Should we go to war?

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Rotten Ron

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This country would be a better place if all the people who dont like this country were gone.
 

Silviron

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Darell, you have a few good points, but I think your view is a bit naive (or perhaps intentionally abstruse???). Of course I didn't mean that they would come and charge their batteries without paying, I mean they would come and completely take over our energy rich and very highly food productive but defenseless nation.

Are you (all) aware that we currently get only 2% of our oil from Iraq (part of the oil for food and medical supplies deal), and before the embargo only got ~6% from them? And that just before the embargo, the price of a gallon of gasoline was higher than it is at this very moment (at least where I live, although I did see some outrageous prices on my "vacation" a couple of weeks ago.)

And that if they ever get their act together in Venezuela (or even here for goodness sake), we don't need Iraq at all.

Of course the really "funny" thing is, you and I are in ABSOLUTE agreement as to the goal. It is just that I'm less inclined to ignore the realities of human nature and economics.
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Ron: The "Knee-jerk" part of me agrees with you, but the analytical part of me disagrees. What has made the USA the greatest nation in history in the shortest time, is the fact that we ALLOW and even consider dissenting opinions. In the long run, those with the best ideas that exist within the boundaries set by human nature, economics and the physical sciences will succeed. It may take a while, but it will happen.

I do wish that those who say they are leaving because they didn't get their way (the Alec Baldwins, the Susan Sarandon's and the Barbra Streisands etc. would just shut up and go, but those that REALLY want to make the country better are welcome, even if they disagree with me.

Or, did I mis-understand you and you meant that all those pseudo-Americans, "green carders", "student visaers" and illegal aliens that are actively or tacitly trying to destroy the country should be gone (one way or another)? Then I fully agree.
 

Darell

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Originally posted by Wits' End:
It seem to me that if flames can lock a thread on a hot topic like Pro-Life. Flames should lock this thread also. But I'm just a Flashaholic
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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to agree. If I had been paying attention to this thread earlier, I may well have done the dirty deed. But hey, maybe we've moved past that and can have some civil discussion now?
 

Wits' End

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So as a Civil engineer should we build some bridges?
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I'll state my lowly opinion. I'm against any war, killing, and death in general. But as a citizen of the US I will support the leaders that God has given us (US). If I agree with them it is easier though. Notice I don't say if I do or don't in this case as it isn't really important now, but it will be when I vote.

BTW continuing (sort of) off-topic energy, I believe the President did mention Hydrogen fuel as a new R&D thrust. I was sleeping during the SOTU, I wanted to hear. But I do have to sleep sometime
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ikendu

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Hmmm. Just a few observations.

Not being for war now does not mean you are for weak defense.
Being for energy independence does not mean you are for weak defense.
Not agreeing with the foreign policy of the President does not equate to hating America.

The issues that face us are not simple. If we want to do what is best for our people, we'll need to read, learn, study and think about what goes on in the world. All too often, we in America are very busy with our own lives, letting someone else set our policies. Some times...those someone else's are following priorities that benefit certain special interests without worrying about the consequences or the impact on the American people.

If you've got strong opinions about some aspect of this...good! Direct that energy to learning about the situation and help us all to understand it better so we can support the best policies.

Here on CPF, we don't just recommend one flashlight or another because our gut tells us to or one of our elected officials likes it. We study, test, compare and seek the opinions of others with experience. Let's apply some of that same process to the rest of our world.
 

MichiganMan

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BTW, lets also not forget that Saddam lost a war that he started and signed a treaty in exchange for the end of hostilities. In it he promised to do certain things that the UN told him he had to do. He has not complied with these requirements.

Everything else, true/false/or in between is irrelevent to the discussion. His blatent violation of the conditions require that the UN act to enforce their own terms, otherwise UN declarations are not worth the paper they're written on.
 

Monsters_Inc

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Please don't invoke God into this discussion. God did NOT instigate your nation's leaders, nor do you have Him on your side on the war.

Truth be told, there aren't too many nations in this world supporting USA's action/stance on this situation. Maybe that's been skewed by the percentage of Americans on this forum voicing their opinions.
 

Charles Bradshaw

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You forgot the Subhumans, Silviron. I am one of THOSE. I am merely acknowledging in fact, how my kind have been treated.

The don't ask, don't tell US Military policy, was specifically intended to weed out the Subhumans much more effectively, since a Security Clearance is needed for most anything in the Military.

You have to be Human to be a Citizen. Only Heterosexuals are Human. figure it out.
 

