Replacing Reverse Lights w/ LED

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ResQTech

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Working on a project to replace my reverse lights with LEDs and have a couple of questions:

1) LED Choice. What would be my best choice and what type of resistor would I need for automobile use?
- Cree P4
- Seoul P4 U
- Luxeon III (What's the diff between joker and non-joker?)

2) Optic/Reflector. Which will give me the most flood pattern?
- Fraen LP
- NX05
- 27mm IMS
- McR27
 
Wow. I think that I will dive in here. I also think about the possibility of replacing every single light in my car with LEDs. Considering my very limited budget, I knd of hesitated on replacing my reverse lights with a LED replacement simply because I realized that my reverse lights will only be on for 5-10 seconds at a time once or twice a day. That is it. For what I see, it will not be easy to get the LEDs to produce that many lumens that cheaply. I also worry about thermal management a bit if you do have to stay in reverse for a while (when backing up a trailer or when you are backing up to line yourself up up with a trailer). It seems like currently, LEDs lack a bit when you need large amounts of lumens without any need for heatsinking. Cheap bulbs excel here. I am always optimistic with modding things with LED, and I always enjoy obstacles, but maybe it is best to invest the same time and money into a very nice set of LED tail lights. This is my opinion, but it may save you the frustration.

I suppose you can throw a bunch of high-power LEDs together and wire them with a resistor with minimal heatsinking if desired. It would not be that difficult. You can do it cheaply, too. The life span of the LEDs will be shortened, but you shouldn't kill them. You may not even notice any shortened life span or dimming just because the lights will not even be on for long enough. I would say the heck with any fancy drivers or excessive heatsinking. Just find a way to give the emitters enough current to give you satisfactory current, and get the light you need. Really get a chance to use them and use the LED's inherent long life qualities. Those of us with flashlights will never have to worry about dimming since the LEDs are not even on for long.

Anyways, if you are really sure about this, you can go many routes. There is the simplest and/or cheapest route, or there is the safest and/or expensive route. I am not saying that the cheapest route will be prone to failure, it is that it will be lacking any type of current regulation and possibly voltage surge protection.

First of all, lets see what we have to standards we need to meet. I heard somewhere that those standard 1156 bulbs used for the reverse lights (singe contact) are 25W bulbs that produce maybe 300lm. They have superbright auxiliary reverse lights that use 55W bulbs, but I bet you would be happy to get atleast the same or more brightness than stock, right? If allowed, I am sure you want more brightness.

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The simplest/cheapest route: Get four Edison Opto K-series LEDs available at DX for ~$4.34 each. Wire them in series and hook them up to a resistor, or even a LM317 set up in current limiting mode. You can mount the four emitters close enough and use a small enough round heatsink that you fit this into the taillight enclosure with little trouble. You may not need secondary optics if your tail light has a basic reflector for the reverse lights. If you really want optics, there are very few that are small enough that can fit through that hole. If you plan on cutting that hole out bigger, then any reflector or optic with legs would work. This way you just glue them down and they will not go anywhere. The heatsink can be a chink of copper, aluminum, or even a trimmed down CPU or GPU heatsink. You will have to use your imagination here. Any heatsink should be better than none at all, even if you plan on running them to heck. You will have to figure out which resistor value you need. I like going here:

http://www.metku.net/index.html?path=mods/ledcalc/index_eng

Go to the LEDs in series area. Type in the supply voltage (lets say 14.5V since the car should be running in reverse hopefully), the forward voltage of the LED, then the current in "mA". You will have four in series, so enter the number of LEDs. Presto! Finding the Vf of the LED can be tricky. It depends entirely on the drive currents. From the datasheet, the LED will need around ~3.2V each at 350mA and it will need ~3.6V at 1000mA. I say draw a quick graph and plot those two points. Draw a line between them and pick a current level. There you go. The LED will provide around 80 lumens each at 350mA and maybe around 160lm at 1000mA. This a rough, but conservative guess. Powering each at 350mA will give you ~320lm total (comparable to the old bulb). Power them at 500mA each and you may get 400lm total. Power them at 700mA each and you may get 500lm total. Finally, power them at 1000mA each and you may get 640lm. Consider the total wattage, of course, as well as the heat generated. Things will get pretty hot in there, but do not forget that LEDs handle more heat than you think. Just because you may almost burn yourself on the heatsink does not entirely mean that your LEDs are in danger.

