Question on signs of low battery (CR123)

[fataugie]

HI All,

I'm relatively new to the 123 battery world...so with that said, the Background:

Brand new early Christmas present: Fenix TA30

Purchased at exorbitant prices (3) Li-Ion Energizer 123 batteries. Two marked 8/09 and one marked 5/09.

Installed on Tuesday evening, 12/8

Total use on batteries: Maybe 1/2 hr total burn time with a mix between high, medium and low.

Symptoms:
Everything worked as expected until Thursday evening. The light was in my truck in cold weather for a few hours. I used it on medium and high for about 30 seconds to a minute, shut it off with the clicky. Went to click it back on and there was a flash, then nothing. I can not get anything other than a flash on the High and Medium settings, followed by going dark. On low, I get constant, steady light. The strobe also works. I cannot, however, switch between low to any other setting when the button is on nor can I start at medium or high and move to low and have any light. I have to start on low, click off, then on and then I get light.

There doesn't seem to be a problem with the revolving bezel, although there is some play at the end of travel on both sides. From some other posts regarding the TA30 on CPF, that may be normal.


Questions:
Is it possible the batteries are maybe going bad? Is this a normal sign that maybe one of the cells went bad?
Is there a problem with the light?

I don't want to return the light for warranty if it's just a battery issue, but I also don't want to drop the big buck for new batteries if that isn't the problem either. If this needs to go back, I'm going to consider asking for a refund and go with something that takes standard batteries (AA). If it's a battery issue for sure, I'm going to go for rechargeables (AW from 4Sevens).

Any help would be appreciated.

Tony

 

[45/70]

Purchased at exorbitant prices (3) Li-Ion Energizer 123 batteries. Two marked 8/09 and one marked 5/09.

First of all, the batteries you bought are not lithium ion cells. They are lithium primary cells, ie. non-rechargeable. The two have very different chemistry, voltage, and characteristics.


As far as your light having an unexpectedly short runtime, I would look into the possibility of dirty contacts, or a bad connection somewhere in the battery chain. Clean the battery contacts in the head and tailcap of the light and rub both ends of each cell on a cloth. Hopefully that is your problem and you'll be good to go.

And last, but certainly not least, welcome to CPF fataugie! :thumbsup:

Dave

 

[Bones]

Since you've already taken the plunge into the world of high-performance flashlights, if 45/70's suggestions don't resolve the problem, you really should get the one tool that's considered indispensable by all flashaholics, a digital multimeter.

If you find it too expensive locally, Harbor Freight carries a variety at reasonable prices that are quite adequate:

http://www.harborfreight.com ... itemnumber=92020

With a DMM, and HKJ's simple guide to measurements on a flashlight, there's a very good chance you'll be able to correctly diagnose your problem and, if not, provide enough additional information to take most of the guesswork out of analyzing it:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com ... post3015928

For future reference, HKJ's guide to the DMM is indexed in the sticky post at the top of this sub-forum.

 

[ltiu]

Purchased at exorbitant prices (3) Li-Ion Energizer 123 batteries. Two marked 8/09 and one marked 5/09.

" ... Marked 8/09 and 5/09 ... "? You mean these have different expiry dates and these expired a few months ago?


NEVER EVER mix batteries with different expiry dates. You'll go KABOOM !!! Very Bad!


Also, what made you think these are "Li-Ion"? Does it say anywhere these are Li-ion? If these are Energizer as you mentioned, then these are probably primary lithium single-use "disposable" 123 batteries, not rechargeable Li-ion. Big dofference between the two. If you recharge primary lithium single-use "disposable" 123 batteries batteries, you'll go KABOOM !!! Very Bad!

 

[Yucca Patrol]

If you just bought those batteries and have the receipt, I would return them since you bought expired goods. It is shocking how much regular stores charge for these batteries.

Then I would order some quality fresh and inexpensive cells from someplace like battery station or battery junction where you can get quality cells for somewhere between $1-2.

 

[BVH]

I'm not familiar with the TA-30 and it's power consumption, but primary 123's are about 500 to 550 mah capacity despite what the labels say (sometimes 650 or 700 mah). Maybe they have just been used up?

 

[fataugie]

45/70 - Right, sorry about that. I did know they were not rechargeable.

Itiu - No, they weren't expired, that was the manufactured date I believe. They are supposed to be good to 2019. I should have been more clear.

Yucca - Believe me, if I did still have the receipt I would have done that first and foremost. I figured I was good to go so I didn't keep the receipt.

I have a Simpson 260 analog meter...would that work? I did measure the voltage and each were 3.0 volts on the nose.

 

[ltiu]

Itiu - No, they weren't expired, that was the manufactured date I believe. They are supposed to be good to 2019. I should have been more clear.

OK, safety suggestion:

DO NOT put in a flashlight a mix batteries that have different expiry dates AND manufacture dates.

