SF unfinished business...

[Ray_of_Light]

I am a "collector" and big fan of SF but I have a "rant" and would like everybody opinion about it.

The lack of an SF reflectored "3 watters" has united many CPFers in a big "orphanage", seeking the ultimate light with a reflector and Luxeon 3 Watt LED.

While the new KL1 and L1 are big throwers, and the L4-L2-U2 lights are an act of class in the world of illumination "tools" using the 5 Watt LED, they simply "do not fit the bill", like a reflectored 3 watter could do for many general tasks.

The Alephs, the Gladius, the HDS are great lights using a 3W and reflector, and the beam is one of the best in consideration of the balance of throw and sidespill.

The QIII and the QIII mother are the commercial lights that more than others, mainly for their price, have become common among us.
I surprised myself in buying a QIII (75 lumens? I see only 30 from the stock light), but I cannot buy the mother, it's a resistored LED, way below any flashaholic standards...

So, would you like to see a reflectored KL1 - L1? I am wondering why SF left this business unfinished...

Anthony

 

[scudinc]

They've decided that the Lux III lights should be their long-throwing LEDs and the Lux V lights are their flood lights. You're forced to buy both if you want both attributes. Beyond being a clever move on their part, this is actually very nice for those of us who like throw and hate sidespill or vice versa.

 

[Mags]

But I think there is an even larger portion of us that want both.

 

[Size15's]

It seems to me that SureFire are taking optics extremely seriously. I hope that one of the serious developments will be an beam with some spill from a compact bezel. I am finding it hard to wait as well. Just as well there are other brands than SureFire for those who can't wait...

 

[JohnF]

Although I'm an 'old guy', I just bought my first 3 LED's:
1) SureFire L2 - bright, mostly flood
2) Inova T3 - all spot, no spill
3) HDS Basic 60 GT - pocket, good spot with some spill

I find it a nice 3 unit combo. Pray to God I don't pursue this any further, and these are the only 3 LED's at least till the 'next generation'.

John F

 

[357]

[ QUOTE ]
Mags said:
But I think there is an even larger portion of us that want both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You CAN get both with a good quality reflector. Yes, it is a compromise, but to me a BALANCED beam is useful for the majority of situations.

 

[Jayman]

Seems like a good alternative to Surefire would be the new Pelican M6 led LuxIII. Should have plenty of spill, as well as throw. Can't wait to get mine so I can see if it lives up to all the hype.

 

[JBL14]

[ QUOTE ]
JohnF said:
Although I'm an 'old guy', I just bought my first 3 LED's:
1) SureFire L2 - bright, mostly flood
2) Inova T3 - all spot, no spill
3) HDS Basic 60 GT - pocket, good spot with some spill

I find it a nice 3 unit combo. Pray to God I don't pursue this any further, and these are the only 3 LED's at least till the 'next generation'.

John F

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! I'm sort of an old guy myself, but I've purchased an L2 and T3 in the last two months. Great lights. I've also purchased a T2, T1, Q3, and Streamlight 4AA Luxeon (not to mention a Thor and a Husky 2.25 million CP spotlight). Say goodbye to your wallet, man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[JohnF]

<<Say goodbye to your wallet, man!>>

Speaking of that, just ordered a Gladius. Now, the Gladius next to the nightstand .380, the L2 perfect for camping due to its flood characteristic, the HDS Basic 60 for everyday in my pocket, the T3 for reach - what is next to drain my wallet?

John F

 

[Bob_G]

[ QUOTE ]
but I cannot buy the mother, it's a resistored LED, way below any flashaholic standards...

[/ QUOTE ]That's why in a usefulness/dollar ratio perspective, it's one of the best lights out there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif If it was regulated and $65, it would be just another nice light.[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering why SF left this business unfinished...

[/ QUOTE ]The polite answer might be that they're using their expertise to optimize the characteristics of a given LED. A more cynical answer might be that throw sells - just like horsepower, amp power, woofer size or whatever. I only own one SF (L2) and I seriously doubt I'll have another unless they change their tune. I got real excited when I saw the EL2, until I realized it was just a KL1 on a two cell body (I assume, not an expert on all things SF.)

While there are some here at these forums that think like you, my sense is that the majority is fascinated by throw above all else. And sure, anyone involved in this world needs a thrower, because we're guys, and that's just the way it is. But if it wasn't for pride in ownership, connoisseurship and all like that, I'd be looking to trade my 2x123 A3 for an A2 right now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Robocop]

I seem to feel that Surefire tends to develope their products with the needs of law enforcement and military needs above all else.
I do feel we as CPF members do make up a good portion of Surefires business however I feel we are small compared to all the officers and military sales for them. Almost every officer I work with has a Surefire of some sort and in most cases throw is what officers most look for.
When it comes to Luxeons I personally prefer a balance such as my Pelican M6 LED provides or even my modded ARC LS with reflector. I have one main light for throw and yes it is not even a Luxeon but a Surefire Commander.
I think Bob_G is correct when he says throw sales and Surefire sales a lot of lights. I was once a big fan of optics and modded many lights with the trusty old NX-05. This was due to me never really having a quality reflector for a Luxeon. Once I was able to experience a decent reflector (Pelican) I was hooked and never looked back.
I will say that the one and only reason I have not bought a new Surefire KL1 is due to the fact it does use an optic. I was so excited to learn of the new 3 watt model and was dissapointed to see that optic out front.
To sum it up Surefire caters to the majority and rightfully so as they are a very well known company. For now it seems the majority wants throw above all else.
It would really be nice if they would offer a seperate head unit with a reflector made for the 3 watters.

 

[Ray_of_Light]

Bob,

I generically agree that "throw" sells, and is the single most important parameters that people uses to buy lights.