You do not have to use the Edison K-series LEDs. Lumiled K2s are very rugged, but far less efficient (less lumens). Cree XR-Es and Seoul P4s are nice, but they can be expensive. Edison Opto K-series use the same die as the XR-E, but it just uses a cheaper packaging. The Edison is also just like the Luxeon 1W and 3W emitters, so cheap optics and reflectors will work with them. Rebels are pretty cheap, and they can be relatively efficient (the 0070 and 0090 parts come to mind). However, they can be a bit more difficult to solder and mount. You may be up to the challenge though. They do not have an entire arsenal of optics, either, but you may not even need optics. What do you think? If I made reverse lights, I would go this route. If the LEDs would blow for some odd reason, or I get rear-ended, I would not cry that I lost a bunch of money from the reverse lights. I may point at the mangled LEDs and laugh, actually. I am kidding.

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Now, to the opposite end: safe while using a larger or less limited budget. You can use any emitter that the heart desires. Use the Q-binned Cree XR-Es are super bright, and they have nice optics built on to them to give you a wide 70 degree radiation pattern. The tail light reflector may not reflect any light due to this narrow beam, however. That should not matter. Seouls are bright, too. Rebels come to mind if you do not mind soldering the small parts. The 0100 Rebels are real mean competitors to the Q-binned XR-Es. You can squeeze many Rebels into a small area, too. Any older, less efficient LED seems plain wasteful.

Drivers for automotive applications can be hard to come by. The 12V system is odd because the voltage can vary from 12V to 14.5V. You have to make sure that the Vf of the LEDs are low enough so the total voltage is not so hight that it certain drivers will not work with it. A buck/boost driver would work, but I do not know if you can get any that are of heavier duty for this application. A buck driver would work fine. There are several out there that can handle up to 1000mA. Since your car is running, then most likely, the Vf will be lower than the car voltage. You can search around for the right driver. The Downboy and SOB comes to mind. These are found at the Sandwich Shoppe. The PowerPuck and BuckPuck will work and can be found at LEDSupply.com for a decent price. Heck, if you want, you can still go the resistor route.

For heatsinking, you have to find the drive levels of the LEDs and find the total wattage and go from there. For around 15W during short bursts, you can get away with something the size of a Modamag D sized tri or quad LED heatsink, for example (a weird example actually). A small heatsink from a computer's graphics card or old Processor may work if not too small. Again, your imagination would have to run wild here.

As for optics, anything may work. Most tail lamp assemblies have the faceted lens that spreads light out in an oval shape or will give a horizontal bar shaped beam, so you do not need an expensive optic that gives a perfect beam. Any plastic reflector that throws a beam in one general direction will work. For the XR-E LED, the newly released Fraen multi-faceted reflector may work. The same with Polymer Optics' XR-E optics. I guess that if those facets on the lens really spreads the beam enough, you could just let the LED go naked. The XR-E already has a more narrow beam than other LEDs.

Finally, the most important component: voltage spike protection. In some cars, you can see some nasty voltage spikes from electric motors kicking on and off (solonoids for your compressor pump for your A/C, electric radiator fans, and your heating/cooling systems' blower motor). Spikes may occur from the ignition system, as well as the alternator. All this noise and the high voltage spikes reek havoc on your poor LEDs and the slightly delicate driver circuitry. The ICs and transistors can be destroyed, as well as your LED die. The correct Zener diode may help suppress these spikes. Better yet, use a Avalanch Diode (AVS diode may be the exact name?) or some sort of voltage suppressing diode. These diodes will clamp during the voltage spikes and either dissipate these spikes as heat, or allow a nearby resistor or fuse to take the hit instead. Also, a nearby capacitor will help smooth out the noisy power, allowing the driver circuits to run better. If you need some help selecting a diode, just ask. I had to get some for an automotive LED project and they can be difficult to explain better.

