Shifting, steering and lugging, manual stick shift advice.

[cobb]

Been driving my new scion xa with 5 speed manual tranny. Seems it has a fairly low 1st gear and the rest are rather closely geared. I can easily put it in 5th at 45mph and it does about 2.5 grand.

The first thing I have had a problem getting use to was the fact the car idles at 500, but when you touch or tap the gas it goes to 1500rpm. My diesel mercedes i use to release the clutch at idle, then give it gas. I do that here and it stalls out.

Anyway, first problem I have found is that its difficult to shift into 3rd while on a curve. Seems i need to slow and upshift before making an off ramp or leave it in 4th. Could it be something twisting in the car and linkage or just me using the shift lever to brace myself and not position it right?

Also with securely attached ball under the gas petal, can I lug the engine down? What constitutes lugging? Can you lug an engine if you can barely move the gas petal? Could this cause you to lug it all the time?

I normally take it to 3grand before shifting to another gear. If it sounds a little throatie or I start to slow a bit, I upshift. With the mercedes it was hard to tell and unless it make no acceleration while floored or actually slowed with it floored, I would up shift.

The book says to shift from 3rd to 4th when you get up to 77mph. I find at 80 in 5th it pulls 4 grand as is. I cant imagine doing almost that in 3rd.

 

[dano]

What's the ball doing under the gas pedal?

"Lugging" is when you try to accelerate, but the engine is unable to produce enough torque to turn the front wheels (or rear wheels, depending on which are driven by the tranny).

Remember that Japanese engines are designed to be run at high RPM's. Some will "redline" at 9K (as compared to most American engines that redline at 6-7K). Also, shift points are dependent on the torque curve of the engine. The higher in the RPM band where peak torque occurs, that later you should shift, if not, you will "lug" the engine. Running the engine in 5th @45MPH would constitute lugging, IMO.

-dan

 

[bfg9000]

I can see why you are reluctant to wind it out, coming from a diesel car. But don't even look at the tach for part-throttle driving--instead just feel for the power to drop off then upshift to the next gear.

The reason this works is because every gas engine has different torque curves for each throttle opening. When the throttle is barely cracked, the torque curve tops out at fairly low RPM so you have to feel for it. OTOH diesel operates at wide open throttle all of the time (the secret of its high efficiency) and the "gas" pedal just injects more fuel...

Obviously for maximum acceleration at WOT you'll want to watch the tach. Many cars post the best numbers from shifting at the redline, while low-revving engines will actually be faster by shifting sooner (the redline is only a durability limit). Why don't they just put in a lower redline then? Because shifting while in a corner is best avoided and the extra RPM gives you more flexibility to not shift (and possibly break traction) at bad times.

Modern gasoline cars seem to develop best fuel economy with relatively large throttle openings (more like a diesel under those conditions--so the tennis ball is probably bad for economy) against a "too tall" gear to keep RPM down, so don't be afraid to shift relatively early. If the engine doesn't feel rough or actually protest by bucking, then it isn't lugging! Fortunately fuel-injected engines also don't lug until RPM is really low; generally too low to produce any power so you would have already downshifted.

 

[65535]

I always heard when it was ready to shift, it just hit that sweet tone, and boom next gear.

 

[gadget_lover]

Welcome to the world of small, high revving engines. If you look at the docs, you may find the torque curve is rather narrow. The engine will produce very little power outside those RPM ranges.

When you shift up, it's important that the engine still be turning fast enough to produce reasonable power in the new gear. You can lug the engine if you shift too early.

It takes time to get used to shifting at the right times. Eventually you'll do it by feel and seldom use the tach.

Daniel

 

[FlashKat]

Most Japanese cars you could shift between 3000-4000 rpm if going slow. 4000-6000 rpm if your are trying to accelerate and pass.
Redline all the way when racing!!!! Oh Yeah!!!!
This applies to mainly 4 cylinders.

 

[Dawg]

I feel for you Cobb. It is a difficult thing to come off of the low end torque of a diesel to a Japanese 4 banger. You will get used to it, but like others have said. You have to keep the rpms up on those little 4 cylinder gas jobs.

 

[3rd_shift]

That was the case with my 85 nissan pickup truck with a 4 cylinder and 5 speed manual.
If not reallly trying to accelerate, then I would go ahead and upshift and let it coast along.
If going up a hill or going into a curve, I let the engine rpms come up some until there was power and give it some gas, then once it got loud and vocal, I would then upshift.

The lazy nature and low end torque of a diesel is quite different from a relatively free revving gasser.
If just putting along down the street to the grocery store, a gas 4 cylinder often has the oomph at the lower rpm range.
If strong acceleration is needed, then more throttle and rpms are needed with a gasser to get things done.

 

[raggie33]

one time i had to drive a truck with out a clutch pedal it sucked the slave cylinder was messed up.

 

[JimmyM]

This applies to mainly 4 cylinders.

HA! My stock Denali does this with its 6.0 litre.
When towing a trailer in the Adirondaks, there's a long hill going up to Ticonderoga where I can hold the pedal on the floor and it just hovers around 5300-5400 RPM while locked down in second gear. It for minutes at a time.
Bwaaaa haaa haaa.
I'm single handedly responsible for a significant portion of the US gasoline consumption.

 

[cobb]

Thanks.

FIrst, I have found the gas petal is too easy to press, hince the ball. It takes little to no effort and for the first few days of driving I would remove my right shoe and tilt my foot using my big toe to work the gas petal. My mercedes you had to stand on the petals to move them. This car, they are easy to press, too easy.

Second, From what I can read and experience, the more throttle you give, the more gas is burned, so second idea of the ball is to increase fuel economy and decrease wear. I basically drive it at the same 1mph per second acceleration rate as the benz had. Also, when I reved it 4 times to 5 grand in the parking lot to hear the engine, I swear the gas meter moved a bar.

