released, so most all the problems you may read about have been resolved in current versions.

 

[Niconical]

that's good information, thx!

may i ask what the differences between the La Crosse BC 700 and the BC 900? the 700 is no longer on La Crosse's own site, and they two of them look rather similar. confusing...

then, there's the Maha MH-C9000, which appears to be rather similar to the La Crosse BC-900, though the Maha 9000 appears to have an easier to use and pre-programmed "battery forming"/"break in" mode, which is what you described in your post above.

The BC900 came first. However, there were some reports of users having overheated batteries when used at the highest charge speed, hence the newer BC700. Same charger, just with lower highest setting.

I have both the Maha C9000 and the La Crosse BC700. Yes of course, the Maha offers many more options, and many more presets. However, it's best not to compare the BC700 to the Maha and find it lacking, better to compare the BC700 to a regular charger and find it stunning.

The BC700 is certainly no harder to use the the maha, in fact it's easier, less setting, less options, less to do. Still though many more options than a dumb charger. You can select from 3 different charge/discharge speeds, and the break-in I mentioned above is just a few button clicks, no more complicated than the Maha.

Of course the maha is a far better charger than the BC700, but it also costs a lot more. The BC700 is an excellent charger for the price, and will work well for any mixture of nimh batteries.

 

[mdocod]

Hi Mvpemmitt,

I noticed you were asking about the $2 Tenergy as compared to the $2.50 eneloops.

In order for the eneloops to be worth the extra price, they will need to survive 25% more cycles, or provide at least a 25% better user experience..

I have no doubt that they will. I own a number of tenergy branded NIMH cells and most have been tossed in the recycle-me-some-day-bin over the last year or so. Every eneloop I own is still performing like the day I bought it.

 

[cave dave]

...Bear in mind that this is not just people reading specs and spouting them, many members here have learned the hard (and expensive) way that the answer is eneloops. ...

Here is a pic of all the trial and error that I ended up giving away free, before I found eneloops. Not shown are another dozen or two I gave to coworkers and a dozen or two that I threw away because they went completely bad. I have been using eneloop with great success for two years. My first set are in Japanese because I got them in a CPF group buy before they were available in the states. Still going strong.

Learn from CPF not trial and error like Cave Dave! :shakehead

Money Wasted: :thumbsdow

 

[Mvpemmitt]

Hi Mvpemmitt,

I noticed you were asking about the $2 Tenergy as compared to the $2.50 eneloops.

In order for the eneloops to be worth the extra price, they will need to survive 25% more cycles, or provide at least a 25% better user experience..

I have no doubt that they will. I own a number of tenergy branded NIMH cells and most have been tossed in the recycle-me-some-day-bin over the last year or so. Every eneloop I own is still performing like the day I bought it.

Thank you for the Tenergy info. I assume you are referring to the LSD ones right? Not the standard nihms? Well, after EVERYONE basically telling me to buy Eneloops, I just did it. Now I just have to find a good charger.

What do you guys think about this one?

http://www.notebookforums.com/showthread.php?p=2935153

It has the recharge function as well as the microchip and can charge 1 to 4 cells and is a lot smaller than the other ones mentioned. Is it comparable at all to the Maha or Lacross ones? Feature wise? From my uneducated view it appears to be the same without the digital readout and a smaller condensed easier to store/manage package. THOUGHTS????.....

Now if we could just get some sort of Group buy for Eneloops I think everyone would win! lol...... :grouphug: