ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)
- Thread starter Lunarmodule
- Start date
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PlayboyJoeShmoe
Flashaholic
I know that because of Newbies testing I will do everything in my power to NOT have two widely varying 123s in MY lights!
Flash amp testing baby!
Interesting side note: I keep lith AAs in adapters in a 2D light at work. It was DEAD. No light, not even a feeble glow.
The AAs that came out had a V of 1.57ea. But they had fA of less than .5 ea.
By strictly checking voltage you'd think they were good....
I'll not be checking 123 Voltage! Amp tells the story!
Flash amp testing baby!
Interesting side note: I keep lith AAs in adapters in a 2D light at work. It was DEAD. No light, not even a feeble glow.
The AAs that came out had a V of 1.57ea. But they had fA of less than .5 ea.
By strictly checking voltage you'd think they were good....
I'll not be checking 123 Voltage! Amp tells the story!
NewBie
*Retired*
TooManyGizmos said:.
..Some people in that Cheers'N'Jeers thread are wondering if there was ever a legitimate reason for the tests to be done .
I admit ..... I am BEWILDERED by this !
And I don't know why the topics and situations raised in that Cheers'N'Jeers thread , have not been divulged here in this thread. I hope Kevin of BatteryStation is aware of that thread. It casts doubts. Kevin has not posted in that thread - so I wonder if he is aware of all the controversy . I only found the thread 2 hours ago , myself. I was amazed at what I was reading ........ now I'm suspicious .
This is all "Twilight Zone" stuff .
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There are no doubts, there are plenty of other examples right here on cpf of these things going off.
I've been able to replicate the cells going off.
Scroll up and take a look at the pictures.
Start reading this thread here, at post #6:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=123462&page=1&pp=40
I hope this thread doesn't get lost in non technical issues. The Cafe forum has it's place and it's not here. Inaccurate information presented will be quickly debunked. So far, that hasn't happened.
www.cdc.gov/niosh/fact0002.html NIOAH exploding flashlight risk
www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/FAALiBaFiRe.pdf DOT Flammability Assessment
www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_04.PDF Dealing w/inflight lithium battery fires
www.iata.org/NR/ContentConnector/CS2000/SiteInterface/sites/whatwedo/dangerousgoods/file/US_DOT_HM224E_Lithium_Battery_Ban.pdf
Federal Register Vol. 69, No. 240 December 15, 2004
Though not geared specifically for personal electronic devices the FAA/DOT Hazmat groups are meeting July 12 & 13th for another look at Lithium battery issues.
edit: fixed link
www.cdc.gov/niosh/fact0002.html NIOAH exploding flashlight risk
www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/FAALiBaFiRe.pdf DOT Flammability Assessment
www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_04.PDF Dealing w/inflight lithium battery fires
www.iata.org/NR/ContentConnector/CS2000/SiteInterface/sites/whatwedo/dangerousgoods/file/US_DOT_HM224E_Lithium_Battery_Ban.pdf
Federal Register Vol. 69, No. 240 December 15, 2004
Though not geared specifically for personal electronic devices the FAA/DOT Hazmat groups are meeting July 12 & 13th for another look at Lithium battery issues.
edit: fixed link
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NewBie
*Retired*
Since my PM6 light blew up, while I'm waiting for additional old PM6's to arrive from Cmoore and Dat2zip, I decided to work backwards.
I used a bulb for a Streamlight Scorpion/TL-2, which draws slightly less current , ~9%. Unfortunately, they didn't have any PM6 bulbs.
Here are the cells in open air (running cooler, much), and very little force put on the cells, just enough to make contact (pressure):
I did three runs, with no failures of the purposefully mis-matched cells. ~30-40%.
I have started testing with this new rig, where I wrapped aluminum foil around the cells, to hold the heat in a little, same low force contacts:
Stand by for NEWS!!!
I used a bulb for a Streamlight Scorpion/TL-2, which draws slightly less current , ~9%. Unfortunately, they didn't have any PM6 bulbs.
Here are the cells in open air (running cooler, much), and very little force put on the cells, just enough to make contact (pressure):
I did three runs, with no failures of the purposefully mis-matched cells. ~30-40%.
I have started testing with this new rig, where I wrapped aluminum foil around the cells, to hold the heat in a little, same low force contacts:
Stand by for NEWS!!!
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chimo
Flashlight Enthusiast
Newbie, thanks for doing these tests.
This is an extremely interesting thread. Hopefully, lots of people will read it and (at least) increase their awareness of, and due care required, when using Lithium chemistry batteries.
This is an extremely interesting thread. Hopefully, lots of people will read it and (at least) increase their awareness of, and due care required, when using Lithium chemistry batteries.
NewBie
*Retired*
Okay, the second rig was a success.
Things to note:
-Nearly no pressure on cells.
-Cells wrapped with Aluminum foil to hold heat in, like a flashlight would tend to do.