Being flashaholic, you will slowly learn about the interaction between the beam charatteristics and your eyes. At this moment in time, and many others will confirm, I cannot conduct any indoor task using a Gen-4 KL1, or an Inova T3.
You need throw outdoor only. And the majority of the uses of a personal light are proximity tasks.

The next step in flashaholicism is having a light that can accomplish both tasks, by virtue of a well balanced beam; you can have a small light with balanced beam with a reflector and 3 W LED.
If you want to use a 5 Watter, than there is the U2: I love it, but is sometime too big.

I have both throwers and flood lights. I use flood 90% of the time. A policeman on duty mainly need throw. To fix your PC you need flood. To investigate your backyard at night, you need both.

And about resistored LEDs... they are a design mistake, made from somebody who just swapped an incandescent bulb with an LED. Bulbs are voltage driven, LEDs are current driven and require an appropriate drive circuit, that may also include a buck or boost converter. Unless is largely underdriven, a resistored LED may die at any time.

Regards

Anthony

 

[Techmedic]

While I do not own any of the above LED's , I do have a KL3 on order.
IMHO... The classic SF incandescent beam (semi-wide spot with sidespill) should be maintained throughout their product line, including LED's; meaning they should use a reflector designed for the LED to give the identical beam characteristics. If they need to use a combination of optics and reflector, then do it.

 

[cy]

ray o light, easy solution is drop in a reflector. L1 with so17 drop-in is one of my favorite lights.

beam is noticebly better than optic than came stock. Don't care for new surefire 3watt optics. has throw, but almost no spill.

 

[Bob_G]

Hi Anthony,

Interesting that we're talking about beam characteristics and the Q3M in the same posts. For me, the Q3/M have a very nicely balanced beam. Some may say they're too floody, but not me. My whole view of flashlights at this point is filtered through beam - it's the first thing and primary thing I think of on any light.

The way my eye sees beam is in terms of spill - how large and how bright. Apparently they're (spot and spill) mutually exclusive, at least in terms of present technological capability. And that's the problem - to get big throw, one must sacrifice spill (it seems) and that makes a light next to useless to me. Compare for instance a T2 to, say, a 4AA Propoly Lux. The T2 I find fairly useful at mid-distance, where the cone of light has expanded to a reasonable size (I think of the T series as "controlled" floods, not spots, since a spot must have some spill the way I see it.) The Propoly on the other hand is little more than a fun toy, as its spill is next to useless and the spot is so small as to be useless as well. But it sure does throw for the money /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yes, in certain, narrowly defined situations, throw is what's necessary, but most use by most civilians wouldn't qualify I think. A good friend of mine is a supervising sergeant on a police force for a ~200K city who works nights by choice. I've never asked her specifically about it, but it's obvious to me that at least from a personal safety perspective, indoors is her primary concern. If I was a cop and carried a personal light, an L2 it would be.

So we seem to be in basic agreement - beam is what counts, and a balanced beam is what works best for most people most of the time - whether they know it or not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I disagree with your negative view of the Q3M, but as stated, this is mostly because of price. I understand your concerns, at least if I'm translating correctly into my layman's understanding. That is, if the current available sufficient to drive the LED at low level is beneath the level "absorbed" by the resistor, then you got no light. So okay, don't use it in task critical situations, carry spare bats or whatever. What you get with the Q3M is a dual cell, 2-way switched Lux III with a beautiful beam - for 40 bucks. For your basic poking around the house/yard use that's hard to beat. If it was a spot, I wouldn't even consider saying such a thing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Beam counts.

 

[Ray_of_Light]

Bob,

I understand it isn't fair to compare, as an example, the SF E1L and the Nuwai Q3; it just happens that I would like to have an E1L with the Q3 beam.

I agree with CY and eventually I will add another modded light to my collection. The bottom question stays anyway, why SF left a vacuum not producing a reflectored 3 Watter.

In subjective terms, the SF L6 has better throw than INOVA T3, and is my choice when I need a LED thrower. Of course, if you make a "bang for the buck" consideration, the T3 win hands down. On the same line, I believe an Aleph 3 scores even better, but is not a commercial light. I haven't tried the HDS and the NightOps yet, but I have a feeling that the beam charateristics are well defined and balanced.

My personal preference is to have the beam shape and charateristic of the U2, that is a 5w, in the size of the E1L!

I do not have a "negative" opinion on the Q3 mother, I am thinking to buy one anyway. Consider that many experiences in the early days of power white LED left me doubtful about driving them directly.
I had so many failures due to batteries with too high voltage, bad LED heatsinking, too low LED Vf, too high ambient temperature, resistor failures (you know that a resistor has 2-3 K hours of life when used at spec?), that I decided to leave resistored LED... forever.

Anthony

 

[NetMage]

Seems like the TW4 might be good for you?

I like its flood nature much better than my KL1 and my HDS EDC for indoor use.

 

[The-David]

"Surefire KL1 is due to the fact it does use an optic"

I wish one of the "moders" would jump on this... I love Surefire lights, Just HATE the optic in the KL1. Not worth the $50 for a light that I wont use. Now modded to get rid of the optic, the runtime would be usefull.

 

[cslinger]

As far as the Kl1 head. Guys think about the cost to have it modded vs. the 12 bucks to throw a F04 beam shaper on it. The F04 works wonderfully, almost mini L2 kind of beam, and you still get the throw if you want/need it.

Chris

 

[Pwdrkeg]

I have the new L1, which from what I read is similar to the KL1, and I love
the throw the optics produce. However, I'm thinking of getting the F04
Beam Shaper and bring a little flood into my nights. Seems like a great
thing being able to have throw or flood when you want it.

This flashlight stuff is intoxicating ...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy23.gif