Self Defense with an LED

[IanH83]

Hi, I'm quite new but already I like this place. I just ordered a SF L1 and L0D CE. I don't want to go too crazy and spend huge amounts on lights but there is one more light I think I need and would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction.

As you may or may not know UK law is strict on weapons. In short anything designed as a weapon is illegal to carry in public. The only loophole is something which has another genuine purpose which you can claim you were carrying it for.

So.. I need something for self defence (I work in an off-licence (shop that sells alcohol) part time while studying) I was thinking of getting a kubotan (6 inch bar held in fist to hit pressure points, still being able to punch) but a better idea would be a light.

What I need is a reasonably cheap ($15-$50 though a bit more if it's my only option) torch that is 4 to 5 inches long, takes AA or AAA batteries (needs to be slim enough to hold like a kubotan, long enough to protrude from fist a bit), and can be used like a kubotan to basically hit people who try to attack me. It would also be a huge plus (maybe necessity) for it to have a good strobe function with a way of turning it on already in strobe mode. Tail end clicky straight into strobe would be ideal, no twisty, no turning it on and playing with it to get it to strobe. I don't want one of those crenelated strike bezels - that's a big no no. Obviously brightness isn't that important and build quality is important - though bottom of the list with regards to everything else I've mentioned. I'm leaning towards AAA as the idea is the pressure of the hit is focussed on a smaller area, so the head of the light can't be too wide.

So can anyone recommend any long, thin strobes?

Thanks in advance.

Ian

 

[jbosman1013]

the only thing that comes to mind is a surefire 6PD or E2D

 

[IanH83]

As I said a crenelated strike bezel is a big no no. It's too close to a weapon and besides it's more of a dagger than a kubotan. If I end up in a nasty situation with one of those the other guy could end up dead, with a strike bezel I go to prison for a very long time, no strike bezel and as long as they don't die I'm probably (legally) fine.

Plus I would rather not spend so much money on something that would be used to hit people (Though I'm sure with the build quality it would be fine).

Thinking about it slightly older model LEDs would be fine for this purpose, a 200 lumen strobe will probably disorientate me as much as the other guy.

 

[jbosman1013]

a fenix p3d or p2d, in turbo mode its just on and strobe.

 

[IanH83]

p2d is way too short. p3d is less than ideal but it seems there aren't many options for a long thin strobe. How do you turn the strobe of the p3d on?

I bet a torch shaped like a kubotan with an easy to use strobe would be a very good seller for self defence reasons with the right marketing.

Incase anyone is wondering, this is a pic of a kubotan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Kubaton.JPG

 

[paulr]

1. The whole flashlight-as-weapon thing is bogus, but if it starts catching on in the media anyway, it will come to the attention of the same stupid politicians who made the existing weapons laws, then you can bet flashlights will be banned / regulated / confiscated at airports just like real weapons are now. So the less publicity swirls around this stupid concept, the better off we are as flashaholics. The only flashlights worth considering for defensive purposes are large club-like ones such as the Maglite 6D (bonk!!!!).

2. As for the visual discomfort ("blinding") effect I have a suspicion that LED's don't work as well as incandescents just because there are nowhere near as many photons coming out the front of an LED light. Most of the battery power of an LED light is dissipated as heat by the metal casing and your hand--the rest comes out as visible photons. With an incan, pretty much ALL the energy comes out as photons (that's why they can make the casing out of plastic without it overheating) but most of them are invisible infrared. The infrared is of course useless for illumination and doesn't get counted in the lumen measurement. But getting it in the eyes still causes considerable discomfort, which is why you sometimes see folks sitting around campfires at night wearing sunglasses, to stop the infrared from the hot coals.

Anyway the whole thing is silly, if you're up against a determined attacker they will not be stopped by a light source, incan or led, blinking or not.

 

[Flashlike]

The Streamlight Batonlite (http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_batonlite.htm) might be a candidate, except for the fact that it takes the **stupid** N-cell batteries.
Never mind--it has a twist switch and no strobe mode.
It is a tough flashlight, though.

 

[tarponbill]

A bright enough light will temporarily blind and disorient an attacker, so if you got hold of one of the new rebel or CREE aluminum lights, like maybe the new ROV 3C 150 lumens version due out soon, that might be a good non lethal choice. Supposed to sell for $25 stateside. The military is now using light to temporarily blind and disorient attackers, green strobing laser light. I believe using a bright light to blind is becoming part of the LA police training with their new bright Pelican light. It works, try on yourself, while sitting down preferably.

If the light didn't stop it, then hit them with the light.

I just bought a 2AA ROV 85 lumens light for use with my Glock, it's almost bright enough, I reached my money limit before I reached the light limit, sigh.