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I would say that whether you choose the cheap or expensive way, it does not hurt to get a protection diode to save your LEDs from failure. They do not cost too much (<$6). So far, what do you think? Did I scare you any, or give you more confidence? You are not walking into a super-easy mod. Do not get discouraged, though. The cheap mod is always an easy way of doing things. If anything would go wrong when testing or experimenting the LEDs, then you will not be as heartbroken as when you used an nicer XR-E and a nice driver circuit. I would say get a few LED emitters, a driver, and some metal for a heatsink and go at it. You will learn so much! For resistors, you can afford to buy a bunch of different values so you can switch them out during testing in case you are sending too much current to the LEDs or not enough.

Holy cow! I cannot help but to leave long posts, but this is ridiculous!!! I hope you had the patience to read atleast most of it. Sorry! If any of it did not make any sense, or is not clear enough, please tell me so I can correct it.

Well, I hope that you will find this useful. If you decide to not do this, then hopefully aomeone else may find this useful. This same approach can be used in any other LED lighting on your car (tail/brake lights, etc). Please give us more information and specifics about your car, your exact desires (brightness, budget, and whether you want to cut any plastic from your tail light enclosures). From there, we can be of more help. Otherwise, we are trying to make extremely vague instructions that are too long because we have to include every type of LED and other variable. Sigh. I need to stop typing and give it a rest....


-Tony
 
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Well, I feel kind of stupid to post all that for nothing. I should have eased into things, but instead, I chose to dive in to the very vague question. Luckily I had too much time, even though I could have used that time sleeping. :banghead:

If any are still interested, I am more than willing to further help....

-Tony
 
for nothing? good writeup gryloc. i read, i gleen info out of.

i am always interested in this because my whole car, minus the dash, and headlights is presentally "testing" leds. the van also uses leds internally because the stupid dome lights are useless.

but indeed i did not change the reverse lights, cause they arent on for long enough.
IF i did, i would want them to be BRIGHTER , by lots, otherwise there would be no reason to change them.
which would mean a wall of 4x3W minimum per normal bulb.

so far my quad unregulated LUX3s have not had issues with the spiking that occurs. i knew that could be an issue, but so far it didnt effect it.

if i actually USED my car i might know more about the longevity i guess its just a shelf queen .:huh:

anyways your write up is certanley not unread.
 
Gryloc, even thought the post is a little old it is very informative and gives me some idea of how much I do not know about building lights with LEDs. I am trying to put together a reverse light for my car. I designed a setup and ithas been built for a different model of the car but I am trying to adapt it to a different housing with a smaller opening. The light was designed to utilize the factory housing and relfector. A standard halgen light and the online auction replacement LED lights do a good job of ighting up the inside of the reflector but not so good at putting light out on the area behind the car. The design I came up with is very simple but makes better use of the reflector and actually puts light where it is needed.
A big problem with adapting the light is the heat from the LEDs and the heat sink along with the power. The setup right now har 2 very small LEDs that put out a trmendous amount of light attache to an aluminum mounting piece which acts as the heatr sink. The power comes from a 1000ma buck puck. Another thing I need is some type of error cancelling so the car does no think the light is out and give error codes. I think that the LEDs are Luxeon Rebel LEDs. I am trying to get this to work with a 921/H21W and possibly 1156 base.
Are there any LEDs hat have an output similar to the luxeon rebel without the heat problem?
thank you
 
Well seeing as how I only use the reverse lights in my car for 30 seconds or so at a time max, I bought 2 P60 Drop-ins from DX that work up to 18V and soldered them to the bulb bases.
They plug right in and blast out ~400 lumens which is more than enough to see anything behind me. And since I don't travel far in reverse they are off before they can overheat.
I didn't add any additional heatsinking.
One Con is the feedback from the driver cuts out my radio reception while the lights are on.
 
LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

Threadsurrection!