EMPOWERTORCH

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The war sdeems pointless because there are far worse things going on in Africa (Zimbabwe) and the former Yugoslavia (massive ethnic cleansing etc...) that we should be all aware of...it would appear that the war is a way of these nations hiding thier dirty linen.
 

MicroE

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Three Cheers for the CPF Cafe!
I am enjoying the discussion and really appreciate the discourse.
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Reasonable, intelligent people can meet here and discuss hot-button topics in a rational manner.

I like to hear opinions and information from people that are different from my own. If everybody agreed with me I would be bored and I would leave.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled War.....
---Marc
 

Max

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I'm in favor of disarming Iraq. If Saddam is willing to do it volutarily, I suppose that will suffice. That's the pledge we made. Personally I'd rather see him deposed. The world, the middle east, and the Iraqi people would be better off without him.
 

DieselDave

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Originally posted by Onyx:
Please don't invoke God into this discussion. God did NOT instigate your nation's leaders, nor do you have Him on your side on the war.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When did God tell you this? How did he tell you, burning bush, bolt of lightning, sent an angel, how? Thanks for the heads- up no one here had received the official word.

Originally posted by EMPOWERTORCH:
The war seems pointless because there are far worse things going on in Africa (Zimbabwe) and the former Yugoslavia (massive ethnic cleansing etc...) that we should be all aware of...it would appear that the war is a way of these nations hiding their dirty linen.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are aware of them but the U.S., best described as the 911 force to the world can’t do it all! All the peace lovers can work on those two countries. They can shower them with flowers and love to stop the genocide.

I am disgusted, I would say shocked but after a while it just becomes disgust by all the countries, no, it’s not really countries it’s the individuals in those countries that want to beat us up for going after Iraq. These are the same countries we have defended and lost American lives for, sent HUGE amounts of aid to and helped liberate. Our elected officials with citizen’s input set foreign and domestic policy. Iraq is on the top of the list right now and every other country will have to wait. Don’t worry, the U.S. will continue to take care of our two faced allies and will stand side by side with them in their time of need. The U.S. provides 60% of ALL the worlds aid but we set our own policy. Germany, France, Australia and others let me say we are busy at the moment but if you remain on hold we will get to your issues just as soon as we can. The really sad part is we were stupid enough to help Iraq in times past and now they want to kill us. We kind of have a tradition of that with middle eastern countries.
 

MicroE

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Germany, France, Spain, Australia and others let me say we are busy at the moment but if you remain on hold we will get to your issues just as soon as we can.[/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dave---Let's be nice to Spain, please.
Spain has stated that they are prepared to stand with the US in the Security Council.

Spain has also said that it will go into Iraq if the US deems that this is required (with or without UN approval).--Marc
 

DieselDave

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Made the edit and on the topic. I am surprised by Germany and Australia. I trained some German flyers about 8 years ago and was frankly impressed for the most part. I had considered AU our best ally after GB.
 

Anarchocap

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Originally posted by darell:
I'm not implying that the pending war is exclusively about oil. But is there anybody who thinks that oil has _nothing_ to do with it? Hope not.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my goodness, oil has 100% to do with it! How the heck did we get here to begin with? Gulf War I was because as Iraq was amassing its troops on the Kuwaiti boarder to settle a century old land dispute, the US saw it on our spy satellites, sent our diplomat to ask Saddam what the scoop was, he told us, and we didn't say NO!

Now "W" is talking about WHEN, not IF we take over Iraq's oil fields, the money associated with that will be held in trust! Can you say the United States Territory of Iraq?!

Originally posted by darell:
Countries with energy (let's call that energy OIL) hold some cards, do they not? There are contries that wouldn't even be blips on our RADAR if it were not for their oil reserves. These countries effect our foreign policy in a way that would be laughable (I mean if it weren't so scary) if we had no need for the carrot that they dangle in front of us. My feeling is that if we didn't need energy from elsewhere, we wouldn't get into some of the jambs that we keep falling into.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes they do. And it just so happens that the majority of these OPEC countries are headed by Kings, Dictators, and various Fascists. Now isn't that irony at its best?!

You know what the saddest part is? We've had a real breakthrough here about 14 years ago. It was the beginnings of "Cold Fusion". But because it was all politics about the findings, essentially it was a chemical reaction being evaluated by Nuclear Physicists that produced no verifiable nuclear reaction, the individuals who may have invented the most amazing discovery of our time were shunned out of the US.