-One cell intentionally drained 30-40%
I was going out to check the temperature, when the lid was blown off and a fireball rolled out, and the lid came back down, I scooted it over to contain the smoke. The guts of the cell were on fire, but went out probably due to a lack of oxygen, before I got my camera.
Whoa, wow, dasm- lotsa boom power in those!
Unfortunately the video reached the end of the tape.
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Okay, now that you have read this far...time for pictures:
I will be testing this a few more times (to prove repeatability), and then I will go back to testing other brands, under the same scenario, so I can see if they also do the same thing.
Remember, these are intentionally mis-matched cells.
Also, remember, Kevin at Battery Station is the only company testing cell matching to the best of their ability, before sending to the customer. We have had plenty of cases where folks have found either depleted or partially depleted cells. This depletion problem is well documented on this forum for SureFire cells. Next week, I will repeat testing with other brands, to see the results.
Things to note:
-Nearly no pressure on cells.
-Cells wrapped with Aluminum foil to hold heat in, like a flashlight would tend to do.
-One cell intentionally drained 30-40%
I was going out to check the temperature, when the lid was blown off and a fireball rolled out, and the lid came back down, I scooted it over to contain the smoke. The guts of the cell were on fire, but went out probably due to a lack of oxygen, before I got my camera.
Whoa, wow, dasm- lotsa boom power in those!
Unfortunately the video reached the end of the tape.
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Okay, now that you have read this far...time for pictures:
I will be testing this a few more times (to prove repeatability), and then I will go back to testing other brands, under the same scenario, so I can see if they also do the same thing.
Remember, these are intentionally mis-matched cells.
Also, remember, Kevin at Battery Station is the only company testing cell matching to the best of their ability, before sending to the customer. We have had plenty of cases where folks have found either depleted or partially depleted cells. This depletion problem is well documented on this forum for SureFire cells. Next week, I will repeat testing with other brands, to see the results.
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Codeman
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,687
Thanks for the resize! Man, those big pics took a while to load!
Looks like the cell that vented took a ride around the bucket. I'd hate to think of what damage could happen if a venting cell got out of it's container.
Those shots really show the violence that occurs. I think that was a good idea to test outside of a light. It lets folks see what just the cells are capable of doing by themselves. It certainly underscores what a flashlight can be turned into, while separating it from any specific light. What I mean is, if someone sees these, they'll realize it can happen with any light, not just those lights we've seen blown open.
Thank you!
Looks like the cell that vented took a ride around the bucket. I'd hate to think of what damage could happen if a venting cell got out of it's container.
Those shots really show the violence that occurs. I think that was a good idea to test outside of a light. It lets folks see what just the cells are capable of doing by themselves. It certainly underscores what a flashlight can be turned into, while separating it from any specific light. What I mean is, if someone sees these, they'll realize it can happen with any light, not just those lights we've seen blown open.
Thank you!
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Newbie,
Significant data point!! Flashlight style and brand has now seemingly been removed from the equation. I find myself wondering how much of this is key on ambient (to the battery) temp, current demand on the system and if this is typical of all CR123's, regardless of manufacture.
Regardless, in this example, I believe it is safe to state that there was enough energy present and in a form which allowed for the system to bypass any inherent protection and result in an electro chemical reaction that was well beyond the intent of the system and a hazard to be avoided!!
You have certainly found the monster lurking within! Now what is its diet and behavior????
EDIT:
I think it is fair to state that the door for speculation on Lunarmodule's event has now been opened but the point is really moot as it was not a singularity in any regards at its core; perhaps in the reported afermath only. :thinking: :shrug:
In so far as it may have provided the momentum for further investigation as the work now being done by Newbie, I think Lunarmodule's reported event has had a good and proactive result on the issue of CR123 use and safety considerations. JMHO
Significant data point!! Flashlight style and brand has now seemingly been removed from the equation. I find myself wondering how much of this is key on ambient (to the battery) temp, current demand on the system and if this is typical of all CR123's, regardless of manufacture.
Regardless, in this example, I believe it is safe to state that there was enough energy present and in a form which allowed for the system to bypass any inherent protection and result in an electro chemical reaction that was well beyond the intent of the system and a hazard to be avoided!!
You have certainly found the monster lurking within! Now what is its diet and behavior????
EDIT:
I think it is fair to state that the door for speculation on Lunarmodule's event has now been opened but the point is really moot as it was not a singularity in any regards at its core; perhaps in the reported afermath only. :thinking: :shrug:
In so far as it may have provided the momentum for further investigation as the work now being done by Newbie, I think Lunarmodule's reported event has had a good and proactive result on the issue of CR123 use and safety considerations. JMHO
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WAVE_PARTICLE
Flashlight Enthusiast
Whoah! Newbie....you are on to something!!! This is the first time I heard of someone intentionally achieving battery venting in a controlled environment. We all owe you a great deal of thanks for doing this!
We are all learning soooo much from this urgently important safety issue.
So, the heat buildup is definately a contributing factor here....perhaps affecting the operation of the safety mechanisms in place on the battery.