I know we are comparing a missle ro a snail in regards to the two cars. The benz had a 4 cylidner 2.5 liter 60hp motor with 4 speed manual tranny and no od on a 4 thousand pound car. The scion has 109 hp on a 2 thousand and something car with 5 speeds.

It does seem the torque band moves with throttle and 2-4 grand seems the best, although Ive tried to rev it the least required to move. Sure it can haul ***, but I am trying to be careful since its new. Although I have upshifted from 5th to 4th on some grades and to help give me better speed/torque for merging and on/off ramps. I tried today shifting before turns and and it seemed to work better. Just got to get use to getting it in 2nd after a turn or reving it before hand. Also reving it to 2 grand before releasing the clutch on a up hill grade or it may stall out if I am not careful. Ive stalled it out a few times as I will slip up and try to release the clutch at idle then gas it, vs gassing it, then releasing the clutch.

This car I just shift as I go. The benz I would release the clutch in 1st, then shift to second, rev it a little, then 3rd by 20mph and leave it til I hit 40 and then to 4th gear. If I needed to take off a bit quicker I would launch it in 1st,but that usually resulted in the front raising off the ground a few inches, the rear lowering and maybe breaking traction. The gears were spaced out too far to really drive agressive vs the scion.

I will see if I can find a vacuum meter and install one for a few days. Looks like it has a throttle cable vs drive by wire and will see if i can find my old one as I have not had any luck looking at most auto stores.

 

[cratz2]

The book says to shift from 3rd to 4th when you get up to 77mph. I find at 80 in 5th it pulls 4 grand as is. I cant imagine doing almost that in 3rd.

It actually suggests 77mph as the 3rd to 4th shift point? Is that for absolutely MAXIMUM speed?

When does it suggest to shift from 4th to 5th? 105?

I've had a couple sportier 4 cylinder cars, but they were quite a big more powerful than the Scions. They had plenty of flexability when loafing around the city but to really keep things at a boil, they needed to be in the proper gear... much more important than a 4.3L Chevy, 4.6L Ford or 3.5L BMW engine.

 

[luxlunatic]

From what I can read and experience, the more throttle you give, the more gas is burned,


Although this is true, engines are much less efficient at lower RPMs and are wasting some of the energy contained in the fuel due to volumetric inefficiencies(air and fuel not moving freely through the engine), whereas at slightly higher RPMs, the engine uses more fuel yet it is able to extract more energy from the fuel being burned, increasing efficiency.
I have noticed this in my car(2000 Mustang 4.6L Manual, 53K miles), on the freeway I get much better milage if I cruise at 2500 rpm than at 2000 rpm, about 1.5/2 MPG better.
Now of course, if I go spinning my motor up to 5500 rpm at every upshift, my fuel needle will move quickly towards E!!

 

[greenlight]

you had to stand on the petals to move them..

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

I feel ya, Cobb. Going from my Cummins powered Dodge which will take off at idle in fourth gear, to my high-strung turbo Mr2 that likes 2000+ rpms(but has no problem launching at redline either), is quite a change. You might add more throttle return springs to the throttle body in the engine compartment and get rid of that tennis ball. Also, don't be afraid to rev the engine, it's designed to handle it. That said, I've had no problems putting along at 35mph in fifth gear @ around 1500 rpms, in most of the 4 cylinder cars I've had in my life. Studying the torque and hp curves for your engine can tell you a lot. Good luck.

:buddies:

 

[cobb]

Update, ended up taking it to the dealer to take a look at it. They kept it for 5 hours and said nothing was wrong, however they were all difficult to shift and can take a bit of force to get it into gear. Regardless, its notically easier to shift since they returned it to me. Said it was fine shifting at 3 grand.

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

While it MIGHT be true that you need to drive it easy since it's new...

Just be sure to get the oil changed on time (or even before) and drive by ear/feel.

All I know for an absolute FACT is if I get out of my Cummins Ram 2500 and into my Bosses 5.4L gasser F250 you gotta HAMMER that 5.4L to make any serious power.

You going from a cranky old diesel to a rippy new gasser WILL take a bit of getting used to. But I'd say drive it like it WANTS to be driven.

 

[Empath]

If you pay attention, this will get you through it.

A 5 speed?

Do like this:

Uhhhhhhhnnnnnnnn

Uhhhhhhhhnnnnnnnnn

Uhhhhhhhhnnnnnnn

Uhhhhhnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Uhhhnnnnnnmmmmmmmmmmm............

Anyway..... that's the way I'd do it.

 

[cobb]

Playboy, exactly. I think if I take it to 5 or 7 grand before shifting gears it would go right into gear without touching the clutch. It doesnt reach red til 8 grand and it goes past 9, but does not list a 10 on the tach.

Empath, take it to 7 grand in first, 5 in second, 5 in third, then shift it in 5th.

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

I don't know that I'm RIGHT about anything!

I know my Ram redlines at 3K, and does it's best work at between 15-18.

I don't recall the redline in the Ford, but serious urge starts at 3K.

My buddy has a 4 cylinder Toyota truck with no tach as I recall. But even if it does THAT truck is STRANGE. It doesn't grunt worth spit, nor does it buzz. Somewhere in between, and you drive it by feel/sound.

If the engine doesn't get buzzy in your Scion, drive it by feel. You SHOULD be able to tell if you are lugging it or redlining it by how it sounds/feels.

Maybe shifting short will be better, or maybe it just wants to rev a bit.

I got to drive a Toyota Matrix XR at one point. It had an auto tranny (which was ALL WRONG for that engine). It would willingly buzz up, but the tranny strangled it. As it happens, if you really wanted to boogy you had to shift manually and rev that puppy!