 

[jbosman1013]

a bright light usually only works on night adapted eyes

 

[Wolfhound 9K]

the brightest LED that runs off of 2AA or 2AAA that I know of would be some of Fenix's CREE or new REBEL offerings ($55-65)

other than that, if you really want length - MagLite sells a 3AA 3W LED ($25). The MagLite is still very bright for night encounters and if you must have the length, I believe that it can stand up to at least a few serious usages

 

[tpw108]

Ian, are you certain you'd be legal using a strobe for self-defense? While most manufacturers label the flashing as an "emergency" mode, at least one has optimized the timing to produce a "disorienting strobe", and as other posters have noted, police forces are beginning to incorporate it into their duty lights for this reason.

Given that its purpose is to produce temporary incapacitation, it would seem to fall in the same category as pepper spray, albeit with zero persistence... unless the target suffers from photosensitive epilepsy.

 

[houtex]

Ican say first hand over a dozen times now that my Fenix L1dce has changed an attackers mind.Plenty of times the bright light in the eyes has made someone stop either all together or long enough to get the upper hand.I usually let them see me coming at them then light them up and move to the left or right and befor they know it i've got a hold of their arm or neck or maybe a bouncer or police officer has moved in for help.The light buys you a little time.

 

[IanH83]

Thanks for the replies.

paulr, I don't understand your comments. I basically want a flashlight the same dimensions as a kubotan. The kubotan is a tried and tested weapon, it has been used for decades by martial artists and police, and trust me, you don't want to end up in a fight with someone who knows how to use it unless you have a gun. Check the DHS new light thread + my links in it, a flashing led could potentially be more effective than a lot of "weapons".

flashlike, thank you! this looks nearly identical to a kubotan (edit: it even says it's a kubotan in the review!), if there are no other options this will do very nicely, the whole idea of a strobe coming out the end of my kubotan would have been nice but at the end of the day I wan't a kubotan that I can claim is a flashlight. It just would have been nice if I could strobe them as well. As you say the batteries aren't ideal but it's no problem, I can get N cells off ebay and I'm sure I won't need that many, it wont get a huge amount of use as a flashlight.

I will check out the maglite 3AA aswell but the batonlight looks best so far.

tpw108 you may be right but the fact that it's a flashlight as well would be good enough I think, I certainly can't see the police arresting me for having a flashlight, even if it does strobe. If I used it and seriously hurt someone in self defence and ended up in court then it's probably 50-50 if it has a strobe with the sole purpose of disorientating someone, but I think the strobe would at least reduce the chances of it getting that bad. It's probably the best option compared to all the other self defence items available to me.

Any other options? How about disregarding my other requirements and just a tail cap clicky strobe about the right length?

 

[IanH83]

The streamlight batonlite is discontinued! Has anyone got any idea where I can get one?

EDIT: Never mind, found some places to get it.

 

[paulr]

tpw108 you may be right but the fact that it's a flashlight as well would be good enough I think, I certainly can't see the police arresting me for having a flashlight, even if it does strobe. If I used it and seriously hurt someone in self defence and ended up in court then it's probably 50-50 if it has a strobe with the sole purpose of disorientating someone, but I think the strobe would at least reduce the chances of it getting that bad. It's probably the best option compared to all the other self defence items available to me.

The danger is not so much about prosecution if you're actually attacked and protect yourself somehow with a flashlight that's currently legal. Rather, it's that a bunch of hype is going to develop (indeed it already has) around occasional reports of someone using a flashlight to dissuade a bad guy, and those reports will get the attention of the very same politicians who got pepper spray banned, and then the manufacture or possession of the type of flashlights that we're all devoted to here for illumination purposes will fall under legislation or regulatory control just like pepper spray and pocket knives are controlled now. Maybe not in general surroundings but certainly in guarded ones like airplanes and courtrooms. At least in the US, you can't enter a govt building or board an airplane with even a tiny keychain knife on your keys, but so far they haven't (as far as we know--it's a recurring thread topic) hassled anyone about flashlights that aren't big enough to clobber someone. The last thing we need is to wake up those sleeping dogs, so it becomes impossible to fly with a flashlight unless you check it in as luggage, potentially adding hours to your travel time if you were otherwise going to only use a carry-on bag.

Politicians and bureaucrats may be evil, conniving little *******s but they are not in general stupid. If their goal is to create an atmosphere of defenselessness and dependence, then they want to ban anything that can make someone feel capable of defending themselves (whether it works or not). Therefore, if powerful flashlights begin to be thought of as a defensive implement, then they will ban powerful flashlights and make us all use M*g Solitaires that have to be registered with the government.

I'm also not convinced that any of the bad guys capable of being dissuaded with blinking flashlights like that were really dangerous to begin with.