Well seeing as how I only use the reverse lights in my car for 30 seconds or so at a time max, I bought 2 P60 Drop-ins from DX that work up to 18V and soldered them to the bulb bases.
They plug right in and blast out ~400 lumens which is more than enough to see anything behind me.
While the 921 puts out about 264 lumens, the 1156 puts out about 402 lumens, and the 3457 gives 503 lumens, they'll each outperform an LED 'drop-in' as the fixtures that use those incandescent bulbs were designed for them. Sure, that LED will put out 400 lumens, but it doesn't all go in the right directions and can cause glare.

If your vehicle uses the 1156, there's a 35W bulb from Candlepower, Inc (no relation), the 796.


One Con is the feedback from the driver cuts out my radio reception while the lights are on.
And it could also wreak havoc with CANbus, if your vehicle has it, so there's another con (as well as the original con in that the light is not performing according to design).

Reverse lights are federally-regulated vehicle lighting equipment, therefore use of these "drop-ins" would not be legal.
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

Threadsurrection!

Yeah I noticed afterwards that I wasn't on time :ohgeez:

But in regards to a 1156 putting out 402lm if I'm lucky I only see 80lm coming out of my car per bulb (2)
However with the 2 LED drop-ins I have installed 400lm comes out the back with medium diffusion from the plastic lens on the rear light cluster (its clear.)
So maybe its the design of the reflector in the car that is made for the 1156 that stinks
Either way I am not going back to stock, its not like a cop is going to ticket me, or an inspector is going to fail my reg. for brighter reverse lights.
Heck the running lights and the brake lights are LED and the only way you'd know is by opening up the fixture (DX 58914 30 SMD Red)
I left the flashers alone because I've heard they will flash too fast.
Maybe thats the CANbus issue you mentioned. I'll look into that thanks.

Now maybe if I upgrade to a XM-L drop-in with HI/low/Strobe I'll get into trouble by triple shifting into reverse :devil:

And the federal regulations are a joke because every year there's another high end car with even brighter and more blinding lights its enough to make a guy tint the front windshield, but that I will get a ticket for, because I don't have a PBA card!:shrug:

The next upgrade I'd like is aspheric warm white fog lights with a deep cowl to cut any side spill.
I'm thinking 3 on each side of the car, down under the front end so it just shoots out of nowhere, maybe beside the front wheels.:naughty:
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

Heck the running lights and the brake lights are LED and the only way you'd know is by opening up the fixture
There are other ways to tell, like with photometric testing. In many cases, the eye alone can tell you something is wrong because the effective projected luminous lens area is too small, or there's excessive light at some angles and not enough at others. LED drop-ins just do not work correctly.
I left the flashers alone because I've heard they will flash too fast.
Maybe thats the CANbus issue you mentioned. I'll look into that thanks.
They can, but that's not a CANbus issue. However, I'm not going to tell you what it is or assist you with working around it, as I'm not here to help you further violate the law.


And the federal regulations are a joke because every year there's another high end car with even brighter and more blinding lights its enough to make a guy tint the front windshield, but that I will get a ticket for, because I don't have a PBA card!:shrug:
File a complaint about that make and model with the NHTSA-- and also be assured that if it's a reputable maker, the lights they install will be compliant with the law. Don't "fight crime with crime", and don't use haphazard enforcement of the law or your assumption that police give other officers a free pass as an excuse to endanger the rest of us.

The next upgrade I'd like is aspheric warm white fog lights with a deep cowl to cut any side spill.
I'm thinking 3 on each side of the car, down under the front end so it just shoots out of nowhere, maybe beside the front wheels.:naughty:

There's a meme for that somewhere.
 