GREAT JOB!
:thumbsup: WP
We are all learning soooo much from this urgently important safety issue.
So, the heat buildup is definately a contributing factor here....perhaps affecting the operation of the safety mechanisms in place on the battery.
GREAT JOB!
:thumbsup: WP
WAVE_PARTICLE
Flashlight Enthusiast
your findings may impact future designs for flashlights....heck everything else that uses lithiums!!!!
These initial results seem to suggest that using the body of the flashlight to aid in the removal of heat may not be a good idea in multicelled lights!
Come to think of it, the batteries on my SF-M6 get extremely hot after a long burn with a HOLA. There are 6 cells in a 2x3 in series config...... :sweat:
WP
These initial results seem to suggest that using the body of the flashlight to aid in the removal of heat may not be a good idea in multicelled lights!
Come to think of it, the batteries on my SF-M6 get extremely hot after a long burn with a HOLA. There are 6 cells in a 2x3 in series config...... :sweat:
WP
KingSmono
Enlightened
Wowzers!! 
Spectacular results! Thank you so much for all the effort Newbie.
I'm just curious... are there any documented cases of these cells exploding in cameras? Seems like that could be even MORE dangerous being right by the face and all... :shrug:
-Allen
Spectacular results! Thank you so much for all the effort Newbie.I'm just curious... are there any documented cases of these cells exploding in cameras? Seems like that could be even MORE dangerous being right by the face and all... :shrug:
-Allen
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
Doubtful that a camera will put enough drain on these cells to cause the problem. Remember, a flashlight drain is continuous, where a camera is multiple instantaneous, but very rapid draws, almost like flashamp testing.
I've run 123's in a Nikon camera on full auto, running as fast as it would recycle the film, (yes a FILM camera!) for a whole roll of film and they weren't even warm. The thing with most cameras that use 123's is that they use film, I'm not sure that any of the newer digitals, which conceivably could take thousands of shots, use 123's, but I don't think the draw is the same anyway.
Does anyone know if any current cameras do use 123's vs rechargeable packs, vs AA's?
Bill
I've run 123's in a Nikon camera on full auto, running as fast as it would recycle the film, (yes a FILM camera!) for a whole roll of film and they weren't even warm. The thing with most cameras that use 123's is that they use film, I'm not sure that any of the newer digitals, which conceivably could take thousands of shots, use 123's, but I don't think the draw is the same anyway.
Does anyone know if any current cameras do use 123's vs rechargeable packs, vs AA's?
Bill
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bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
Double post! Dang software!!
batterystation
Enlightened
Well that is better than results we have achieved here with 200+ cells. Heat and mismatch have everything to do with this. Best we have done here is a small venting with nothing spectacular besides. We did get a Sanyo to vent but that was all. I sure hope people understand that this is not a Battery Station issue alone. It cost a small fortune to get this thing UL approved and I look at this thread and feel like I have pissed away a lot of money. Unreal.
Codeman
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,687
bwaites said:
Maybe some flash units...I don't know that 123's would be an issue, but the potential is greater than in cameras.
chimo
Flashlight Enthusiast
Another great test! This would seemingly eliminate the flashlight spring as the root cause of the RVWF (rapid venting with flame , LWNAA (like we need another acronym)).
Two questions:
Is that a Max temp figure (191F)?
Is there any chance the tin-foil may have shorted to the springs?
, LWNAA (like we need another acronym)). Two questions:
Is that a Max temp figure (191F)?
Is there any chance the tin-foil may have shorted to the springs?
WAVE_PARTICLE
Flashlight Enthusiast
batterystation said:
I don't think that this issue is brand specific. I think this is a general safety issue among all lithium batteries.
Newbie is the only one who has been able to consistently reproduce these venting/explosions. He's doing a great job of slowly narrowing down the ultimate factors that contribute to these battery "failures".
I think Newbie will need some additional help/funding so that we can investigate this more and get more conclusive results. I'm not sure I speak for all, but I am ready to contribute financially to this investigation, because it would sure benefit me and my family.
WP
NewBie
*Retired*
Another thing to keep in mind:
I caused the failure using the PM6 bulb, and now, the Streamlight Scorpion/Tactical Light (TL-2)/NightFighter (NF-2) bulb. Also labeled as the Tactical Series bulb.
The recent scenario was with the Streamlight bulb as found earlier in this thread here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1491857&postcount=647
Here is a picture of the bulb:
I caused the failure using the PM6 bulb, and now, the Streamlight Scorpion/Tactical Light (TL-2)/NightFighter (NF-2) bulb. Also labeled as the Tactical Series bulb.
The recent scenario was with the Streamlight bulb as found earlier in this thread here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1491857&postcount=647
Here is a picture of the bulb:
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wptski
Flashlight Enthusiast
Did NewBie mention above what the current draw was from the two CR123A's?
BTW: Fine work NewBie! :twothumbs
BTW: Fine work NewBie! :twothumbs