 

[tpw108]

Only found one UK vendor, and the price seems rather steep.
http://www.niton999.co.uk/products.expanded.asp?query=441

Though if the GBP/USD exchange rate is still about 2:1, it would be about as expensive to pay for the intl shipping from over here.

Don't know when it was discontinued, but have you considered trolling the clearance bins of public safety supply stores? Or eBay?

 

[IanH83]

You may be right but I can't see the US or UK government banning flashlights for a while. Though what happens when technology advances enough that strobing flashlights are available that can seriously incapacitate someone?

To be honest I don't understand your point other than stating flashlights may be banned at some point.

I want a flashlight that can be used as a self defence weapon. If you are saying I shouldn't use it in this way in case they get banned preventing the people here from carrying them - well without meaning to sound arrogant I don't care. I would rather have a means of protecting myself. What it comes down to is whether I think it is reasonable to carry a flashlight for this purpose - I think it is and it is legal so I'll do it. If they are banned (which could happen in the future but only strobes - not normal constant on light - for a while) then I will use a constant on light. If they were banned aswell then I would find another object to use.

One last point, I will put money on normal (non strobe) flashlights being restricted in their use at some point in the future. Technology will advance to a point where a flashlight that will fit in your pocket will be massively powerful. At this point limits will be put on the power of flashlights either that you can own or carry in public.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that lasers are restricted, a UK legal 5mw laser has its uses. A 120mw green laser pen that can burn through electrical tape (UK illegal) will blind someone at a distance for life in a fraction of a second, and with time they will be cheap enough that kids could get hold of them (or irresponsible adults). Obviously it would be ideal if we could all be trusted to use these things, knives, guns etc. responsibly, but we can't. Humans are pretty stupid.

 

[IanH83]

Thanks tpw108, I found a US website selling it for $29.99 with apparently free international shipping. They look big enough to be reliable but I paid through paypal anyway so I should be ok. http://www.productwizard.com

 

[looman]

Hi, I'm quite new but already I like this place. I just ordered a SF L1 and L0D CE. I don't want to go too crazy and spend huge amounts on lights but there is one more light I think I need and would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction.

As you may or may not know UK law is strict on weapons. In short anything designed as a weapon is illegal to carry in public. The only loophole is something which has another genuine purpose which you can claim you were carrying it for.

So.. I need something for self defence (I work in an off-licence (shop that sells alcohol) part time while studying) I was thinking of getting a kubotan (6 inch bar held in fist to hit pressure points, still being able to punch) but a better idea would be a light.

What I need is a reasonably cheap ($15-$50 though a bit more if it's my only option) torch that is 4 to 5 inches long, takes AA or AAA batteries (needs to be slim enough to hold like a kubotan, long enough to protrude from fist a bit), and can be used like a kubotan to basically hit people who try to attack me. It would also be a huge plus (maybe necessity) for it to have a good strobe function with a way of turning it on already in strobe mode. Tail end clicky straight into strobe would be ideal, no twisty, no turning it on and playing with it to get it to strobe. I don't want one of those crenelated strike bezels - that's a big no no. Obviously brightness isn't that important and build quality is important - though bottom of the list with regards to everything else I've mentioned. I'm leaning towards AAA as the idea is the pressure of the hit is focussed on a smaller area, so the head of the light can't be too wide.

So can anyone recommend any long, thin strobes?

Thanks in advance.

Ian

Stuff that Ian ...........

Just keep a bottle of Paul Masons american white wine to hand (the one that looks like a hospital urinal) and crack the cheeky bugger over the head with that.

If you dont have a urinal wine bottle, any rose will do as a 2nd choice.

The other technique is to offer them a cigarrette and a mug of coffee. This helps to

A. calm the initial situation down a bit and
B. you then have a mug with their finger prints on, and a fag butt with their DNA on ))

 

[WadeF]

1Most of the battery power of an LED light is dissipated as heat by the metal casing and your hand--the rest comes out as visible photons. With an incan, pretty much ALL the energy comes out as photons (that's why they can make the casing out of plastic without it overheating) but most of them are invisible infrared.

Does anyone else find this statement to be completely backwards? I was under the impression LED's, being more efficent than incans, put out more light with less heat, while incans put out less light and more heat.

I think if you had an incan in a small flashlight that put out as many lumes as some of these over driven CREE LED's, it would get much hotter than the LED light.

My Surefire E2e puts out half the light of some of my LED lights and gets much hotter, and sucks the batteries much faster. The juice from those batteries being sucked down isn't coming out as more light, it's coming out as more heat from the incan. That's why LED's can be brighter than an incan and use less battery power, because they generate LESS HEAT.