Actually, the problem is that the shape of the reflector for the reverse lights in the tail housing is one that does not really benefit from 360 degrees of light such as that from a bulb. After looking at it and trying various different arrangements i came up with an incredibly simple setup that works with the reflector to put light on the area behind the car with a nice clean cuttoff. The reflector is small and there is open on the top so any light from the top of the bulb is not reflected anywhere and is wasted.
AS far as the legality, I have seen many companies selling LEDs for reverse lights including one I helped create and have not heard of anyone having any legal issues. I am not trying to contradict what you are saying, I am just surprised to hear that it is illegal. If the concern is the light getting in other drivers eyes then that is kind of strange since if someone is in a positin where your reverse lights arwe blinding them, they probably do not want to be there or you probably want to be sure you see them.
This whole thing arose from having window tint and a long driveway on a street with no streetlights. It was hard to back ouit of the driveway at night.
I was not sure that the lights needed a heat sink either since they are only on for short times but I was going with the better safe than melted approach since the replacement houisings go for about $600 a set.
I switched out some of the other lights on my car with LEDs and I have the fast flashing but the police have never said anything even when they are behind me at a light with the turn signal flashing.
I know that there is a way using either a resistor or canbus to have the lights work error free and not flash fast. When the car starts all the exterior lights blink a couple times as the cars ecu checks them. When it finds a light that is not using the normal amount of power(since the leds use less) the cars ecu thinks it is burned out and throws an error light and code. I guess that the resistor or canbus fools the ecu into thinking it is a regluar light by making it think that the right amount of power is being used and the light is fine.
 
LED Drop-ins don't work

Actually, the problem is that the shape of the reflector for the reverse lights in the tail housing is one that does not really benefit from 360 degrees of light such as that from a bulb.
On the contrary-- the reflector is designed specifically for such a light source, and the bulb socket itself is designed to minimize shadowing from the filament supports.
After looking at it and trying various different arrangements i came up with an incredibly simple setup that works with the reflector to put light on the area behind the car with a nice clean cuttoff. The reflector is small and there is open on the top so any light from the top of the bulb is not reflected anywhere and is wasted.
It might look like it works, but it doesn't.
AS far as the legality, I have seen many companies selling LEDs for reverse lights including one I helped create and have not heard of anyone having any legal issues.
The "I haven't heard of it, therefore it doesn't exist" argument is a common logical fallacy.

I am not trying to contradict what you are saying, I am just surprised to hear that it is illegal. If the concern is the light getting in other drivers eyes then that is kind of strange since if someone is in a positin where your reverse lights arwe blinding them, they probably do not want to be there or you probably want to be sure you see them.
Or you're trying to back up on the side of the road and it causes problems for other drivers.

This whole thing arose from having window tint and a long driveway on a street with no streetlights. It was hard to back ouit of the driveway at night.
Do a three-way turn and drive out straight? Don't tint your windows that dark? Make sure your eyes are night-adjusted before driving? Install a streetlight?

I know that there is a way using either a resistor or canbus to have the lights work error free and not flash fast. When the car starts all the exterior lights blink a couple times as the cars ecu checks them. When it finds a light that is not using the normal amount of power(since the leds use less) the cars ecu thinks it is burned out and throws an error light and code. I guess that the resistor or canbus fools the ecu into thinking it is a regluar light by making it think that the right amount of power is being used and the light is fine.

Again, the fast blinking is not typically a CANbus issue and has existed long before CANbus did. I mentioned the reverse lights possibly causing CANbus problems because they apparently create a lot of EM interference. This can cause problems with other systems if it disrupts communication.
 
After doing some research on the NHtSA and DOT websites I have not found anything regarding backup lights other than the color and minimums that are allowable.
I looked at the DOT rules section 108 which is quite specific about everything(i cold not believe how thorough) for restrictions on backup lights but the only thing I found was that they had to be white and when they were to be operative. I can't find anything that mentions the type of lighting or allowable replacements. If you have a source or link to the information I would really appreciate it if you would post the link. I am thinking about selling the lights and I do not want to be selling something illegal.
I did see that there is a campaign to make backup cameras mandatory in the coming years which would lead me to beleive that brighter reverse lights would be welcome since they would help the driver see if there was a pedestria behind him.
 
Re: LED Drop-ins don't work

On the contrary-- the reflector is designed specifically for such a light source, and the bulb socket itself is designed to minimize shadowing from the filament supports.

It might look like it works, but it doesn't.


