Renewable energy ...important ...personal action

NightStorm

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Obviously, Darell never worked in a dealership. I have for over 20 years as a mechanic and believe me when I tell you that the real "Cash Cow" in a dealership is the Finance & Insurance department because of its low overhead and high net profits. Conversely, service departments have high overhead (personnel, training, equipment, energy usage, hazardous waste handling, etc.) and lower net profits. As a matter of fact, most dealership owners treat the Service and Parts departments as necessary evils and would be happy to be rid of them. 'Nuff said, back on topic and all that stuff.

Dan
 

Saaby

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
Right, that is why my theory of slowly introducing the Prius, then doubling or tripling the battey pack size, then sneaking a small AC charger in there. Not that you need to use it, but you can if you want. Then eventually people will want the Prius without the ICE because it is cheaper to buy and run. Or maybe they will want to keep it for those just in case trips or if it an only car. I keep saying this would be perfect, maybe Toyota has this in mind, or maybe not.

[/ QUOTE ]

They could change their slogan to "You don't have to plug it in...unless you wan't to."

[ QUOTE ]
From the oil industry folks I've spoken with, it would appear that a gallon of gasoline would require enough electricity to power my EV1 about 20 miles at 65mph, or 5kWh. I assume this to be the conservative estimate, considering the source. Yet I have no firm numbers that I can support with any weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean 120? I thought the EV1 got 120 GGE. Sounds like you're saying that my 1993 Barndoor Minivan is as efficient as your EV1, which is must a touch more aerodynamic

[ QUOTE ]
HowStuffWorks.com doesn't seem to think fuel cells are particularly less efficient than battery power, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fuel cell stack itself may be as efficient but EVs always get /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gifed over the head for 'upstream' emissions so Fuel Cells ought to be too. Every bit of electricity that goes into MAKING hydrogen is electricity that could be used, more efficiently I dare say, for charging an EV. Almost everything is more efficient on larger scales so we'd likely end up producing hydrogen en masse at a refinery and tansporting it to H statoins. That takes energy too. Electricity transports itself using relatively little energy.

I think most this stuff has been said already but heck...now it's been said again.


It's been hinted at but I'd like to point out something. How often do you buy a new car? Even if it's new--is it used? The newest car in our house is 7 years old and the oldeast is 11 years old. Even if GM, Honda, Ford, Toyota, and Chrysler today all switched to all electric cars, with all the other companies slowly going to electric within the next 10 years it'd probably take at least 20 years for electrics to be the majority and probably 20 more until gas cars are rare. Even then gas will never be 100% obsolete. Ever hears of the classic/restoration car market?

I can't speak for Darell or any EV driver for that matter, but I sense that what they want isn't a change to 100% overnight, but 4 or 5 or more EVs on the market so that not only can you and I choose to drive an EV, but also choose which we'd like to drive. As it is I can't drive a production electric car, period, nobody is selling them.
 

DieselDave

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Darell is correct. Service (parts and service) make more money than new car sales. New car sales don't make squat. What other big business shows you their cost and then fight among themselves to give the car away? If we sold nothing but new cars and trucks, no service, parts or used car sales we would be bankrupt in 6 months.

The manufacture does make money but they give back much of it in rebates. Chevrolet loses money on every Cavalier they build and that's before they give another $3,000 in rebate. You can only build so many losers before the fun goes away. Building the Cavalier is self serving because of CAFE but it's still a loser. If they didn't fight the EV thing until a demand surfaced (meaning people would actually purchase the vehicle in big numbers for a profit) then they would be doing their shareholders a disservice.
 

DieselDave

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
PercaDan said:
Obviously, Darell never worked in a dealership. I have for over 20 years as a mechanic and believe me when I tell you that the real "Cash Cow" in a dealership is the Finance & Insurance department. 'Nuff said, back on topic and all that stuff.

Dan

[/ QUOTE ]

With the rates so low, competition so fierce and with a savvier buyer the F&I dept. still makes money but it's no longer a cash cow. The used car dept. makes the most profit.
 

NightStorm

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Dave,

I have edited the previous post to contain the reasons why F&I is more profitable than Service. I do agree that with the record low interest rates that F&I is not longer as profitable as it once was (makes me wonder if GMAC makes any money now days). However, quite a few dollars are still made with extended service contracts and after-sale accessories (which service gets a part of). Also, we are is agreement about the Used Car Dept., they really mark that junk (yes, I'm using the right word) up. Now....back to the show!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Dan
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
PercaDan said:
Obviously, Darell never worked in a dealership.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, hell. I'm not gonna debate this. I'd hazard a guess that most dealership employees are not real clear on where the money comes and goes for the most part. Dealership owners and managers on the other hand...

I certainly should have said "aftermarket support" to include parts as well as service. I still stand by my comment. It is what I know to be true. You seem to know something else to be true. I honestly have no problem with that.
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
Saaby said:
Don't you mean 120? I thought the EV1 got 120 GGE. Sounds like you're saying that my 1993 Barndoor Minivan is as efficient as your EV1, which is must a touch more aerodynamic

[/ QUOTE ]
It takes 20 EV miles worth of electricity to MAKE the gallon of gas. Not to burn the gallon. By consuming the energy equivalent of that gallon of gas in my EV1, I can go ~120 miles. That make more sense?