Always match batteries exactly. Same brand/manufacturer, same date of manufacture/expiry, same voltage (get a digital multi-meter), same usage history if half-used.

You are playing with fire if you mix batteries, specially with CR123. You will go KABOOM !!!

 

[ltiu]

45/70 - Right, sorry about that. I did know they were not rechargeable.

Curious question:

Before we told you so, what made you think they were rechargeable?

 

[ltiu]

I'm not familiar with the TA-30 and it's power consumption, but primary 123's are about 500 to 550 mah capacity despite what the labels say (sometimes 650 or 700 mah). Maybe they have just been used up?

1500 mAh is the nominal capacity of Energizer CR123:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

 

[fataugie]

Curious question:

Before we told you so, what made you think they were rechargeable?

I used Li-Ion when I should have said Lithium. I was under no illusion that they were rechargeable, I just used the wrong term to describe them. Purchasing regular batteries at Wal-Green, I know they're not rechargeable unless it says so explicitly.

 

[fataugie]

OK, safety suggestion:

DO NOT put in a flashlight a mix batteries that have different expiry dates AND manufacture dates.

Always match batteries exactly. Same brand/manufacturer, same date of manufacture/expiry, same voltage (get a digital multi-meter), same usage history if half-used.

You are playing with fire if you mix batteries, specially with CR123. You will go KABOOM !!!

I appreciate that bit of info...this is my first exposure to this style battery. Up until this point, I've only used standard sizes (AA, AAA, C, D). I've also had no exposure to Lithium batteries other than cell phone and laptop batteries. I know it's bad JuJu to catch one on fire...class D metal fire. I've got that. I didn't realize they were touchy about mixing different ones in a flashlight would be such an issue. I appreciate it.

 

[BVH]

1500 mAh is the nominal capacity of Energizer CR123:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

Yes, but this is wayyy down to 2.0 Volts and most likely at a discharge rate of .1C. Many of the lights we use these in are pulling at least .5C and more. So Peukerts factor really kicks in. You're lucky to get 500 to 600 mah out of them at these rates.

 

[BVH]

I appreciate that bit of info...this is my first exposure to this style battery. Up until this point, I've only used standard sizes (AA, AAA, C, D). I've also had no exposure to Lithium batteries other than cell phone and laptop batteries. I know it's bad JuJu to catch one on fire...class D metal fire. I've got that. I didn't realize they were touchy about mixing different ones in a flashlight would be such an issue. I appreciate it.

When mixing cells of different Voltages, the higher Voltage battery will tend to try to charge the lower Voltage (non-rechargeable) cell. Hence the danger.

 

[fataugie]

Well, as long as we're at it...the rechargeables I was leaning towards were made by AW. I thought I'd get one AW R17670 and one AW RCR123A for use in this light along with a suitable recharger.

Am I off base with this choice?

 

[ltiu]

Well, as long as we're at it...the rechargeables I was leaning towards were made by AW. I thought I'd get one AW R17670 and one AW RCR123A for use in this light along with a suitable recharger.

Am I off base with this choice?

AW = highly recommended.

But!!!

Make sure the light you will be using these in are compatible with rechargeable Li-ion.

Rechargeable Li-ion are 3.7v nominal (vs 3.0v for non-rechargeable CR123). If the light cannot handle the extra voltage, you go , bye bye flashlight.

 

[BVH]

Well, as long as we're at it...the rechargeables I was leaning towards were made by AW. I thought I'd get one AW R17670 and one AW RCR123A for use in this light along with a suitable recharger.

Am I off base with this choice?

It sounds from your post that you intend to use two different physical and capacity size cells in the light at the same time. I would not recommend this. Use identical cells at the same time.

 

[ltiu]

It sounds from your post that you intend to use two different physical and capacity size cells in the light at the same time. I would not recommend this. Use identical cells at the same time.

Wow, I did not notice that!

I just told him to use the same battery type in a light and not to mix different batteries. He did not get that did he?

 

[fataugie]

Wow, I did not notice that!

I just told him to use the same battery type in a light and not to mix different batteries. He did not get that did he?

No, I didn't. I thought you said not to mix battery batches/expiration dates and not to mix different charge level batteries...not the two different form factors. I understood them to be both similar in make, design and capacity in that the 17670 was just two 123's in one package so to speak, so I would be OK. But that's why I asked, to make sure.

I will stick with just the AW RCR123A.

Thanks

 

[ltiu]

No, I didn't. I thought you said not to mix battery batches/expiration dates and not to mix different charge level batteries...not the two different form factors. I understood them to be both similar in make, design and capacity in that the 17670 was just two 123's in one package so to speak, so I would be OK. But that's why I asked, to make sure.

I will stick with just the AW RCR123A.

Thanks

:hairpull::hairpull::hairpull:

Gxd dammit. The same means the same.