Originally posted by Rotten Ron:
This country would be a better place if all the people who dont like this country were gone.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Ron, again your ignorance of this country and its history have gotten the best of your eloquent writing skills.
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I am personally offended by this statement. I consider myself the ultimate patriot. I love this country, not for what it has become, but for the reasons it came into existence. If you would read the Declaration of Independence, not only would you find that it talks about the consent of the people, but a majority things we were upset with (how appropriate) King George back then are things the Federal Government is doing today. Plus we could add a nice list of stuff.

If this country is so great and amazing and etc., how can it be that we are forced into slavery to potentially die to defend it? We are not even supposed to have a standing army! The reasons for that were to prevent exactly what is happening now, imperialism and international entanglements. Forcing people to think or do things against their will is the antithesis of a country based on Liberty.

So Rotten Ron, I guess based on your post, I should say I wish all those who are ignorant about the foundation of this country along with the principals of liberty and the need for consent of the people should leave the country now.

Certainly it would be a better place here if those of ignorant mind and fascist tendancies were shipped on a slow boat to ... nowhere maybe?
 

Greta

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I would like to clarify my stance. I am not a warmonger. If I had a choice, I'd choose not to go to war. But the bottom line is that there is no choice at this time. Did you all LISTEN to our president last night? Did you HEAR his list of reasons why Saddam must be taken out of power?

Max posted this:

I'm in favor of disarming Iraq. If Saddam is willing to do it volutarily, I suppose that will suffice. That's the pledge we made. Personally I'd rather see him deposed. The world, the middle east, and the Iraqi people would be better off without him.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Max... I think that's pretty much what we'd all like to see. It's sure as hell what I would like... if I had a choice. But how long are we supposed to give him? He's had 12 years already! He has thumbed his nose at us and funded terrorist groups that are running around the WORLD raising hell! Yes people, this is a WORLD issue!!!

When are you all going to wake up and see that? How about if we cut to the chase and execute 3000 of your citizens and destroy one of your cities just for kicks and giggles? You think that it's not going to happen to you? Think again!

These people are extremists! They will trample and destroy and rape nations until they are the only ones left standing. If you all want to kick back and let them own you then by all means, knock your socks off. WE choose not to be doormats and FINALLY we have a president who doesn't just pay lip service.

For 12 years. we've been listening to, "You better stop it, or else!"... "We really mean it!" ... But we never did anything and Saddam has had a grand time laughing his *** off at us, knowing full well that we and the UN will do NOTHING!! Well guess what? Screw the UN and anyone else who wants to continue to pay lip service! When are you all going to say "Enough!"? You said it on September 12, 2001... how come you backed down? What will it take?

MichiganMan wrote:

His blatent violation of the conditions require that the UN act to enforce their own terms, otherwise UN declarations are not worth the paper they're written on.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems to me that the UN is the one bullying everyone into backing down. We're doing what we agreed to do. We are standing behind our word and the word of the UN. Where is everyone else who signed up for the same thing? How good is your word now?

Everyone here has their opinions on this. I've seen very few alternatives posted that are actually logical. What I find most disturbing are the opinions that are based on misinformation or lack of information. *shaking my head*
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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Originally posted by Josh:
I really link Bush needs to move slower and think a little on the repercussions of rushing in to things. I'm not saying NO WAR, I am saying think and plan and act accordingly.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rush??? I think we're creeping along....

Shows how different people can think!

I don't march lock-step with GW. But of two Evils (the other being Gore) GW is definitly less Evil.

And instead of our honorable US Soldiers getting killed... NUKE 'EM!!!
 

Max

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Originally posted by Sasha:
Max posted this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm in favor of disarming Iraq. If Saddam is willing to do it volutarily, I suppose that will suffice. That's the pledge we made. Personally I'd rather see him deposed. The world, the middle east, and the Iraqi people would be better off without him.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Max... I think that's pretty much what we'd all like to see. It's sure as hell what I would like... if I had a choice. But how long are we supposed to give him? He's had 12 years already!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly I thought this "last chance" round of UN inspections was an indulgence that neither Iraq nor the UN deserved. It was my greatest fear that Iraq and the inspectors would play hide and seek all winter long and then we would have missed our opportunity to attack in favorable weather conditions.

My prediction is that the war begins next month, I hope it is with a US led coalition outside the UN.
 

mst3k

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How about this as a first assault. It seems to me that Bush and company has publically stated that we have nothing against the Iraqi people. They seem to be mainly interested in taking out Hussain. Seems to me a good Seal team and a Sniper or two could handle that job easily. After that is done, then we wait for the rumbles to see if war is really necessary. Perhaps it still would be, don't know.
 
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