[ QUOTE ]
Electricity transports itself using relatively little energy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, there are huge transportation losses in electricity. But those same losses will exist if you make H2 at the end or charge batteries, as you've mentioned.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for Darell or any EV driver for that matter, but I sense that what they want isn't a change to 100% overnight....

[/ QUOTE ]
Really, this is my biggest frustration, and it is why we need the oft-mentioned leadership to accomplish it. Even if I could wave my magic want and create the lovely ZEV cars that I want to see on the road right NOW, it would be literally 20 years before any impact would be noticed. Significant environmental improvement will likely not happen even during my daughter's driving career. We needed these changes to start happening long, long ago. I'm often accused of wanting to skip the baby steps and head straight for the frigging solution. And that is obviously the wrong approach - but I have no self control, and I have several extra helpings of frustration. Yes we need to take baby steps. The problem is that we needed to take those baby steps back when the industry was still in diapers. What we have here today is a full-blown automotive mid-life crisis with no simple solution.
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
DieselDave said:
If they didn't fight the EV thing until a demand surfaced (meaning people would actually purchase the vehicle in big numbers for a profit) then they would be doing their shareholders a disservice.


[/ QUOTE ]
True indeed. And unfortunately (?) the most effective way to solve this is to make it LESS profitable for the industry to NOT make ZEVs. Back in the 70's auto makers were billed $10,000 per unit sold that did not have an effective catalytic converter. You can bet that the shareholders were all for adding a $500 catalytic converter at that point!

I'm taking a break here, guys. I always feel guilty hijacking others' threads anyway.

Be good.
 

DieselDave

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

More government intervention without the will of the people and it would cost us all more money. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

As usual, on the other hand we need something and would prefer the people stand up (I wish Darell would be more vocal) and demand the change. I am preaching a little on the subject myself.
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
DieselDave said:
More government intervention without the will of the people and it would cost us all more money. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

As usual, on the other hand we need something and would prefer the people stand up (I wish Darell would be more vocal) and demand the change. I am preaching a little on the subject myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're SO in agreement here that it hurts. The missing ingredient? Accurate information. The money, the lawyers, the industry, the PR firms - they're all on the same damn side. And here is this little, tiny group of us trying to get the word out, and we're typically taken for crackpot tree-hugging freaks.

There can be no accurate assessment of "the will of the people" if the people in question don't have all the facts.

Can't say I've yet heard anybody wish I was more vocal on this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

newg

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

There would need to be a pretty big gesture from the people to catch notice. Maybe setting up a site where people could put the downpayment on an EV in escrow for one to be produced (at full, not subsidized price). Get 20,000 people to sign on and maybe you've got something. But who is going to want to do that with their money when they could just go buy a hybrid instead?

Probably more likely through government intervention, but that seems pretty unlikely too.
What efforts are being made, exactly?
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
newg said:
Probably more likely through government intervention, but that seems pretty unlikely too.
What efforts are being made, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]
I could seriously go on for EVER on this - plese don't challenge me! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But really, I must take a break.

Nutshell? The only governement effort being made at this point is to allow the industry to delay ZEVs for an undisclosed amount of time so they can pretend to want to make "demonstration" fuel cell vehicles. So in eight long years we'll likely have some really neat looking ZEVs at the big auto shows, but don't strain yourself looking for them in the showroom.

Really, truly break time for Bonzo. You guys go at it, and maybe we can even get this thread back on course without my wind.
 

Saaby

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

So I went camping and used my 10 watt solar panel. That's renewable energy is it not?
 

newg

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Actually, once our sun is used up it will be gone forever... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

Is there a reasonably-priced solar solution for general home power? Like if you only wanted to use it during the day, so you didn't need the batteries? Are the panels easy to install by yourself? Do you get a tax credit? What is Dean's plan for renewable energy, exactly?
 

NightStorm

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
Darell said:
[ QUOTE ]
PercaDan said:
Obviously, Darell never worked in a dealership.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, hell. I'm not gonna debate this. I'd hazard a guess that most dealership employees are not real clear on where the money comes and goes for the most part. Dealership owners and managers on the other hand...

I certainly should have said "aftermarket support" to include parts as well as service. I still stand by my comment. It is what I know to be true. You seem to know something else to be true. I honestly have no problem with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Darell, there is knowledge acquired through experience and then there is......

Dan
 

NightStorm

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

.....information gleaned from other sources. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Funny thing, most of my former managers confided in me and listened to my input. Go figure. Just to let you know, all the dealerships I worked for treated the individual departments as separate entities. Therefore, Parts was separate from Service, which was separate from New Car, and so on and so forth. So I stand by my previous comments. Now, I too will allow this thread to drift back to the original topic as I'm in the middle of reconfiguring the old 'puter and its hard keeping up with this in between boots. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute to the topic when I am done with this.

Later
Dan
 

Darell

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Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Ah, hell with it. I'm sure some of you are subscribed to this thread and have read the reply that was parked right here.

I've decided to try and teach myself some self-control. We'll see how it goes.
 
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