Actually it does work. I have photos showing the difference between the stock bulb and this design.
The reflector was designed and a light source found. It was designed to adhere to regulations regarding the size and position but not to a specific bulb. In later models they changed the design and have factory LED taillights. If you saw the reflector you would know what i mean. It is a parabolic reflector but it is only about 1.25 inches high. Like a slice of watermelon with the green part being the reflector and the red part being the area inside the housing with no top surface and a flat bottom surface. Any light from the top of the bulb is sent outside of the reflector area and is wasted. The light coming out the bottom is reflected directly back off the flat mirror like surface below which then goes back to the bulb or out the top. The light coming out the sides is reflected out of the housing through the narrow slot opening by the curved textured reflector sides.
If this were a round reflector or one with reflective surfaces that directed light on all sides then I would agree about the bulb but with only two sides directing light out of the housing there is a a more effective way of doing it
 
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After doing some research on the NHtSA and DOT websites I have not found anything regarding backup lights other than the color and minimums that are allowable.
Each item of motor vehicle equipment imported or produced that is physically capable of being installed in a regulated vehicle lighting device of a motor vehicle (which itself is certified by its manufacturer as compliant with FMVSS), *must* comply with all applicable provisions of FMVSS, where "item of motor vehicle equipment" includes light sources.

I could probably forgive the use of LED drop-ins and other kludges for backup lights, but not for turn, stop, and tail lamps (or side markers, or parking lights, certainly not headlights...)
 
I looked at the DOT rules section 108 which is quite specific about everything(i cold not believe how thorough) for restrictions on backup lights but the only thing I found was that they had to be white and when they were to be operative

You're not looking in the right place. FMVSS 108 regulates many aspects of lighting performance by reference to apposite SAE technical standards. In this case, SAE J593 contains the design, construction, and performance requirements for backup lights. It is not free, and you probably don't want to pay $50+ for it; fortunately its contents are essentially identical to the European reversing lamp standard used throughout the rest of the world, which is free and can be downloaded here. You're wise not to dismiss the legality issue, because if a vehicle lighting device you make doesn't meet the requirements, it greatly increases your liability in the event of a collision—and given the types of collisions within the scope of the backup lights' function (pedestrians!), the liability potential is quite steep. And if you sell lamps that don't meet the requirements, you open yourself up to enormous liabilities even if they never cause a crash (civil penalties assessed by NHTSA). So it is definitely worth your while to make sure any lamps you intend to use on public roads and/or sell are fully compliant. Keep in mind there are other requirements, too, beyond those stipulated in SAE J593 and ECE R23, because you are talking about LED lamps. There are tests for output and color not just when first powered up, but after they've been lit for a specified amount of time (which tends to drop output and shift color). This is a very difficult test for most LED replacements for bulbs to pass, because most of them have inadequate heat sinking.

One difficulty I foresee: it sounds like you are making a device to replace a filament bulb in a backup light. You may figure out how to make this work and pass the performance tests in a specific backup light, but because many different backup lights use just a few common types of bulbs, it is almost certain that your device will fit but not work legally/safely in at least one and probably many backup lights other than the ones on your particular kind of car. That would be a problem because it is not legally adequate to sell an item with usage restrictions listed on the packaging ("For off-road use only", "for these listed cars only"), etc.; if a device is physically capable of being installed on a vehicle certified as compliant with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (which is all of them on the roads in the USA), then that device must itself comply, and that device when installed must maintain the compliance of the vehicle.

Good luck!
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

While the 921 puts out about 264 lumens, the 1156 puts out about 402 lumens, and the 3457 gives 503 lumens...

If your vehicle uses the 1156, there's a 35W bulb from Candlepower, Inc (no relation), the 796.

I've been spoiled by the 796 (swapping out the 1156) in my previous VW. My new Mazda uses the 921 and it's pathetic. Any news if there'll be an incandescent alternative in the near future?
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

There won't be.
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

I've been spoiled by the 796 (swapping out the 1156) in my previous VW. My new Mazda uses the 921 and it's pathetic. Any news if there'll be an incandescent alternative in the near future?


There is a Krypton charged bulb made by Feit Electric 18 watt version, not sure how many lumens it is rated for?
 
Re: LED 'drop-ins' in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is a bad idea

Enough talk about using illegal light setups. Thread closed.
 
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